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Worldwalker_Pure
Feb 27, 2015




'Altered human using their powers to take down the organization that created them' reads as incredibly Kamen Rider. Like, an Exomorph Invasive is basically just Takeshi Hongo.

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Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


It sounds incredibly a lot of things, because it is a lot of things. It's a genre in and of itself.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.



Worldwalker_Pure posted:

'Altered human using their powers to take down the organization that created them' reads as incredibly Kamen Rider. Like, an Exomorph Invasive is basically just Takeshi Hongo.

Dave Brookshaw, the initial developer and architect of Deviant, posted a partial list of characters on the Onyx Path forums that were core enough inspirations that he mandated the rules had to be able to build them. They range from Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde to Orphan Black's Project Leda to Max from Videodrome to Kamen Rider to Tetsuo to V (for Vendetta).

In terms of classic literary monster inspirations, if Promethean is Frankenstein's monster, Deviant is Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde and the Invisible Man. But it's like Hunter: the Vigil: it's built for flexibility and breadth of concept.

I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Oct 6, 2019

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Canít wait to see what kind of mental illnesses and/or sex stuff WW/OPP handle with their trademark blend of nuance and subtlety this time!

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


And I second the "this is a bit premature". Eric (my successor as Deviant developer) has already signalled that he's going to be tweaking some mechanics in response to kickstarter feedback.

I mean, if you insist on fellating my ego, Signs of Sorcery for nMage is right there, un-Fatal & Friends'd.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Deviant has the potential to be good if they throw out Autorgic, Cephalist, and the other terms so goddamn loving dorky that my brain refuses to retain them

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Ah, thanks folks!

And... yeah. "These are the terms that the conspiracies use for us. We hates them, they're shite."

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

They're loving stupid from first principles. Why do a bunch of cults and corporations and spookshows have a common loving vocabulary? Why is it always broken Greco-Latin? Throw it the gently caress out.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Proper: The Nouning is the only thing that has remained the same in every age and every place of the WoD.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Halloween Jack posted:

They're loving stupid from first principles. Why do a bunch of cults and corporations and spookshows have a common loving vocabulary? Why is it always broken Greco-Latin? Throw it the gently caress out.

This is why Demon's Proper Nouns are the best: they're literally common English words that describe the thing they mean, just with some special added significance.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Halloween Jack posted:

They're loving stupid from first principles. Why do a bunch of cults and corporations and spookshows have a common loving vocabulary? Why is it always broken Greco-Latin? Throw it the gently caress out.

It's Charles Darwin and other early scientists - Clade, Variation, adaption, etc. Origins are called Origins because it's an Origin of Species reference.

More thought goes into these vocab choices than you think. Mage's Greek words for Indian concepts and Indian words for Greek ones lexicon can stun a horse if you print it out and has to be kept in a spreadsheet so editors can look up things like obscure plurals, but it's exceptionally complicated (and mages are the sort to invent all kinds of technical language for phenomena only they can sense let alone care about). Demon had "just use plain loving English" as it's vocab "thing", based on the characters being able to perfectly translate anything.

Deviants use "Born", "Volunteered", "Mutant", "Cyborg", etc for themselves. And its lexicon is one of the shorter ones.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Dave Brookshaw posted:

More thought goes into these vocab choices than you think.
More's the pity.

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.


I am aware that there are some folks who say that I am "brokebrained" when it comes to RPGs and especially to running them. I admit, I can't always wholly deny that, either. So I'm going to grit my teeth and return to the scene of the crime. Because the game that broke me wasn't Blades In The Dark. It wasn't even Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition. No. It was Shadowrun Fourth / Twentieth Anniversary Edition. (Yes, the name's already a mess.)

So, after my group got tired of 5th Edition D&D, Shadowrun seemed like a good one to try. It could offer sandbox-style city settings with meaningful interfaction politics for the social types, exciting gun fights and lots of gear porn for the murderhoboes, lots of interacting systems to create player niches that interlock with each other, a decent number of sample adventures, and it's been going for 20 years, how bad can it be?

I was a fool. I was a complete fool.

After a few sessions of my head in my hands at gunfights ending in one shot, tedious sieges and abandoned encounters, frantic flipping through the rulebook for even simple cases, combat rules requiring everything specified down to the metre when the PCs can literally go anywhere, people with wired reflexes being unable to run from cover to cover without inexplicably stopping in the middle, corporate executives using cyberware and commlinks that could be hacked by a child, sample adventure characters with guns they couldn't use, the permanent threat of police or corporate authorities who are too weak to actually threaten the PCs except by GM fiat force majeure, and a goddamn undercover infiltrator with no skill in Deception, and a bunch of Shadowrun grognards on the Dumpshock forums telling me that everything I was doing was wrong; I threw up my hands and gave in, and it put me off RPGing itself for several months.

I didn't know, but I was witnessing the start of the rot. That and WAR, the famously bad supplement which included corps bringing the Matrix to the jungle by strapping satellite uplinks to jaguars. The rot went on with Court of Shadows, the supplement that jumped the shark on a hot-rodded racing camel, and Shadowrun Anarchy, the storygame-style Shadowrun written by someone who had literally no idea what story games are except that they're "light on rules" and therefore made one by just deleting a bunch of rules.

And, now, finally, the foundation has cracked.



I'm not going to say that Sixth World (aka Sixth Edition, but called Sixth World.. for no particular reason other than possibly to piss off the developers of the Dungeon World hack for Cyberpunk which is also called Sixth World) is bad. I haven't the experience of those Dumpshock grognards. What I can say is that they also don't like this one, that several Shadowrun podcasts have abandoned it, and even the current maintainer of Chummer, an excellent character generation tool for Shadowrun which must have taken months of work and dutiful effort to keep up-to-date, wrote that "there are enough vagaries and conflicting rules that I want nothing to do with it".

I'm not going to worry about the setting. It's Shadowrun. You're a bunch of guys and gals who are so hard up and downtrodden that they sell themselves to anonymous corporate bidders to do dangerous and illegal work that will probably have them killed, but inexplicably are the most talented and powerful people in the world, and doing this makes them incredibly cool people and gives them enough wealth to buy a small country. Beh.

So, it's traditional that we start with character generation, which is a kind of awkward place to start on this system, but what the heck. First of all, we're asked to think about our character's history and how they feel about the darker side of the streets - partly because it can include stuff which might upset players, so this allows some boundaries to be established. Good start. Our first step in the system, though, is to take the five character priorities - Metatype, Attributes, Skills, Magic and Wealth - and rate them in order. The higher an area is rated, the more points or other stuff you get to spend. Here's the table so you can follow along at home.



There are eight attributes: Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, Willpower, Logic, Intuition, and Charisma. There are also four "special attributes": Edge, Magic, Resonance, and Essence. The system is based on a dice pool of Stat + Skill, so you add your stat to your skill and that's the number of dice (d6s) you roll, with a 5-6 being a success; if you get more than half of your dice showing 1's, that's a "glitch". Most skills have a "primary" Stat that they're usually combined with, and a "secondary" stat that can be used in certain unusual conditions.

Body determines your number of hit points - sorry, "Physical Condition Monitor Boxes" - and is also used to resist damage. It's also used for some unusual cases like working out how much you can carry or fighting in grapples.

Agility, as you've probably guessed, is the go-to stat for all the physical skills, including all the combat skills. It can also affect how fast you move.

Reaction and Intuition I'm putting together, because they're together 90% of the time in the book; they're added to calculate your defence pool against most attacks, and your initiative. Outside of that, Reaction is used for a few cases of dodging area effects and for piloting vehicles; Intuition is used for sensing motives, recalling information, and is the secondary stat for most of the mental skills.

Strength is used in a few cases where Body is also used, and calculates your unarmed combat damage, but doesn't resist damage. Meh.

Willpower determines the number of non-lethal HP.. "Stun Condition Monitor Boxes", you have; is used for some rolls related to sensing motive and keeping cool, resists some statuses, and resists magic.

Logic is the go-to stat for most of the mental skills. It's also used when setting explosives (ok) and when firing a gun from a vehicle (huh?). Apparently Logicís needed to work out the angles and geometry of firing a gun from a vehicle, which I could buy if it referred to artillery, but itís actually just an obvious fudge so that players who want to play riggers donít get screwed by multiple attribute dependency.

Charisma is, well, charisma. It's the go-to stat for the social skills, and is also used for some forms of spell casting.

Essence is the stat that every cyberpunk RPG but no cyberpunk story has that determines how much cyberware you're allowed to install. Installing cyberware lowers your Essence, and it can't go to 0; lower essence also makes it harder for allies to heal you, and also makes you more vulnerable to certain forms of attack (I admit I find it kinda hilarious that a character with a bunch of cyberware is more vulnerable to being killed by vampires because they have less blood left, but I gotta admit it makes perfect sense) The only problem with Essence is that there are no rules, whatsoever, for what your starting Essence score is. Fan boards will tell you that it is 6, but that's the only place you'll find out.

Magic and Resonance are special stats that are only used by mages and technomancers respectively, and that represent the strength of their powers in those fields.

Edge is...

Well, ok. Imagine that somebody jumped on Fate Points in a dark alley and force-fed them whiskey until they were barely able to stand, and you've got an idea of how Edge works. We'll go into this more later, but essentially, any time something plays into your strengths, or you play into someone else's weaknesses, you get a point of Edge. Then, you spend the points of Edge to get boosts on your rolls or take special actions. This is intended to replace a whole bunch of more complex mechanics from previous editions. For example, armor and weapons don't have damage reductions, clip sizes, rates of fire, and so on any more; they just have Attack and Defense ratings (AR and DR) which are compared to work out Edge.

So for example: Joe Average (Body 2 Reaction 2 Intuition 2) is naturally nervous for his safety in firefights, so he puts on Full Body Armor (+5 DR), a Helmet (+1 DR) and a Riot Shield (+1 DR). Joe's Defense Rating is his Body plus his Armor, so it's 9. Andy rear end in a top hat (Agility 2 Firearms 4) shoots him with the cheapest gun in the game, a 3D-printed Streetline Special (Attack Rating 8). This does not mean that he rolls his Attack Rating! Oh, no. He rolls Agility + Firearms, 6 dice, and gets 4 successes. Joe, likewise, doesn't roll his Defense Rating. He rolls Reaction+Intuition, 4 dice, and gets 1 success. Andy has more successes, so Andy has hit. Joe therefore takes damage equal to the base damage of the Streetline Special (2) plus Andy's net successes (3). He rolls his Body to resist the damage, and gets 1 success which subtracts 1 point of damage. Joe takes 4 damage to his Physical Condition Monitor and now has only 5 points left, and since he took more damage than his Body, he is knocked prone too. He looks confusedly down at his unscatched armor and frantically hides beneath his riot shield.

At that point, Andy's buddy Smasher (Agility 2 Close Combat 3) charges at Joe with a 15 nuyen motorbike chain. The chain has AR 5 at close range. Joe's DR is more than 4 greater than that, so Joe gains a point of Edge!.. and that is all that AR and DR do. Smasher rolls Agility+Close Combat, 3 successes. Joe rolls Perception+Intuition again for defence but loses 2 dice for being prone and 1 for being wounded, and gets no successes. 1 point of Edge allows you to reroll any dice in a confrontation, and Joe does have at least enough sense to know that dice roll failures more often than successes, so he spends his point of Edge to reroll one of Smasher's successes. He rolls a 6, which is still a success, so Andy is taking 5 damage including Smasher's margin of 3 and the base damage from the motorbike chain, which is 2. He rolls his Body to resist the damage - the number of dice rolled for that isn't reduced by wounds - and gets no successes. Fortunately, a bike chain does Stun damage, so Joe is not knocked unconscious because having just been shot makes no difference to his ability to handle being hit with the chain. Still, he got to use a point of Edge! It didn't do anything, but.. Edge! Yay!

Then Joe's GM reads the small print and realizes that Full Body Armor actually comes with a helmet, so he can't wear both. Joe's DR should have been 8, which will not get him an Edge bonus against a bike chain or indeed any weapon in the game except an unarmed punch from a person with 2's in Reaction and Strength. Andy and Smasher promptly loot the 3200 nuyen armor and shield while Joe throws his character sheet across the room. Andy heads off to buy Smasher a lollipop. Sorry, did I not mention he was a 5-year old boy? Body 1 Strength 1. No, that doesn't change his ability to injure someone by hitting a riot shield with a bike chain, why would it?

This is an ongoing theme with Edge. For example, if Andy had attempted to set Joe on fire, and Joe had the Elemental Resistance: Fire quality, then Joe would have gained a point of Edge, and then burned. That said, Andy would have had a hard time setting Joe on fire, because even though using a flamethrower is given as an example of combat in the book, there is no flamethrower in the Gear list and even shooting him with a missile launcher or high-explosive grenade would not have sent him on fire. (On the other hand, shooting a distress flare at him might have.)

So. Anyway. Your Edge stat is the number of points of Edge you get at the start of a game session, and the number you can carry over between encounters. Which.. doesn't really count for a whole lot, as we'll see.

"Metatype" - that's Shadowrun's flavour of race, ancestry or species - determines the caps on your attributes. It might also provide some number of built-in Qualities, which are usually bought with the other character generation currency, Karma. The most common attribute cap is 6, but every metatype has at least some variation. However, your metatype only sets the cap on an attribute; it doesn't actually give you points in that attribute. To allow for that, there's the number after the choice of metatype in the metatype column, which is your adjustment points. These are spent to increase your Special attributes, and to buy up those regular attributes which have increased caps due to your metatype.

The entire text of the description of the Attributes column is:

quote:

As described on p. 37, attributes fall into three different groups: Physical, Mental, and Special. All metahuman characters have a rank in each of their Physical and Mental attributes, but some may not have ranks in the Special attributes. Baseline attributes range start at 1 and can go up to 6. That range is modified by metatype and/ or chosen qualities. The Metatype Attributes table provides the ranges of the attributes for each metatype and the particular qualities certain metatypes gain as a free bonus. Descriptions of qualities start on p. 70. If player characters ever have a Physical or Mental attribute adjusted to 0 through magic or some other effect, they collapse, as either their body or mind has lost some critical functioning. They are nonfunctional until at least 1 rank is restored in that attribute. During character creation, only one attribute may be at the maximum for the selected metatype.

You will notice that there is absolutely no statement in this section about what attribute points actually mean. Is it 1 for 1 rank? Who knows. Probably. Also, did you know that you can't spend your Attribute points on Special Attributes - you have to spend your Adjustment Points on them? I had to get that from the Shadowrun Reddit because it's never mentioned in the book.

Humans have 6's across the board, except they can go to 7 in Edge. Since Edge is a Special Attribute, only Adjustment Points can be spent on it, so a human with metatype rank D or E cannot actually take advantage of their only bonus. Humans are the only race which is limited by having their only metatype bonus be to a Special Attribute. They have no special qualities and no compensation for such. Humans suck. Don't play them.

Dwarves can go to Body 7, Strength 8, and Willpower 7, but only Reaction 5. This makes them a bit of an awkward tradeoff, as they're losing points in defence and initiative to increase damage absorption. They gain Toxin Resistance (which, if you've been paying attention, means that you get a point of Edge when you're poisoned) and Thermographic Vision, a total of 20 Karma worth of Racial Qualities.

Elves can go to Agility 7 and Charisma 8, and gain Low-Light Vision (6 Karma), but they have no disadvantage at all. Given the value of Agility in all the combat skills, there's no reason to be a Human and not an Elf. Oh, hang on, apparently non-humans are discriminated against sometimes so it might be a bit tricky.. oh, wait, Charisma 8. Carry on.

Orks can go to 8 Body and Strength, but only 5 Charisma. They get Low-Light Vision (6 Karma), and "Built Tough" (4 Karma), which gives extra hit points.

Trolls can go to 9 Body (!), 9 Strength, but only 5 Agility and Charisma. They get Thermographic Vision as well, plus "Dermal Deposits" which increase the value of unarmed attacks and "gain 1 level of natural Armor" (there is no statement anywhere about what a "level of armor" is), plus 2 levels of Built Tough for a whopping 23 inbuilt Karma. As you've probably guessed, one point off most of your shooting is a relatively low tradeoff for being able to just ignore most damage that comes your way, especially in a world where armor doesn't do anything. We like trolls, apparently.

Also on the topic of attributes, notice the Magic or Resonance column. If you choose E, you can't be a mage or technomancer. If you choose D, you can be one. But because both apply to Special attributes, this interlocks with the Metatype column; and in fact, you never want your Magic to be ranked higher than your Metatype, because if they are then swapping them trades 1 point of Magic/Resonance per rank for more than 1 adjustment point per rank, which you can then put into Magic/Resonance. I've tabled it out, and literally any time you have Magic higher than Metatype, swapping gives you potentially the same magic score but more adjustment points.

Now, how about skills? There are 19 skills: Astral, Athletics, Biotech, Close Combat, Con, Conjuring, Cracking, Electronics, Engineering, Exotic Weapons, Firearms, Influence, Outdoors, Perception, Piloting, Sorcery, Stealth, and Tasking. Astral, Enchanting, Tasking, Conjuring, and Sorcery are all specific to magical characters, so we're left with 14 skills. Skills are limited to rank 6 at character generation, but can rise to 9 in play - unless you take the Aptitude advantage, which raises the limit by 1 rank in both contexts.

There's one more bit of background to this: a bit about levelling up. The currency used for levelling up is Karma (and there's no explanation for this rather curious choice of name), and it's awarded based purely on milestones and GM fiat, with the recommendation being 2-5 Karma per standard game session. You spend Karma on increasing your numbers and buying advantages and special modifiers for some character types, and you get 50 Karma during character generation. To raise a skill or attribute by one point costs Karma equal to 5 times the current value.

This simple fact should cause alarm bells to start to ring. This means that if you leave a skill at 5 instead of 6 in character generation, it'll cost you 30 in-game Karma to get that skill to 6, or on average 10 sessions. In the meantime, the guy across the table has raised 3 skills (or more likely, attributes) from 1 to 2, or 2 from 2 to 3. In other words, you're potentially hugely rewarded for aggressive minmaxing at character generation. This is especially the case if you're thinking of hitting the highest skill levels in play. If you want a skill at 7, you'll really want to take the Aptitude at character generation for 12 Karma and then spend one of your skill points on it, as opposed to spending the whopping 47 Karma for Aptitude plus the seventh point during play.

Now, take a look at the Attributes and Skills columns of the priority chart. You'll notice that on every row, the Skills value is the same as the Attributes value plus 8. That means that apart from the base kicker of 8 skill points, the balance between these rows is trading attribute points for skill points 1:1. This is an incredibly bad deal, given that attributes and skills have the same net effect on dice pools, but attributes apply to multiple skills and are used for calculating other values too. So unless you're doing some very bizarre and very precisely focused build, any time Skills is higher than Attributes, swapping will make your character better. I guess the only case where it might not is if youíre focussing very intensely on the skills associated with a certain Attribute. But since everyoneís going to be getting Reaction and Intuition, thatís probably not a great choice.

But we have plenty else to work out. In particular, that Wealth attribute and the effect of magic on your attributes. Which I'm going to have to leave till later because my head is already hurting. Let's just think about how having 450,000 nuyen means you could live the high-but-not-1% life for just about 3 years, in which time there'd presumably be other opportunities to make money..

hyphz fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Oct 7, 2019

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Halloween Jack posted:

They're loving stupid from first principles. Why do a bunch of cults and corporations and spookshows have a common loving vocabulary? Why is it always broken Greco-Latin? Throw it the gently caress out.
Specialized vocabulary for frequently-occurring concepts makes sense and every WoD game seems to assume some basic amount of intra-gribbly society, which is all you need to start developing jargoon. As for it being broken Greco-Latin, I suspect this one might be down to player convenience, because most of the people reading the game speak English and Greek/Latin roots are weird enough to be distinct, but generally comprehensible/memorable/usable in speech.

Like the one big exception was nWolf and look how that went.

You also have the advantage nowadays that you're not drawing your slang words from a living language, which reduces your odds of accidentally naming one of your main splat groups a Cantonese ethnic slur, etc.

Cooked Auto
Aug 4, 2007

If you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!




I was wondering when someone was considering doing SR6. If SR5 was bad then SR6 is downright abysmal in comparison. It only seems to have been made because the lead developer wanted it to as it seemingly appeals to no one. Or my personal theory is that they wanted to cash in on Cyberpunk Red and CP2077, and then managing to trip over their own feet constantly while doing it.
Suffice to say the SR thread has had a field day in how bad that game turned out.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

SunAndSpring posted:



Deviant the Renegades, part 1

The Intro

I figure I might as well get in on the ground floor while the Kickstarter is going and talk about this game, which can be described in a very reductive way as a game in which one can put Seth Brundle from The Fly, the titular character of RoboCop, Eleven from Stranger Things, The Human Torch from Fantastic Four, and maybe an X-man or two into the same party to go and gently caress up evil Conspiracies with their powers before everything goes to hell and you have a real Tetsuo moment and turn into a pile of writing biomass. There's quite a bit more to it, but I think what's very satisfying about this game is that there's probably not going to be a huge amount of tedious lore arguments since this is largely a very toolbox-like game line, compared to the more directed and convoluted settings of its sister games such as Mage, Promethean, and so on. I will be going broad strokes on the mechanics, both because going too in-depth is tedious and probably a breach of copyright law, and also because much is subject to change from this playtest until the release.

It's funny you bring up copyright law, since in depth discussions of mechanics are protected (there's only so many ways to roll dice) while rewriting thousands of words of setting materials and fluff is specifically not.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Clapping Larry

Dave Brookshaw posted:

It's Charles Darwin and other early scientists - Clade, Variation, adaption, etc. Origins are called Origins because it's an Origin of Species reference.

More thought goes into these vocab choices than you think. Mage's Greek words for Indian concepts and Indian words for Greek ones lexicon can stun a horse if you print it out and has to be kept in a spreadsheet so editors can look up things like obscure plurals, but it's exceptionally complicated (and mages are the sort to invent all kinds of technical language for phenomena only they can sense let alone care about). Demon had "just use plain loving English" as it's vocab "thing", based on the characters being able to perfectly translate anything.

Deviants use "Born", "Volunteered", "Mutant", "Cyborg", etc for themselves. And its lexicon is one of the shorter ones.

Just don't. Use simple words, we're simple folk.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I love the idea of evil scientists referring to everything in pointedly outdated Darwinist terms but yeah, ultimately I think usability has to trump flavor sometimes, at least for stuff that also functions as the players' introduction to the material and as extra-diegetic narration or rules text.

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk




hyphz posted:

There are eight attributes: Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, Willpower, Logic, Intuition, and Charisma.

so does the book also just completely skip intuition in the explanation section, or was that an accident on your part?

also the example combat description provided felt kind of rushed and haphazard; it throws a lot of terms out that aren't explained up until the second they're used, and seems to just glance over a lot of key ideas. is that intentional to show how useless the book is at explaining the same thing (i.e. was that c/p straight from the text)?

it sounds like, from your example, that weapons and armor have attack and defense ratings that function separately from their ability to actually prevent / deal damage, like you compare the attack rating of a weapon against your target's defense rating and that adjusts their dice pool up/down for the initial roll, but then if the attack is successful, the damage dealt appears to be based on the outcome of the attacker's dice and not a separate damage roll. is that right? so armor makes you harder to hit in the sense that it can reduce a potential attacker's dice pool to zero, but if you're not wearing enough armor to accomplish that, then it doesn't provide any additional ablative benefit?

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.


Freaking Crumbum posted:

so does the book also just completely skip intuition in the explanation section, or was that an accident on your part?

No, it's in the same paragraph as Reaction because like 90% of the time the book mentions Intuition it's in the combination "Reaction+Intuition".

quote:

also the example combat description provided felt kind of rushed and haphazard; it throws a lot of terms out that aren't explained up until the second they're used, and seems to just glance over a lot of key ideas. is that intentional to show how useless the book is at explaining the same thing (i.e. was that c/p straight from the text)?

No, it's me, trying to give an explanation of how ridiculous Edge is. I've edited a few bits to make it a bit clearer.

quote:

it sounds like, from your example, that weapons and armor have attack and defense ratings that function separately from their ability to actually prevent / deal damage, like you compare the attack rating of a weapon against your target's defense rating and that adjusts their dice pool up/down for the initial roll, but then if the attack is successful, the damage dealt appears to be based on the outcome of the attacker's dice and not a separate damage roll. is that right? so armor makes you harder to hit in the sense that it can reduce a potential attacker's dice pool to zero, but if you're not wearing enough armor to accomplish that, then it doesn't provide any additional ablative benefit?

You're right that damage is purely based on the outcome of the attacker's dice and the base damage of the weapon.

But armor doesn't make you easier to hit in the sense that it does anything to the attacker's dice pool. It gives you a point of Edge if you have 4 points more Defense Rating than the weapon's Attack Rating, and that's it. The Attack Rating isn't what you roll to attack and the Defense Rating isn't what you roll to defend. Clear as mud, right? Maybe I'll edit that in, too.

[I have now probably edited that post more than they edited the book. Just sayin'.]

hyphz fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Oct 6, 2019

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk




hyphz posted:

But armor doesn't make you easier to hit in the sense that it does anything to the attacker's dice pool. It gives you a point of Edge if you have 4 points more Defense Rating than the weapon's Attack Rating, and that's it. The Attack Rating isn't what you roll to attack and the Defense Rating isn't what you roll to defend. Clear as mud, right? Maybe I'll edit that in, too.

so defense rating does NOTHING except determine whether or not you get a point of edge? that's extremely poorly designed since, as in your example, having a point of edge doesn't even guarantee that anything beneficial will necessarily happen

did they keep the damage grades for weapons from earlier editions? it's been forever since i played TTRPG shadowrun, but i kind of recall that in 2E or 3E weapons had damage grades and having a high armor could actually lower the grade of the damage, so it served a very important function

Aoi
Sep 12, 2017

Perpetually a Pain.


Freaking Crumbum posted:

that's extremely poorly designed

This could literally be the entire 6th ed review, but that wouldn't be very fun.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013


can I just post about the loving book instead of having dipshits tell me "no"

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

SunAndSpring posted:

can I just post about the loving book instead of having dipshits tell me "no"
no

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





SunAndSpring posted:

can I just post about the loving book instead of having dipshits tell me "no"
:honk:

I think folks, including the line developer, are kind of signalling "Hey, please do not do a FATAL and Friends of the kickstarter preview rules while the kickstarter is ongoing." Whether this is thread law I do not know, though it kind of makes sense if it were.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013


I suppose I am a bit on edge since someone changed my avatar to a transphobic thing but at the same time, no one cared when exactly the same loving thing was done for the Exalted Lunars book, but I suppose that speaks to how little goons care about Exalted that no one cared, lmao.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Nessus posted:

:honk:

I think folks, including the line developer, are kind of signalling "Hey, please do not do a FATAL and Friends of the kickstarter preview rules while the kickstarter is ongoing." Whether this is thread law I do not know, though it kind of makes sense if it were.

I am not the line developer - I quit Deviant a year ago.

It's more the reviewing a game before it's finished that seems weird.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

I've always been weirded out by the 'reviewers' who rewrite whole books*.



*Mors

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements





I suspect it was also that Lunars was being painted in basically 'this saves the gameline go back it' colors. Plus the whole basically-finished text was being reviewed.

That's not to criticize, I just think there's some tonal/contextual differences.

Asimo
Sep 23, 2007




Dave Brookshaw posted:

I am not the line developer - I quit Deviant a year ago.

It's more the reviewing a game before it's finished that seems weird.
I reviewed a game that was never even actually released a few years back, but that's a different sort of precedent? Personally I don't think shutting reviews down is a good idea, at least as long as it's clear that it's more of a preview of a WIP than a real proper criticism/review. :shrug:

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013


eh

SunAndSpring fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Oct 7, 2019

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Asimo posted:

I reviewed a game that was never even actually released a few years back, but that's a different sort of precedent? Personally I don't think shutting reviews down is a good idea, at least as long as it's clear that it's more of a preview of a WIP than a real proper criticism/review. :shrug:
Personally I'm just like, this is a KS that's ongoing, we're not THAT content thirsty... are we??

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

EimiYoshikawa posted:

This could literally be the entire 6th ed review, but that wouldn't be very fun.

We're one post in and I'm already hopelessly confused. It seems like they tried to make a "unified" system but went about it in the most bizarre way possible.

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



hyphz posted:

... Because the game that broke me wasn't Blades In The Dark. It wasn't even Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition. No. It was Shadowrun Fourth / Twentieth Anniversary Edition. (Yes, the name's already a mess.)
...

Funny enough, this is the last edition of Shadowrun that I played that I would describe as "not entirely terrible".

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013


Nessus posted:

Personally I'm just like, this is a KS that's ongoing, we're not THAT content thirsty... are we??

I just wanted to do a bigger game people might actually be interested in and unfortunately Signs of Sorcery is Mage so itís full of confusing poo poo that Iíd get nagged about for misunderstanding it, and apparently Iím ďrewritingĒ the book by giving the bare basics so gently caress it, guess Iíll just leave to, uh, the pros since I canít seem to please people. Not like my last F&F stuff even made it to the archives for some reason.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





SunAndSpring posted:

I just wanted to do a bigger game people might actually be interested in and unfortunately Signs of Sorcery is Mage so itís full of confusing poo poo that Iíd get nagged about for misunderstanding it, and apparently Iím ďrewritingĒ the book by giving the bare basics so gently caress it, guess Iíll just leave to, uh, the pros since I canít seem to please people. Not like my last F&F stuff even made it to the archives for some reason.
I think that's totally understandable tbf. I also understand wanting to get the feedback now. If you pre-wrote stuff you can (imo - and this is what I'd do, not thread law) just drop it after the KS finishes. I'd be leery about doing it beforehand because they probably get some backer dollars for people who want to peek at that stuff.

As for the archive thing I believe inklesspen does updates in waves, if they missed one poke 'em. I imagine they'll see this in time.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


8one6 posted:

Funny enough, this is the last edition of Shadowrun that I played that I would describe as "not entirely terrible".

I could hardly get through the gear in Shadowrun 4th. Goddamn.

rodbeard
Jul 21, 2005



So what version of Shadowrun is actually playable?

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



PurpleXVI posted:

I could hardly get through the gear in Shadowrun 4th. Goddamn.

This is not an incorrect reaction.

rodbeard posted:

So what version of Shadowrun is actually playable?

The Shadowrun thread suggests either 3e or just reskin Blades in the Dark. The person in my IRL game who runs SR is just planning on using Genesys the next time he wants to run Shadowrun.

8one6 fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Oct 7, 2019

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Ronwayne
Nov 20, 2007

That warm and fuzzy feeling.


I've been in several shadowrun living communities (5th ed) and while any system, no matter how bad, can be fun when playing with friends, shadowrun is the only one where we felt a bond in mutually overcoming a difficult obstacle together (that obstacle being playing shadowrun)

"What joins men together, he said, is not the sharing of bread but the sharing of enemies ", the enemy in this case being Hardy's design.

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