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hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.




9: Argle bargle, foofaraw, hey diddy hoe diddy no one knows

No, that's not a really lazy post title. That's actually a quote from the book:



That should already tell you a ton about the design of magic in Shadowrun. There's a ton of stuff that works reliably but nobody really understands why because we can't be bothered to write a back story. Oh, and people who can use magic are incredibly rare. Yes, it's one of those settings. Just take Awakening at a priority other than E and suddenly everyone you meet will be like, hey, wow, who would have expected a mage to show up?

Also the Magic chapter is 44 pages long. By comparison, the Matrix is 26, vehicles are 6, and even regular combat is 22. Yes, it's one of those systems, too.

There's several different ways of being a mage, and we already talked about the simplest one: Physical Adepthood. This means that you channel magic purely through your own body and use it to increase your physical abilities. For each point of Magic you have, you get a Power Point, and you then spend the power points on adept powers; some have variable costs. You can wait before you decide what power to buy, but we don't know if you can trade them back again (or how long it takes to make the decision, so you could technically leave a bunch of Power Points free and then arm up at the last second).

All spellcasting can produce Drain, which is the same as what technomancers called Fading two updates ago. It's regular damage resisted with Body+Willpower; if the unresisted damage is less than or equal to your Magic, it's Stun, otherwise it's Physical.

What the vast majority of adept "powers" actually do is to let you trade Magic points for physical stats at some exchange rate. Namely:

  • Combat Sense: Magic to bonus on defensive rolls 1:2.
  • Critical Strike: Magic to bonus melee damage 1:1.
  • Enhanced Accuracy: Magic to Attack Rating 1:4.
  • Improved Ability: Magic to skill points 1:2, or 1:1 for combat skills.
  • Improved Physical Attribute: Magic to physical stat points 1:1.
  • Mystic Armor: Magic to Defense Rating 1:4.
  • Pain Resistance: Magic to reduction of the HP level at which penalties kick in 1:4.
  • Rapid Healing: Magic to bonuses on Healing tests on you 1:2.

As I mentioned before, this tends to result in the situation where almost any physical character is just better if they're made as an adept who instantly cashes in their Magic points for numeric boosts and then never mentions Magic again. If you don't want to do that, though, there's actual effects too. Well, actually, there's.. stuff that gives you Edge!

  • Danger Sense: ongoing 1 Edge when you make a Surprise test.
  • Direction Sense: temporary 1 Edge for Outdoors tests involving navigation.
  • Enhanced Perception: ongoing 1 Edge when Observing or making a Perception test to find hidden things. Note there is no statement of whether or not you actually find anything hidden, which walks into the "edge abuse" rules.
  • Improved Sense: temporary 1 Edge for test involving one of your major senses. Sadly, the way it's written, you only get to use it on one test, ever.
  • Kinesics: ongoing 1 Edge per encounter when someone is trying to read your emotions.
  • Spell Resistance: ongoing 1 Edge when someone targets you with a spell.
  • Vocal Control: ongoing 1 Edge per encounter when attempting to con or influence someone with your voice.

Before you get too excited (you were getting excited, right? right?) remember than this still counts towards the cap of gaining 2 Edge per combat round. And then finally, gasp, actual powers:

  • Adrenaline Boost: for 1/4 power point per level, you can use a minor action to add double your power level to your initiative; but after your Magic in combat rounds, you suffer drain equal to the power level. So for 1 PP you can gain +8 Initiative with a minor action at the cost of 4 damage later on. This extra initiative never translates into extra actions, so it's really only good if you really, really want to go first; and since it's a Minor Action, you presumably can't use it in response to combat starting, so it only works if you want to go first in later rounds.
  • Attribute Boost: again for 1/4 power point per level, you can select a physical attribute; then use a minor action to roll your magic+boost level and for each hit, gain +1 to that attribute for 1 round per hit, up to the augmented maximum; but for dice pools only and with drain equal to the level applied when you're done. The fact that you can combine this with your Magic makes this incredibly cheap, although obviously you'd pick it on an attribute you've already bought up to your unaugmented maximum.
  • Killing Hands: your unarmed attacks become magical and deal physical damage for half a power point. Meh.
  • Wall Running: you can Sprint up vertical surfaces, but you have to "move across a horizontal surface" for at least one turn before using this power a second time, so basically it just gives you a single high jump. Oh, and it lets you "show you're special" (yes, it says that in the power description). Oddly, it's a Minor Action and Sprinting is normally a Major Action, which could alone make it worth taking even if you never actually use it to run up a wall.

And that's it for Physical Adepts. Next step: actual magic. This is divided into three categories: Sorcery (actually casting spells), Conjuring (summoning up spirits), and Enchanting (making magic items). You can be a regular magician who can gain all three magical skills; or you can be an Aspected Magician who can only gain one of those skills but gets an extra point of Magic at character generation. The one advantage of buying Magic points with the priority stat, rather than adjustment points, is that it determines the number of spells you start with.. but Conjuring and Enchanting Aspected mages don't cast spells, so they have no reason to care. If you want to be a Physical Adept as well as a regular mage, you can do that, but you have to split your Magic points. You can also choose whether you're a Hermetic or a Shamanic mage, but all this changes is which stat (Logic or Willpower) you use as part of casting, so you choose the one you're highest in. Done. Bear in mind, nothing else in the game gets to pick a stat this way.

So, let's sling some sorcery. You pick a spell - which will specify a casting threshold; roll Sorcery+Magic to see if you cast it right; then roll Willpower+your chosen stat to resist the drain. For +2 extra drain, you can add a point of base damage value to a combat spell; and for +1 extra drain, you can increase the radius of an area spell by 2 metres. Again, no-one and nothing else gets to customise risks on the fly in this way.

So, let's get into the actual spells.

  • Acid Stream and Toxic Wave let you make an attack with Sorcery+Magic at anyone in line of sight; they resist with Reaction+Willpower (hey, you're the only one who can make attacks that aren't resisted with Reaction+Intuition, so everyone has to split a stat just to defend against you!), or take a Corrosive attack with a base damage of 5-6. Oh. Wait. No they don't. For some reason, spells use the abbreviation DV to mean Drain Value, rather than Damage Value as everywhere else in the book. They take an attack with a base damage of half your Magic. Oh, and toxic wave costs 1 extra drain point to target everyone in a 2m area. Look how many options you have! Oh, and Corrosive attacks deal ongoing damage equal to your net hits which never goes down until removed, and there's only one rules mandated way to remove it, which is another spell!
  • Flamestrike and Fireball are the same as above, and guess what type of damage they do. Burning damage is ongoing damage, but unlike Corrosive a test can be made to put out the flames. So use Corrosive instead, I guess.
  • Ice Spear, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Ball, you get the picture. Chilled gives you -4 Initiative and -1 to all dice pools except damage resistance, and Zapped gives you -2 initiative and -1 to all dice pools ever.
  • Clout, Blast, Powerbolt and Powerball are the same again, but they don't do any elemental damage and therefore cost less drain. Clout and Blast do stun damage, Powerbolt and Powerball do physical damage. Well, they should do. They're actually misprinted, so they act like..
  • Stunbolt, Stunball, Manabolt and Manapoll also do stun or physical plain damage, but they do damage only equal to their net hits, not adding half your Magic score. But in exchange, the damage can't be resisted. Yay, you're the only one who can deal irresistable damage! That said, unless the target's Body is significantly higher than your Magic it's a bad deal. But still.

You're probably seeing a theme by now. Yea, don't expect it to change. Next up, we have detection spells; they give you, or someone else you touch, the ability to get more information about something.

  • Analyze Device lets you work out what a piece of tech does by magic. It's not great, though, because any time you cast a spell on an object it gets a resistance roll based on how natural it is, and obviously tech devices aren't very natural, so they'll be rolling at least 9 dice against you. Don't worry.
  • Analyze Magic lets you detect what some magic does.
  • Analyze Truth lets you tell if someone's deliberately lying, but only if they're physically present - recordings, etc, don't count.
  • Clairaudience lets you hear sounds that are up to your Magic Rating + your Spellcasting hits, even through walls.
  • Clairvoyance lets you do the same, but see stuff.
  • Combat Sense does what the Adept combat sense does, but for one of your mates. Well, you can cast it on yourself, but you have to sustain it which costs -2 to all your dice pools, so it's kind of a waste.
  • Detect Enemies detects anyone with hostile intent within the same range as Clairaudience and in doing so completely trashes any possibility of ambushes, betrayals, etc.
  • Detect Life detects sentient life.
  • Detect Magic detects spells or other magic stuff.
  • Mindlink makes you and someone of your choice telepathic.
  • Mind Probe lets you dig through the head of anyone in range for information.

Yay! Let's break every investigation adventure wide open! The bad guys would never have thought to hide their clues from a mage, they're rare, remember! Next up, healing! Antidote heals toxins, Cleansing Heal heals HP and Corrosive, Cooling Heal heals HP and Burning, Heal heals just HP, Stabilize removes all Overflow damage, Warming Heal heals HP and Chilled. Increase Attribute and Increase Reflexes boost your or your buddy's attributes by up to +4, but aren't listed as applying the augmented maximum, so you can go hog wild, and Reflexes boost increases Initiative Dice as well without limit - but they increase their Drain Value by their net hits, so if you're a good caster you can unexpectedly drain yourself to death; Resist Pain directly reduces the damage penalty modifiers; and Reduce Attribute is not a bloody Health spell and should not be in this section.

Illusions! Yes, more choice for you! Why would we ever stop giving cool stuff to casters? Love, love, share, share!

  • Agony lets you attack someone with virtual damage that counts towards their wound penalties but not their actual HP. Oh wait, if their monitors are filled with virtual damage they're so wracked with pain they can't act, so I guess it might as well affect their actual HP. You do have to sustain it, though, which weakens it a fair bit.
  • Confusion gives your target a penalty equal to your net hits on everything they do except resisting damage. It can be an area spell if you want for just a few extra drain.
  • Hush is actually kind of cool. It means that others have to roll against your number of net hits in order to hear the target, and it can be used to help someone sneak or prevent them calling their buddies.
  • Invisibility turns you loving invisible I mean what is the bloody point in a cyberpunk game that's supposed to be hanging around in the shadows lying low and then you can just turn invisible argggggh.. it's the same as Hush but for sight, basically.
  • Mask lets you look like someone else; the more net hits, the more convincing the illusion. But we don't get to find out if the other person has to deliberately decide to try to see through the illusion or not.
  • Phantasm lets you throw an illusion out into space.
  • Chaos, Silence, Improved Invisibility, Physical Mask, and Trid Phantasm. Well, see, originally the limitation on illusions was that they didn't fool technology, but that made it a bit too easy for the mage to do everything including making the hacker useless, so here's your new versions of all those spells which do affect technology for 1 extra drain! Let's throw in Sensor Sneak as well, which turns you invisible to just technology, but is much cheaper, as if security cameras shouldn't even matter that much in cyberpunk!

Don't worry. That's about all. There's just Animate or Shape (Metal, plastic, stone, or wood); Armor, Elemental Armor, Mystic Armor or Vehicle Armor; Control Actions or Thoughts, creating Darkness or Light..

Look, you get the bloody picture by now. Sorcerers get carte blanche to mess with every single aspect of the game. There's even a sorcerer spell that increases the Matrix stats of a device, just to really piss the hacker off.

Alright, I was going to do magic in one post, but Sorcerers I guess are just so goddamn awesome that they're getting an update all to themselves. Next time: conjurers and enchanters. And more sorcerers. What, you thought we were done?

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8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



Phys Adepts loving rocked in 4e. Not sure about 5e since I never looked at the magic rules for that edition.

Cooked Auto
Aug 4, 2007

If you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!




Invisibility has always been the most broken spell in SR because it's an effective encounter or problem skipper unless the GM goes to extreme lengths to negate it.
The lead designer for SR has a massive boner for what is essentially Magicrun.

Pretty sure PhysAdepts were a borderline must take in 5 as well. In the campaign I played the power gamer of the group always tended to go for them regardless of concept otherwise.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

In theory--and yes, the game lays out its setting's theories--magick is balanced by having hard limits on what it is and isn't, and what it can and can't do, unlike D&D. In practice, they ignore it all the time, and magick can do really powerful stuff anyway.

The "Analyze Device" spell in particular grinds my gears. It's less offensive than a 1st edition spell called Fix, which fixes broken things.

According to the way magick works in Shadowrun, a gadget-fixing spell or even a lockpicking spell should be impossible. Because spells manipulate energy. Magick itself isn't intelligent and doesn't know things or solve problems. It can't give you skills you don't have, or perform technical work that you don't know how to do. Now, you could maybe summon an urban spirit that knows how to do it for you, because spirits are sentient creatures.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Halloween Jack posted:

In theory--and yes, the game lays out its setting's theories--magick is balanced by having hard limits on what it is and isn't, and what it can and can't do, unlike D&D. In practice, they ignore it all the time, and magick can do really powerful stuff anyway.

The "Analyze Device" spell in particular grinds my gears. It's less offensive than a 1st edition spell called Fix, which fixes broken things.

According to the way magick works in Shadowrun, a gadget-fixing spell or even a lockpicking spell should be impossible. Because spells manipulate energy. Magick itself isn't intelligent and doesn't know things or solve problems. It can't give you skills you don't have, or perform technical work that you don't know how to do. Now, you could maybe summon an urban spirit that knows how to do it for you, because spirits are sentient creatures.

also don't Magic and Technology Hate each other and thus a spell that fixes a mechanical device be like.. No?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I like the idea of having a setting where all magic is exclusively based on summoning some kind of entity that knows how to solve whatever problem you're facing, and being a wizard is halfway between being a switchboard operator and being in the mafia.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Technology (as far as I know as of 3e) isn't like a fundamental Platonic force in the Shadowrun setting, so not exactly. Practically, magic and technology don't interface well, for a lot of reasons that are rationales for game balance.

Like, you can't industrialize the production of magical goods because only a magician can craft them, and in most cases only a magician can use them anyway. Beyond that, magic "hates" technology in the same sense that large quantities of energy hate fragile electronics.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Oct 16, 2019

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

I like the idea of having a setting where all magic is exclusively based on summoning some kind of entity that knows how to solve whatever problem you're facing, and being a wizard is halfway between being a switchboard operator and being in the mafia.

Sorcerer.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

I like the idea of having a setting where all magic is exclusively based on summoning some kind of entity that knows how to solve whatever problem you're facing, and being a wizard is halfway between being a switchboard operator and being in the mafia.
The early versions of Stormbringer were like that. The magic system was entirely built around summoning demons and elementals and getting them to do work for you (or binding them into items and using those to do work). You didn't cast teleport, you summoned a Demon of Transport to conduct you to you destination. You don't cast fireball you summon a fire elemental to barf fiery goo on your opponent. That sort of thing. Spellcasting was always risky, especially if you tried to summon one of the Big Boys to bail you out of whatever jam you were in.

Later versions dropped that in place of a Vancian system (of weak spells with well defined and unchanging behavior). Later versions kind of sucked.

High-level play in the Dying Earth RPG had wizards who compelled djinn-like spirits called Sandestins to do all their work for them (when they weren't arguing over the precise wording of their indenture agreements).

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Wow, sounds like they nerfed the hell out of good ol' Killing Hands.

Nea
Feb 28, 2014

Funny Little Guy Aficionado.

PurpleXVI posted:

I would be eager to review this, and not only because it would probably mean some people would burn me in effigy on their lawn, but because Nobilis has some good ideas that seem to get buried under the setting being a bit too... kitchen sinky.

As someone who loves these games... You're fine? Like, I'm not gonna pretend these games don't have some serious jank and flaws

Jerik
Jun 24, 2019

I don't know what to write here.

Xelkelvos posted:

I'd really like someone more familiar with D&D 5e to do an F&F of Wendy's Feast of Legend.

Hm, it's been over a week since this post and no one's taken this on... I'm kind of considering tackling it myself, except that I'm in the middle of the 1E Deities & Demigods review, which has been going very slowly, and I want to get that done. On the other hand, much of the reason that review has been going so slowly is because of the research necessary, and that's something that wouldn't be an issue for Feast of Legend; I could probably knock out those posts relatively quickly between Deities & Demigods posts. Eh, what the hey; I guess if no one else comes forward in the next day or two and says they want to do it I'll go for it.

(Honestly, there were other factors lately delaying the Deities & Demigods posts; I'd had the Egyptian Mythos posts almost done for a few weeks before they were posted, but then my laptop's screen cracked and was rendered useless, and then I had to go out of state for work (without a laptop, unfortunately), so events kind of conspired to make it difficult to post. I maybe also put some blame on the nWoD reviews here, because one thing that's been taking up a lot of my time recently is working on some projects I want to release through the DMs Guild, but now the nWoD reviews have piqued my interest in that and given me ideas for things I want to write for the Storytellers Vault too, so that means I've been having to read through the nWoD books to familiarize myself with the rules and lore... but anyway...)

So, hm, I guess if anyone else has any interest in reviewing Feast of Legend, speak up by Friday, or I'll go ahead with it.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



In all seriousness Wendys' is a reprehensible company and giving them free advertisement for their free product is not a good idea. It's not the most interesting corporate-backed game out there.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Yeah, I was originally planning to maybe take a stab at it but I can't read through it without cringing, and Wendy's is apparently significantly worse than I thought anyway, so I decided not to bother.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.



Night10194 posted:

Yeah, I was originally planning to maybe take a stab at it but I can't read through it without cringing, and Wendy's is apparently significantly worse than I thought anyway, so I decided not to bother.

I said something similar to Xelkelvos at the time, and yeah, I was ignorant of the causes Wendy's and their executives push money towards. Dumb initial reaction to marketing, not worth feeding.

Jerik
Jun 24, 2019

I don't know what to write here.

Yeah, OK, never mind; disregard previous post. I won't bother with it, then.

I also wasn't aware that Wendy's corporate was that awful... that's too bad; I actually like their burgers (though I think their social media presence is annoying). I'd ask what Wendy's had done that's so terrible, but I don't want to derail the thread; I guess I can do some research online and find out on my own.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



The short form: they profit off literal slavery, and also are like if Chik-Fil-A was less loud about their politics.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Jerik posted:

Yeah, OK, never mind; disregard previous post. I won't bother with it, then.

I also wasn't aware that Wendy's corporate was that awful... that's too bad; I actually like their burgers (though I think their social media presence is annoying). I'd ask what Wendy's had done that's so terrible, but I don't want to derail the thread; I guess I can do some research online and find out on my own.
Most of the big chain fast food places joined up with some kind of thing about not using ingredients harvested with literal slave labor

Wendy's, notably, did not do this

Jerik
Jun 24, 2019

I don't know what to write here.

Zereth posted:

Most of the big chain fast food places joined up with some kind of thing about not using ingredients harvested with literal slave labor

Wendy's, notably, did not do this

Yeah, I hadn't known about this before, but after making that last post I did do some web searching and found some articles on the matter. Wow. That's... really something. Guess I won't be buying any more of their burgers, at least not unless they make some serious changes.

EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you


Cooked Auto posted:

Invisibility has always been the most broken spell in SR because it's an effective encounter or problem skipper unless the GM goes to extreme lengths to negate it.
The lead designer for SR has a massive boner for what is essentially Magicrun.

Pretty sure PhysAdepts were a borderline must take in 5 as well. In the campaign I played the power gamer of the group always tended to go for them regardless of concept otherwise.

Invisibility is rad because spells only need line of sight so you can make a wall invisible and laugh.

In my experience PhysAdepts vs Not That always come down to how good is cyber vs not having cyber and how often you are going to be doing something that isn't your main deal. Theoretically having to give up something for the magic priority is also a thing but also no one is falling for that old chestnut and it turns out being hyper-specialised in the game that has always rewarded and incentivised hyper-specialising is really good.

EthanSteele fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 16, 2019

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Also the UN and Ronald McDonald are bad guys working together with Ronnie as the lead villain backed by the Not-UN because the latter is a competitor and the former...publicly lambasted the company for tacitly supporting slavery.

Moonlit Knight
Nov 26, 2018


I'm getting the distinct impression that Shadowrun relates to RPG design mostly in the form of a cautionary tale.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Moonlit Knight posted:

I'm getting the distinct impression that Shadowrun relates to RPG design mostly in the form of a cautionary tale.

Not entirely. The single strongest element of Shadowrun is that the game puts front-and-center it's answer to 'So What Do You Do In This Game, Exactly?' It has lived where other games have died because every bit of lore and crunch is built with an eye towards the PCs being Freelance Assholes who Do Crimes For Money (And Sometimes Pro-Bono). Sure, they'll go off discussing the new monetary policies of the Corporate Court for a page, but they always swing back to discussing what kind of jobs that means for you, Johnny Chainsaw-for-a-Dick.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.



Hostile V posted:

Also the UN and Ronald McDonald are bad guys working together with Ronnie as the lead villain backed by the Not-UN because the latter is a competitor and the former...publicly lambasted the company for tacitly supporting slavery.

I had to look this up and I can confirm, in an amazing instance of saying the quiet part loud, one of the bad guy aggressors in the sample adventure is named the United Clown Nations. They just get namedropped briefly so it can get camouflaged amidst the many mentions of the Ice Jester and blah blah frozen beef, but wow. I didn't expect that.

Cooked Auto
Aug 4, 2007

If you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!




Ratoslov posted:

Not entirely. The single strongest element of Shadowrun is that the game puts front-and-center it's answer to 'So What Do You Do In This Game, Exactly?' It has lived where other games have died because every bit of lore and crunch is built with an eye towards the PCs being Freelance Assholes who Do Crimes For Money (And Sometimes Pro-Bono). Sure, they'll go off discussing the new monetary policies of the Corporate Court for a page, but they always swing back to discussing what kind of jobs that means for you, Johnny Chainsaw-for-a-Dick.

This is very true. When I went through the Neotech 2 book there was essentially no clear cut answer to what the player characters are meant to do at any point. At best you had some vague allusions about things you could possibly do. But Shadowrun is very clear on that point from page one.
The biggest issue with SR is that the rules are an absolute mess and any notion of balance can be thrown out of a window in many cases. Especially with magick involved.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Cooked Auto posted:

The biggest issue with SR is that the rules are an absolute mess and any notion of balance can be thrown out of a window in many cases. Especially with magick involved.

And every iteration of the build-a-gun rules. Those things are completely cursed.

EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you


Ratoslov posted:

And every iteration of the build-a-gun rules. Those things are completely cursed.

I go to bat for SR3 a lot, but even I can't on this one. The build-a-gun rules either get you a gun that's the same as something that exists for double the price, or you completely gently caress everything up and the advice for the GM on availability/street index stuff is "just make it up yourself" and only one of the options (the bullet-hose one) is really obvious whether that should be available at chargen or not. Going in with an eye for "ok, what's a gun that doesn't exist, but would make sense" like a super concealable shotgun that's for Tir na nOg special forces or something instead of just the most broken thing you can make can help, but its still garbo.

Balance wise for SR (and a bunch of games actually) a lot of the time "balance" is that baseline competence is a low bar to clear and that being the Absolute Best at a thing doesn't change much for general performance. You can only kill a guy so much before it's overkill that you rolled 12 die instead of 6. That doesn't mean there's no point in having the bigger pool and being an Adept, it just means that when it comes to the standard shootman scenario, you're both killing a guy. The Adept shines in the trickshot, long distance, low-visibility scenario and you just bulldoze it through sheer number of die being rolled while the other guy is still putting on his tactical goggles (new from Renraku) before he can even approach the task. Obviously its different for each edition and even systems within each edition.

Never gonna try and defend SR editing though, I only have experience with SR3 and 5, but both of them have some real nightmare passages for figuring out stuff. Core stuff in SR3 is fine, Fight, Sneak and Magic are easy enough to understand, but once Adjusted Barrier Rating gets in there I'm out. SR5.... well when the rules that are referenced exist its not so bad, unfortunately that appears to be a big hurdle.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Ratoslov posted:

And every iteration of the build-a-gun rules. Those things are completely cursed.
the "from scratch", or the advanced weapon customization?

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Zereth posted:

the "from scratch", or the advanced weapon customization?

They go cyber-hand in spiked glove, because when you ask questions like 'I wonder what the most damaging shotgun I could make?' you don't stop at just making it from scratch, you customize it afterwards.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




I will accept gun customization only if you can go full Resonance of Fate.

EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you


Omnicrom posted:

I will accept gun customization only if you can go full Resonance of Fate.



I previously presented this evidence to my GM as to why only allowing one add-on at each point was ridiculous but he didn't fall for it.

KirbyKhan
Mar 20, 2009


Soiled Meat

Wendy's RPG hit me like my first hit of Alex Jones. Flip to any page and you get a harmless dose of crazy right entertainment. When I say down to read it front to stop I could not handle the amount of pandering and corporate jokes overloading my system, reprogramming my brain, giving ALL PRAISE TO THA YAAS QUEEEN MILADY I WILL SLAY THE UNITED NATION OF CLOWNS AND THE LOCAL UNION OF DEL TACOS FOR YOUR HONOR.

It is an abyss that entices with dope art but burns the soul with capitalism brand worship. It got me.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




Omnicrom posted:

I will accept gun customization only if you can go full Resonance of Fate.



Jesus at first glance I thought this was a dungeon map.

90s Cringe Rock
Nov 29, 2006
:gay:


That Old Tree posted:

Jesus at first glance I thought this was a dungeon map.
the new ares predator gyg-x comes with integral smartlink and underbarrel dungeon

Deptfordx
Dec 23, 2013



So Physical Adepts have no way of duplicating high-end Wired Reflexes and getting bonus major actions then?

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


Traditional Games › FATAL & Friends 2020: Argle bargle, foofaraw, hey diddy hoe diddy no one knows

Moonlit Knight
Nov 26, 2018


Ratoslov posted:

Not entirely. The single strongest element of Shadowrun is that the game puts front-and-center it's answer to 'So What Do You Do In This Game, Exactly?' It has lived where other games have died because every bit of lore and crunch is built with an eye towards the PCs being Freelance Assholes who Do Crimes For Money (And Sometimes Pro-Bono). Sure, they'll go off discussing the new monetary policies of the Corporate Court for a page, but they always swing back to discussing what kind of jobs that means for you, Johnny Chainsaw-for-a-Dick.

That’s fair. I was thinking of the actual mechanics, but I realize that “RPG design” isn’t very specific.

Leraika
Jun 14, 2015

slime time



90s Cringe Rock posted:

the new ares predator gyg-x comes with integral smartlink and underbarrel dungeon

It's just like I'm playing Disgaea all over again!

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Ratoslov posted:

Not entirely. The single strongest element of Shadowrun is that the game puts front-and-center it's answer to 'So What Do You Do In This Game, Exactly?' It has lived where other games have died because every bit of lore and crunch is built with an eye towards the PCs being Freelance Assholes who Do Crimes For Money (And Sometimes Pro-Bono). Sure, they'll go off discussing the new monetary policies of the Corporate Court for a page, but they always swing back to discussing what kind of jobs that means for you, Johnny Chainsaw-for-a-Dick.

And the format of 'this is on a BBS and runners chime in when they have something useful* to add' really helps for it, too. Like you'll get a page on how stocks work for the mega-corps and some runner will be like 'I CAN'T LOAD THIS INTO MY GUN WHY DO I CARE' and somebody will tell them because you can also, say, get paid in stock which can be sold to get money and money can be used for goods and services.

*May not actually be useful. Or it's just Kain posting.

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DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.


KirbyKhan posted:

Wendy's RPG hit me like my first hit of Alex Jones. Flip to any page and you get a harmless dose of crazy right entertainment. When I say down to read it front to stop I could not handle the amount of pandering and corporate jokes overloading my system, reprogramming my brain, giving ALL PRAISE TO THA YAAS QUEEEN MILADY I WILL SLAY THE UNITED NATION OF CLOWNS AND THE LOCAL UNION OF DEL TACOS FOR YOUR HONOR.

It is an abyss that entices with dope art but burns the soul with capitalism brand worship. It got me.

Alright, well, this F&F is complete, great job.

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