Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


MrFlibble posted:

MCU films are trash but so are art films.

I think its silly to get offended but the reasons for doing so aren't bad - if some fart huffing pedophile defender says the stuff you enjoy isn't real its not that you're defending the honour of your entertainment its that you rightly perceive that this upper class poo poo bag is looking down his nose at you.

Did you read what he said because he's right

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


Like his argument isn't they're bad because the Poors and the Stupids like them his argument is they're bland bullshit made with an eye to snagging as many dollars as possible rather than being someone's actual artistic vision

And he's right

MrFlibble
Nov 28, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Fallen Rib

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Like his argument isn't they're bad because the Poors and the Stupids like them his argument is they're bland bullshit made with an eye to snagging as many dollars as possible rather than being someone's actual artistic vision

And he's right

Millionaires aren't right until they're dead.

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


MrFlibble posted:

Millionaires aren't right until they're dead.

Well this is a productive discussion

MrFlibble
Nov 28, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Fallen Rib

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Well this is a productive discussion

I agree that the MCU films are products designed to make the biggest amount of money possible. I just think that maybe they wouldn't be like that if we didn't live in a society that was designed to encourage that sort of mindset and also that maybe a millionaire isn't the best person to be talking about it and also gently caress him.

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


MrFlibble posted:

I agree that the MCU films are products designed to make the biggest amount of money possible. I just think that maybe they wouldn't be like that if we didn't live in a society that was designed to encourage that sort of mindset and also that maybe a millionaire isn't the best person to be talking about it and also gently caress him.

I meant "heartbreaking, worst person" etc is a meme for a reason

Being a millionaire can be immoral and he can be right about how this is mass produced bullshit with no artistic value

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


Like you're not even arguing with his ideas you're just mad that he said them

MrFlibble
Nov 28, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Fallen Rib

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I meant "heartbreaking, worst person" etc is a meme for a reason

Being a millionaire can be immoral and he can be right about how this is mass produced bullshit with no artistic value

Well, sure. Its value is the bread and circuses distraction from society collapsing, which I agree isn't artistic.

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Like you're not even arguing with his ideas you're just mad that he said them

I don't care for the idea that a director is the sole producer of art with regards to cinema and I think that dismissing the work of the actors and film crew is bullshit even if the ideas he is expressing are correct. I think the term art is bullshit in general because theres no objective way to define it with regards to this conversation because every loving film funded by a major corporation is intended to make a profit but that doesn't mean that the people working on them aren't trying to say something.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

whatever marginal advantage the racial justice protestors gained from being masked was greatly outweighed by the fact that the racial justice protests were larger than the covid protests by a scale or two of magnitude

what exactly are the deep artistic statements you think marvel movies are saying

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


MrFlibble posted:

Well, sure. Its value is the bread and circuses distraction from society collapsing, which I agree isn't artistic.


I don't care for the idea that a director is the sole producer of art with regards to cinema and I think that dismissing the work of the actors and film crew is bullshit even if the ideas he is expressing are correct. I think the term art is bullshit in general because theres no objective way to define it with regards to this conversation because every loving film funded by a major corporation is intended to make a profit but that doesn't mean that the people working on them aren't trying to say something.

Lmao ok what's your favorite iron man

cargo cult
Aug 28, 2008

by Reene


MrFlibble posted:

I agree that the MCU films are products designed to make the biggest amount of money possible. I just think that maybe they wouldn't be like that if we didn't live in a society that was designed to encourage that sort of mindset and also that maybe a millionaire isn't the best person to be talking about it and also gently caress him.
u big mad

Farm Frenzy
Jan 3, 2007



MrFlibble posted:

Well, sure. Its value is the bread and circuses distraction from society collapsing, which I agree isn't artistic.


I don't care for the idea that a director is the sole producer of art with regards to cinema and I think that dismissing the work of the actors and film crew is bullshit even if the ideas he is expressing are correct. I think the term art is bullshit in general because theres no objective way to define it with regards to this conversation because every loving film funded by a major corporation is intended to make a profit but that doesn't mean that the people working on them aren't trying to say something.



youre mad that hes making fun of your baby movies lmao

MrFlibble
Nov 28, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Fallen Rib

Maybe, I guess. I don't know. I haven't even watched a marvel film in a while. They all just kind of blend in together after a while.

EDIT: Honestly I think its just that i'm kind of dumb.

MrFlibble has issued a correction as of 16:35 on Oct 5, 2019

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



Serf posted:

yeah except that movie depicted those things as bad. joker has marginalized citizens putting on clown masks and beating up the cops and killing the rich and it never really tries to make that look bad

The movie is basically "Give the poor and the sick what they need or else they will rise up around the wrong charismatic populist figurehead" so I mostly liked it. There's incel stuff in there. The discourse around the latter would be bearable if more people were talking about the former, because ignoring the films thesis... proves it correct?

But yes its also derivative of the obvious things, but of all of them it's most like Fight Club in that it will be loved and co-opted by chuds who aren't really thinking about it either, which is lame because nobody should have to think that hard about it.

Serf
May 5, 2011




MasterSitsu posted:

The movie is basically "Give the poor and the sick what they need or else they will rise up around the wrong charismatic populist figurehead" so I mostly liked it. There's incel stuff in there. The discourse around the latter would be bearable if more people were talking about the former, because ignoring the films thesis... proves it correct?

But yes its also derivative of the obvious things, but of all of them it's most like Fight Club in that it will be loved and co-opted by chuds who aren't really thinking about it either, which is lame because nobody should have to think that hard about it.

i read no incel themes in the movie. that seems largely engineered by media libs to distract from the obvious class war narrative that the movie creates. seemingly by accident, since todd phillips is a huge moron, but that's not surprising. most movies with interesting themes develop them unconsciously

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1180330977240989696

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



Serf posted:

i read no incel themes in the movie. that seems largely engineered by media libs to distract from the obvious class war narrative that the movie creates. seemingly by accident, since todd phillips is a huge moron, but that's not surprising. most movies with interesting themes develop them unconsciously

I dont know how deep into spoilers we can really get here, but what is real/not real and what we see/don't see regarding one character can easily be picked apart by nature of its vagueness.

anywho:
https://twitter.com/leslieleeiii/status/1178671999968776192

I am buying stock in the take linked above (even though the real answer is US, with honorable mention to DUMBO)

cargo cult
Aug 28, 2008

by Reene


the director has been doing the rounds whining about how the "far left' are censoring him so its safe to say that wasnt his intent lol

smarxist
Jul 26, 2018

correct politics haver... weed...





MCU movies are fuckin'

fine art films are making love

i've done neither so i'm just speculating

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



cargo cult posted:

the director has been doing the rounds whining about how the "far left' are censoring him so its safe to say that wasnt his intent lol

His quote is “What’s outstanding to me in the discourse of this movie is how easily the far left can sound like the far right when it suits their agenda.”

He's a horseshoe theory guy. There are a ton of class reductionists who wince at idpol. Boots Riley does it too. LOL not saying Todd is some anti-cap revolutionary - he's a chud - but there's nothing surprising about a guy who made a populist movie whining about idpols.

Regardless, this is a movie where Joker's only (on-screen) victims are Wall Street brokers and people who financially exploit his mental illness for ratings. He inspires a populist uprising. Cops are bad. His boss is bad. The rich businessman running for office is bad. The media lionizes the rich white victims. His meds and therapy are subject to austerity cuts. It's hard to convince me this many things get in there 'unintentionally'

MasterSitsu has issued a correction as of 18:27 on Oct 5, 2019

Bro Dad
Mar 26, 2010




the director is also an anti-union shitbag whose other claim to fame is making the hangover movies

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


the device between trash and art or whatever is such a useless bougie point of view.

like enjoying thing ironically back when that was a thing.

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



Bro Dad posted:

the director is also an anti-union shitbag whose other claim to fame is making the hangover movies

Like Sorkin he's an anti-WGA dick who in the same breath claims to be for unions in principle. None of this is a defense, I'm just saying none of this is real evidence to me that the things in Joker are an accident (especially when its co-written by a guy who has made other works sympathetic to poor, sick, or addicted persons)

https://twitter.com/t_ruggeri/status/1179130071870656512?s=20

Serf
May 5, 2011




MasterSitsu posted:

I dont know how deep into spoilers we can really get here, but what is real/not real and what we see/don't see regarding one character can easily be picked apart by nature of its vagueness.

yeah i know what you're referring to and i think that if you put it in the context of the other time during the film that we see that plot element come up, it seems less that he has an unfulfilled desire for sexual intimacy and more that he just wants intimacy of any kind

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Phillips also got his start making a GG Allin documentary, so he might just have a soft spot for transgressive anarchic chaos, regardless of what it's in service of.

Like, his Hangover sequel was the externalized version of the nihilism underpinning the original and I don't care enough to research if he intended that. He might just like not liking things.

E: also I haven't seen Joker yet, so idk

mysterious frankie has issued a correction as of 19:43 on Oct 5, 2019

Man Musk
Jan 13, 2010



https://twitter.com/EmilyRMarlow/status/1180601644616044545

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



Serf posted:

yeah i know what you're referring to and i think that if you put it in the context of the other time during the film that we see that plot element come up, it seems less that he has an unfulfilled desire for sexual intimacy and more that he just wants intimacy of any kind

Attention of any kind. Failed professional clown/aspiring stand up comedian. Psychiatrists arent listening to him, boss doesnt listen to him/believe him, relationships both real and imagined are given and taken away. It's more that he has no positive attention whatsoever rather than the entitlement to it that we associate with incels.

In fact, his first victims are the ones that felt entitled to womens attention/affection

And he's not even really.... jealous of anyone in the film. The... uh.... kid.... in the film, he's not resentful or jealous of, he is trying to get attention/connection there just as much.

MasterSitsu has issued a correction as of 00:19 on Oct 6, 2019

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



http://www.outono.net/elentir/2019/10/05/joker-the-perverse-idea-that-this-formally-excellent-film-promotes/

I found an anti-Marxist Joker review that hates it for the same reasons I liked it.

quote:

“Joker” introduces us to the protagonist as a victim of violence and injustice. So far this film has a common element with many other cinematographic works that have not generated any controversy. In addition, the Joker is an upset man, to the point that it causes you grief. Again, there is nothing wrong with a movie raising that issue. The problem comes when the movie presents the Joker as a victim of the “system”. Several times that word is mentioned during the feature film. But also, and here comes what I liked least, the film tells the story of the Joker in a way that supports that idea: the rich are portrayed as heartless to those who do not care about the fate of those who have less (Thomas Wayne, which in other films is a philanthropist, this time it is a scoundrel and refers to those disadvantaged as “clowns”), so that the violence of those disadvantaged against the rich ends up looking like understandable and logical.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





MasterSitsu posted:

http://www.outono.net/elentir/2019/10/05/joker-the-perverse-idea-that-this-formally-excellent-film-promotes/

I found an anti-Marxist Joker review that hates it for the same reasons I liked it.

sounds like he lives in a society

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Fully Automated Luxury Space Dog


love being a rube who thinks philanthropy isn't a scam

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





haven't seen it but it sounds like it would've been even better if they had thomas wayne be like that and still be a philanthropist like real-life billionaires

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Fully Automated Luxury Space Dog


vyelkin posted:

haven't seen it but it sounds like it would've been even better if they had thomas wayne be like that and still be a philanthropist like real-life billionaires

It'd be a more interesting topic for a Batman movie, where Bruce Wayne's image of his father is contradicted by the reality that was hidden from him and the public. The guy that kills Thomas Wayne wouldn't be like a thug, but some guy that was unjustly fired. There's lots of ways you could explore it.

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10156278766436857

LOLOLOLOL

quote:

On Wednesday night I attended the New York Film Festival and witnessed a cinematic masterpiece, the film that last month won the top prize as the Best Film of the Venice International Film Festival. It’s called “Joker” — and all we Americans have heard about this movie is that we should fear it and stay away from it. We’ve been told it’s violent and sick and morally corrupt — an incitement and celebration of murder. We’ve been told that police will be at every screening this weekend in case of “trouble.” Our country is in deep despair, our constitution is in shreds, a rogue maniac from Queens has access to the nuclear codes — but for some reason, it’s a movie we should be afraid of.

I would suggest the opposite: The greater danger to society may be if you DON’T go see this movie. Because the story it tells and the issues it raises are so profound, so necessary, that if you look away from the genius of this work of art, you will miss the gift of the mirror it is offering us. Yes, there’s a disturbed clown in that mirror, but he’s not alone — we’re standing right there beside him.

“Joker” is no superhero or supervillain or comic book movie. The film is set somewhere in the ‘70s or ‘80s in Gotham City - and the filmmakers make no attempt to disguise it for anything other than what it is: New York City, the headquarters of all evil: the rich who rule us, the banks and corporations for whom we serve, the media which feeds us a daily diet “news” they think we should absorb. This past week, a week when a sitting President indicted himself because, in true Joker style, he was laughing himself silly at Mueller’s and the Dems’ inability to stop him, so he just quadrupled down and handed them everything they needed. But even then, after ten days of his flaunting his guilt, he was still sitting with his KFC grease-stained nuclear codes in the Oval Office, so he told
Captain Sketchy to fire up the helicopter, the sound of its blades revving up, meant only to alert the reporters to scurry outside for the daily “press conference” — Trump walks outside into the deafening cacophony of the whirlybird and publicly and feloniously asks the Peoples Republic of China to interfere in our 2020 election by sending him dirt on the Bidens. He and his magic carpet of hair then walked away and, other than the citizen howls of “CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?!”, nothing happened. As “Joker” opens this weekend, Joker, Jr. Is still still sitting at John F. Kennedy’s desk in the Oval Office on the days he shows up to work, dreaming of his next conquest and debauchery.

But this movie is not about Trump. It’s about the America that gave us Trump — the America which feels no need to help the outcast, the destitute. The America where the filthy rich just get richer and filthier.

Except in this story a discomfiting question is posed: What if one day the dispossessed decide to fight back? And I don’t mean with a clipboard registering people to vote. People are worried this movie may be true
oo violent for them. Really? Considering everything we’re living through in real life? You allow your school to conduct “active shooter drills” with your children, permanently, emotionally damaging them as we show these little ones
that this is the life we’ve created for them. “Joker” makes it clear we don’t really want to get to the bottom of this, or to try to understand why innocent people turn in to Jokers after they can no longer keep it together. No one wants to ask why two smart boys skipped their 4th-hour AP French Philosophy class at Columbine High to slaughter 12 students and a teacher. Who would dare ask why the son of a vice-president of General Electric would go into Sandy Hook Elementary in
Newtown, CT and blow the tiny bodies apart of 20 first-graders. Or why did 53% of White women vote for the presidential candidate who, on tape, reveled in his talent as a sexual predator?

The fear and outcry over “Joker” is a ruse. It’s a distraction so that we don’t look at the real violence tearing up our fellow human beings — 30 million Americans who don’t have health insurance is an act of violence. Millions of abused women and children living in fear is an act of violence. Cramming 59 students like worthless sardines into classrooms in Detroit is an act of violence.

As the news media stands by for the next mass shooting, you and your neighbors and co-workers have already been shot numerous times, shot straight through all of your hearts and hopes and dreams. Your pension is long gone. You’re in debt for the next 30 years because you committed the crime of wanting an education. You have actually thought about not having children because you don’t have the heart to bring them onto a dying planet where they are given a 20-year death-by-climate-change sentence at birth. The violence in “Joker”? Stop! Most of the violence in the movie is perpetrated on the Joker himself, a person in need of help, someone trying to survive on the margins of a greedy society. His crime is that he can’t get help. His crime is that he is the butt of a joke played on HIM by the rich and famous. When the Joker decides he can no longer take it — yes, you will feel awful. Not because of the (minimal) blood on the screen, but because deep down, you were cheering him on - and if you’re honest when that happens, you will thank this movie for connecting you to a new desire — not to run to the nearest exit to save your own rear end but rather to stand and fight and focus your attention on the nonviolent power you hold in your hands every single day. Thank you Joaquin Phoenix, Todd Phillips, Warner Bros. and all who made this important movie for this important time. I loved this film’s multiple homages to Taxi Driver, Network, The French Connection, Dog Day Afternoon. How long has it been since we’ve seen a movie aspire to the level of Stanley Kubrick? Go see this film. Take your teens. Take your resolve.

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 12, 2007

by Cyrano4747


I want a Batman movie where he fucks and kills other billionaires and at the end of the movie he tops himself

cargo cult
Aug 28, 2008

by Reene


watch american psycho

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


the more I hear about Joker it sounds heavy handed as gently caress.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



cargo cult posted:

watch american psycho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzN3qO-qc8U

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk15H6PjBis

R. Guyovich
Dec 25, 1991

by Nyc_Tattoo


Percelus posted:

i remember i saw some famous artist speak at mason gross instead of regular class when i took a 101 course for fun and the art kids in the audience kept trying to ask the most pretentious questions and she wasn't having it but instead talked about how pulp trash like dick tracey inspired her and that people from the midwest drink from the bottom of the barrel culturally and enjoy it

sometimes you just gotta consume the garbage, it's more fun to talk about anyway

e- heck i'd argue refusing to consume trash media of any kind is absolutely a bougie affectation that reflects a disdain for the common man and their "lowbrow" tastes. well crafted high art serves an important function but there is only so much of it people can take in before needing some good old fashioned shlock

this is just the classic "mass culture vs. popular culture" question

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Percelus
Sep 9, 2012

My command, your wish is



they should make the movie gregg turkington always wanted with james bond, r2d2, bilbo baggins and spiderman

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply