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A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


I think your supposed to go "oh this would be hosed up IRL, good think it's just a fun element of my fantasy inspire space opera based on classic pulp adventure"

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

the X-Wing novels were good because it was just pew-pew starships without the Jedi bullshit

Serf
May 5, 2011




some things are less subtle than others. like in tpm when obi-wan refers to anakin as a "pathetic life-form" and the two jedi treat jar jar like a subhuman. these are unsubtle clues that the jedi are not the heroes you thought they were

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




One of the big reasons that people didn't like the PT was that they were expecting the Jedi to be great wise leaders of a utopian society, but it turns out they are hypocritical liberal cops propping up capitalism.

Not the only reason, mind you. But a lot comes down to not realizing that George Lucas understands, for example, that the hero's journey is (at best) a narrative which lends itself very easily to fascism.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Though this is Jar Jar they're talking about

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Fully Automated Luxury Space Dog


Hodgepodge posted:

In contrast, the Wachowskis may not have realized they were struggling with gender issues when they directed the Matrix, but understanding that they are trans allows one to understand the entire film differently in ways which emerge from the text of the film itself. For example, Trinity is obviously to some degree Neo's feminine self. Thats not really unusual in symbolism terms, though- everyone has both masculine and feminine aspects to their identity, those being social constructs, and engaging with this is part of any number of mystical approaches to self-development. But the scene where Neo meets Trinity for example, reads totally differently from a perspective which acknowledges the possibility of a transgendered selfhood. Neo meets his feminine self and immediately confesses that he thought she was a guy, and she replies "most guys do." Knowing that the directors would come to understand themselves as transgendered, that comes very close to an outright statement of something they may not have even realized about themselves at the time. Also it really helps temper the libertarian aspects of the film, which really helps with rewatching it at this point.

The Matrix was also heavily inspired by Ghost in the Shell, and the central philosophical problem of GitS is whether the "authenticity" of the self and the lived experience has any inherent value. The conclusion being that authenticity doesn't matter, and you shouldn't reject the opportunity to transition into a greater form out of some fear that you'll lose it.

Which is also why the American Ghost in the Shell is one of the worst adaptations ever made. Just thinking about it is pissing me off.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The Matrix was also heavily inspired by Ghost in the Shell, and the central philosophical problem of GitS is whether the "authenticity" of the self and the lived experience has any inherent value. The conclusion being that authenticity doesn't matter, and you shouldn't reject the opportunity to transition into a greater form out of some fear that you'll lose it.

Which is also why the American Ghost in the Shell is one of the worst adaptations ever made. Just thinking about it is pissing me off.

I think western adaptations almost always strip anything buddisty out of stuff like that because it's too sad or "nihilistic". Sometimes I think the whole reason anime is so popular with teens is that even the trashiest poo poo has a higher chance of presenting an honest existential dilemma than like most mass market western media stuff for kids.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









I am entirely okay with a reading of the prequels that its about the Jedi hubris that blows up the galaxy because their heads are firmly up their own asses, in fact I thought that was pretty obvious from any reasonable viewing; that doesn't change the fact that they're boring as hell

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Fully Automated Luxury Space Dog


A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

I think western adaptations almost always strip anything buddisty out of stuff like that because it's too sad or "nihilistic". Sometimes I think the whole reason anime is so popular with teens is that even the trashiest poo poo has a higher chance of presenting an honest existential dilemma than like most mass market western media stuff for kids.

I wouldn't even say the central thesis of GitS is inherently Buddhist, because issues of authenticity and apotheosis have also been significant themes of Western philosophy. The American GitS has a very dumb American insecurity about the desire for an authentic life, because it makes the Major trans-racial for reasons that don't make any sense, and when she discovers her true origins she rejects apotheosis in favor of getting in touch with her true birth mother and living her true authentic life as a Japanese. It's an extremely reactionary attitude that only Americans could have - since you've got millions of people trying to 23 and me their own ethnic origins as if not knowing where your ancestors came from is some meaningful absence from life.

Just imagine if the Major was actually Italian and she rejects becoming a god of the net so she can go back to tha family and learn how to makea tha sauce. Marone! That's a spicy takoyaki!

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Pener Kropoopkin posted:

I wouldn't even say the central thesis of GitS is inherently Buddhist, because issues of authenticity and apotheosis have also been significant themes of Western philosophy. The American GitS has a very dumb American insecurity about the desire for an authentic life, because it makes the Major trans-racial for reasons that don't make any sense, and when she discovers her true origins she rejects apotheosis in favor of getting in touch with her true birth mother and living her true authentic life as a Japanese. It's an extremely reactionary attitude that only Americans could have - since you've got millions of people trying to 23 and me their own ethnic origins as if not knowing where your ancestors came from is some meaningful absence from life.

Just imagine if the Major was actually Italian and she rejects becoming a god of the net so she can go back to tha family and learn how to makea tha sauce. Marone! That's a spicy takoyaki!

Sure, I just meant that yeah the validity of the "authentic self" is not something that's going to be interrogated in a mass market cartoon in the west but comes up in mass market asian stuff of even low quality.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









Hodgepodge posted:

One of the big reasons that people didn't like the PT was that they were expecting the Jedi to be great wise leaders of a utopian society, but it turns out they are hypocritical liberal cops propping up capitalism.

Not the only reason, mind you. But a lot comes down to not realizing that George Lucas understands, for example, that the hero's journey is (at best) a narrative which lends itself very easily to fascism.

See the thing here is that looking at the original trilogy theres some stuff like the whole "are droids slaves" thing and the reference to Triumph of the Will and so on, but the story doesn't really work if you want to say that Lucas was trying to tell a story where the hero's journey is bad (compare Dune, where its pretty obvious). Of course you can read it against the intention of the author and of course that is more or less what the prequels are doing, but I don't think that the OT is like a really deep cover Vervohoven or something

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The Matrix was also heavily inspired by Ghost in the Shell, and the central philosophical problem of GitS is whether the "authenticity" of the self and the lived experience has any inherent value. The conclusion being that authenticity doesn't matter, and you shouldn't reject the opportunity to transition into a greater form out of some fear that you'll lose it.

Which is also why the American Ghost in the Shell is one of the worst adaptations ever made. Just thinking about it is pissing me off.

i mean it isn't perfect but https://youtu.be/cAPDFwHjUf8 is p. good for a guy who also like to draw bbd gangbangs

Hodgepodge has issued a correction as of 17:05 on Nov 19, 2019

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




StashAugustine posted:

See the thing here is that looking at the original trilogy theres some stuff like the whole "are droids slaves" thing and the reference to Triumph of the Will and so on, but the story doesn't really work if you want to say that Lucas was trying to tell a story where the hero's journey is bad (compare Dune, where its pretty obvious). Of course you can read it against the intention of the author and of course that is more or less what the prequels are doing, but I don't think that the OT is like a really deep cover Vervohoven or something

It isn't satirical until the PT, but I do think he wanted the viewer to realize that there's more than a black and white fairy tale beneath the surface of the OT.

And also for their parents to buy, like, so many toys.

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Fully Automated Luxury Space Dog


StashAugustine posted:

I am entirely okay with a reading of the prequels that its about the Jedi hubris that blows up the galaxy because their heads are firmly up their own asses, in fact I thought that was pretty obvious from any reasonable viewing; that doesn't change the fact that they're boring as hell

Lucas's movies never confront the contradictions of the universe because they're all trying to do the epic hero's journey to have a satisfying narrative, but at least they're there. The Disney movies on the other hand do the liberal thing where it recognizes the contradictions and questions them, but ultimately reaffirms them. Rei gets the chance to destroy the Jedi/Sith binary but rejects it because uh the Sith are mean and being mean is bad. It's good to not be bad. If there weren't any Jedi we wouldn't have a franchise.

Serf
May 5, 2011




StashAugustine posted:

See the thing here is that looking at the original trilogy theres some stuff like the whole "are droids slaves" thing and the reference to Triumph of the Will and so on, but the story doesn't really work if you want to say that Lucas was trying to tell a story where the hero's journey is bad (compare Dune, where its pretty obvious). Of course you can read it against the intention of the author and of course that is more or less what the prequels are doing, but I don't think that the OT is like a really deep cover Vervohoven or something

i'm pretty sure he became annoyed with the fans and the prequels are in part a creation of spite where he wanted to tear down their heroes

also the prequels are an interesting fictionalization of the fall of the weimar republic

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Lucas's movies never confront the contradictions of the universe because they're all trying to do the epic hero's journey to have a satisfying narrative, but at least they're there. The Disney movies on the other hand do the liberal thing where it recognizes the contradictions and questions them, but ultimately reaffirms them. Rei gets the chance to destroy the Jedi/Sith binary but rejects it because uh the Sith are mean and being mean is bad. It's good to not be bad. If there weren't any Jedi we wouldn't have a franchise.

its like the marx quote, except it's the first time as myth, the second as (satirical) tragedy, and the third time as farce

Dr. Killjoy
Oct 9, 2012

:thunk::mason::brainworms::tinfoil::thunkher:


Star Wars eu gave us the wonderful romance between the Cantina wolf man and space lamprey and detailed the bartender abandoning his robo racism by befriending a robot blender to juice Greedo’s corpse in, so I would never call it bad

been re-reading the Ennis Punisher comics and I gotta say not a lot of love for rap

or nu-metal

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


The System MAstery guys are doing a podcast on the old Star Wars EU where they slowly read through it, it owns.

https://systemmasterypodcast.com/category/expounded-universe/

coathat
May 21, 2007



Serf posted:

let me correct myself here, i think lucas and avellone detest the fans of star wars, or at least treat them with derision. which honestly, star wars fans deserve. the fixation on space magic and laser swords, well into adulthood, is pretty dire. there are deeper themes, as we've discussed, but if you ask people to look at them they recoil in disgust

this, but its "wow, cool lightsaber!"


The gundam fans are right. the pathetic moralizing of the story is vastly inferior to the mechs

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012


I don't really like star wars tbh

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





mandatory lesbian posted:

I don't really like star wars tbh

Neat, which 80s science fiction or fantasy do you like then?

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


durr I hate sports ball

Mercrom
Jul 17, 2009


star wars has nice aesthetics but is bad in every other way

Bro Dad
Mar 26, 2010




lets go mechs baby love the mechs

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Fully Automated Luxury Space Dog


(seeing Dozle Zabi in a Big Zam)
now dis is what I voted for baby

Serf
May 5, 2011




coathat posted:

The gundam fans are right. the pathetic moralizing of the story is vastly inferior to the mechs

the fans are almost always wrong

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012


I don't really like star wars tbh

LGD
Sep 25, 2004



NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER NEW CATS TRAILER


e:
as you can tell I'm very excited

cats maybe look a little less freaky in this? and the surrounding framing device looks even dumber

cats is an incredibly, incredibly stupid musical and I don't know that putting more emphasis on what passes for its "plot" was the correct creative decision

and Macavity appearing to have a large speaking role and being able to vanish into magical sparkles is certainly... a choice you can make

e2: though I guess he is described as having the ability to levitate and Mr Mistoffelees is a thing, and some versions depict him as having hypnotic powers, so I suppose there is no reason he shouldn't be a straight up evil wizard in the film I guess

LGD has issued a correction as of 23:50 on Nov 19, 2019

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





mandatory lesbian posted:

I don't really like star wars tbh

Which 1980s science fiction or fantasy do you like, then? Back to the future?

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

medio de fonte leporum surgo amariter




the UK election debate tonight had a stage that looked like Tron

Bro Dad
Mar 26, 2010




what was corbyn's time on the light cycle?

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010



Legit Cyberpunk





Over Easy posted:

Droids are not slaves. It's like if your couch was programmed to say "ouch" every time you sat on it. Just real perverse world building that makes the star warp universe feel so alien and alive

I thought I was being ridiculous enough, but apparently not: yes of course droids are enslaved, they have volition intelligence and self awareness.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




sebmojo posted:

I thought I was being ridiculous enough, but apparently not: yes of course droids are enslaved, they have volition intelligence and self awareness.

you have no idea how long arguments about this went on in CineD. you do not know the power stupidity of the dark side fandom.

i mean, no one is here to specifically talk about star wars so i guess it makes sense that there would be way more people willing to actually think about star wars for the 1.5 seconds it takes to grasp the extremely obvious, or at least actually discuss the ideology involved in interpretation honestly

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010



Legit Cyberpunk





Hodgepodge posted:

you have no idea how long arguments about this went on in CineD. you do not know the power stupidity of the dark side fandom.

i mean, no one is here to specifically talk about star wars so i guess it makes sense that there would be way more people willing to actually think about star wars for the 1.5 seconds it takes to grasp the extremely obvious, or at least actually discuss the ideology involved in interpretation honestly

I mean there's a chinese room argument that they're just programmed to look like they have awareness, but the chinese room is and always has been epic dumb bull poo poo for idiots, no droid ever does anything but act like a person

quote:

"Trurl! Our perfection is our curse, for it draws down upon our every endeavor no end of unforeseeable consequences!" Klapaucius said in a stentorian voice. "If an imperfect imitator, wishing to inflict pain, were to build himself a crude idol of wood or wax, and further give it some makeshift semblance of a sentient being, his torture of the thing would be a paltry mockery indeed! But consider a succession of improvements on this practice! Consider the next sculptor, who builds a doll with a recording in its belly, that it may groan beneath his blows; consider a doll which, when beaten, begs for mercy, no longer a crude idol, but a homeostat; consider a doll that sheds tears, a doll that bleeds, a doll that fears death, though it also longs for the peace that only death can bring! Don't you see, when the imitator is perfect, so must be the imitation, and the semblance becomes the truth, the pretense a reality! Trurl, you took an untold number of creatures capable of suffering and abandoned them forever to the rule of a wicked tyrant.... Trurl, you have committed a terrible crime!"

"Sheer sophistry!" shouted Trurl, all the louder because he felt the force of his friend's argument. "Electrons meander not only in our brains, but in phonograph records as well, which proves nothing, and certainly gives no grounds for such hypostatical analogies! The subjects of that monster Excelsius do in fact die when decapitated, sob, fight, and fall in love, since that is how I set up the parameters, but it's impossible to say, Klapaucius, that they feel anything in the process—the electrons jumping around in their heads will tell you nothing of that!"

"And if I were to look inside your head, I would also see nothing but electrons," replied Klapaucius. "Come now, don't pretend not to understand what I'm saying, I know you're not that stupid! A phonograph record won't run errands for you, won't beg for mercy or fall on its knees! You say there's no way of knowing whether Excelsius's subjects groan, when beaten, purely because of the electrons hopping about inside—like wheels grinding out the mimicry of a voice—or whether they really groan, that is, because they honestly experience the pain? A pretty distinction, this! No, Trurl, a sufferer is not one who hands you his suffering, that you may touch it, weigh it, bite it like a coin; a sufferer is one who behaves like a sufferer! Prove to me here and now, once and for all, that they do not feel, that they do not think, that they do not in any way exist as being conscious of their enclosure between the two abysses of oblivion—the abyss before birth and the abyss that follows death—prove this to me, Trurl, and I'll leave you be! Prove that you only imitated suffering, and did not create it!

sebmojo has issued a correction as of 02:28 on Nov 20, 2019

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




sebmojo posted:

I mean there's a chinese room argument that they're just programmed to look like they have awareness, but the chinese room is and always has been epic dumb bull poo poo for idiots, no droid ever does anything but act like a person

I mean, as relatively weak as the Roman/Greek/Christian/Kantian argument that we should treat animals well despite the belief that they are somehow automatons because of the habits and qualities that doing/not doing so cultivates is compared to literally every other belief system is, it does remain a strong argument that we should not allow even non-sentient torture dolls.

Also for Kant this also applied to children because Reason was a loving fetish in the Enlightenment and his (very real) genius was thoroughly and consistently articulating that paradigm.

Percelus
Sep 9, 2012

My command, your wish is



Stairmaster posted:

the prequels are watchable

not really

just the fact everything is shot with green screen with no practical effects and minimal actual scenery alone makes it unwatchable

not even touching the script, the acting, etc

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Percelus posted:

not really

just the fact everything is shot with green screen with no practical effects and minimal actual scenery alone makes it unwatchable

not even touching the script, the acting, etc

There's more miniatures and practical effects in the Prequels than in the Sequels. And in the Originals, actually.

They went for a shiny golden aesthetic for the shiny golden age.

Farm Frenzy
Jan 3, 2007



MonsieurChoc posted:

There's more miniatures and practical effects in the Prequels than in the Sequels. And in the Originals, actually.

They went for a shiny golden aesthetic for the shiny golden age.

people always make this correction as if it addresses the movies looking like a ps3 game

Mercrom
Jul 17, 2009


the star wars prequels look way better than any marvel movie ive seen

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Farm Frenzy
Jan 3, 2007



Mercrom posted:

the star wars prequels look way better than any marvel movie ive seen

piss looks better than vomit

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