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Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER


Clapping Larry

sephiRoth IRA posted:

I guess I will agree that the TMO isn’t being overused in the RWC, but I will argue that when it is used it is 100% a momentum killer, especially with regards to hits. A team can be on a tear, have a marginally questionable tackle that results in no injuries, and have the TMO just murder their progress with a silly penalty. We’ve already seen this happen. I guess I want the TMO there for the serious stuff, but I’d much rather it be play on most of the time.

The counter point is that the number of concussions is down 12% in this world cup compared to the last one.

Thing is eventually teams and players adapt their techniques to things like the stricter rules on tackling and these instances won't happen. Taking a long term view though anything that makes the sport safer without fundamentally changing it is a good thing.

If you've read Sam Warburton's biography you'll know how much of a physical toll this game can take on players. He was basically, as a human being, shattered.

Even then though, compare that to say American Football, a sport that refuses to alter or change how the game is played despite the fact players are leaving physically and mentally damaged. Either the sport will end up changing anyway, and future generations will criticise today's fans and teams for the barbarity, or it won't change and it becomes totally exploitative, picking people, chewing them up, and spitting them out to an early death. The only people willing to participate being people who have no other option. I couldn't and wouldn't support a sport that deliberately does that to people.

So when the alternative is, shall we say, some teething issues while the game is made safer, I'm totally OK with that. I want to have kids some day and be able to say to them "How about signing up to the rugby team? Your dad used to play rugby" without worrying that if they were too good, I'd need to seriously worry for their health.

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Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER


Clapping Larry

On a separate note it looks like, somehow, both England and SA are back to full strength for the final. So it should be a real contest of how good their best is, avoiding excuses around injuries.

lenoon
Jan 7, 2010



Weíre definitely seeing a change in rugby which canít be for anything but the good. If hits keep getting reviewed and penalties awarded for dangerous and edge of dangerous behaviour then teams will adapt by the next time, which leaves players safer and thatís significantly more important than a slightly more flowing game. Rugby is quite stop start anyway as each scrum takes a million years, thereís so many exciting ways to cheat and have it look like the other teamís fault.

I feel like thereís been more concussions from accidental/unavoidable stuff this year than from foul play and thatís great progress.

tarbrush
Feb 7, 2011

But Schefter said they Love Herbert?!


Kitchner posted:

On a separate note it looks like, somehow, both England and SA are back to full strength for the final. So it should be a real contest of how good their best is, avoiding excuses around injuries.

Is Heinz fit again? That'd be a nice boost.

Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012






sephiRoth IRA posted:

I guess I will agree that the TMO isnít being overused in the RWC, but I will argue that when it is used it is 100% a momentum killer, especially with regards to hits. A team can be on a tear, have a marginally questionable tackle that results in no injuries, and have the TMO just murder their progress with a silly penalty. Weíve already seen this happen. I guess I want the TMO there for the serious stuff, but Iíd much rather it be play on most of the time.

Dangerous play should always be penalised, the TMO didn't make Vahaamahina elbow the guy in the head. You've got it backwards, the TMO isn't giving away silly penalties, the players are it's just they're being caught now.

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007




lenoon posted:

Weíre definitely seeing a change in rugby which canít be for anything but the good. If hits keep getting reviewed and penalties awarded for dangerous and edge of dangerous behaviour then teams will adapt by the next time, which leaves players safer and thatís significantly more important than a slightly more flowing game. Rugby is quite stop start anyway as each scrum takes a million years, thereís so many exciting ways to cheat and have it look like the other teamís fault.

I feel like thereís been more concussions from accidental/unavoidable stuff this year than from foul play and thatís great progress.

This has been a good part about watching the World Cup, the tackles and hits are hard but pretty clean. How rugby handles the concussion tests including with the substitution is something I think a few other sports could learn from (AFL and itís short-rear end bench say hi).

Also Iíve been frustrated with the TMO in the Premier League of late (the NFL is beyond gone down the lawyerly sinkhole) but I think itís been a decent balance in the RWC. The big issue in rugby and other sports is how much do you gain from the interruption - are you correcting incredibly obvious moments, or is it sharpening a razor blade that little bit more? The use of TMO to check major events (like some of the red cards) in the RWC has been good, but things like chalking soccer goals off for minute poo poo is beyond pedantic and a bad use.

Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012






Kitchner posted:

The counter point is that the number of concussions is down 12% in this world cup compared to the last one.

Thing is eventually teams and players adapt their techniques to things like the stricter rules on tackling and these instances won't happen. Taking a long term view though anything that makes the sport safer without fundamentally changing it is a good thing.

If you've read Sam Warburton's biography you'll know how much of a physical toll this game can take on players. He was basically, as a human being, shattered.

Even then though, compare that to say American Football, a sport that refuses to alter or change how the game is played despite the fact players are leaving physically and mentally damaged. Either the sport will end up changing anyway, and future generations will criticise today's fans and teams for the barbarity, or it won't change and it becomes totally exploitative, picking people, chewing them up, and spitting them out to an early death. The only people willing to participate being people who have no other option. I couldn't and wouldn't support a sport that deliberately does that to people.

So when the alternative is, shall we say, some teething issues while the game is made safer, I'm totally OK with that. I want to have kids some day and be able to say to them "How about signing up to the rugby team? Your dad used to play rugby" without worrying that if they were too good, I'd need to seriously worry for their health.

I watched an interesting video about college footall in the America that has changed the rules to disallowed contact with the head and they do what they call 'Rugby' tackling now and it's made a massive difference to player safety.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8MwFXvICvE

Flayer
Sep 13, 2003

Enjoyment and excitement



Buglord

I'm all for TMO reviewing dangerous play but the second England try that was disallowed vs NZ was an absolute joke of a decision and an example of how TMO should not be used.

Apollodorus
Feb 13, 2010

TEST YOUR MIGHT


I recall more than one NFL player saying theyíd feel safer if they played without helmets.

Apollodorus
Feb 13, 2010

TEST YOUR MIGHT


Flayer posted:

I'm all for TMO reviewing dangerous play but the second England try that was disallowed vs NZ was an absolute joke of a decision and an example of how TMO should not be used.

The England players almost certainly had no idea theyíd passed the ball forwardóbut hey it looked like the right call to me. The ABs would have complained otherwise I bet.

Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER


Clapping Larry

Flayer posted:

I'm all for TMO reviewing dangerous play but the second England try that was disallowed vs NZ was an absolute joke of a decision and an example of how TMO should not be used.

Someone questioning a try and saying "hey, they passed the ball forward" and the referee going "OK fine, let's watch the video" is like literally the best outcome. Otherwise it goes "hey he passed the ball forward" "I didn't see it, can't say for sure".

You can argue about the decision etc all you want, but it's better to argue over very marginal decisions reviewed on pitch via video, than argue about much more obvious but not witnessed issues where all the fans can see it should be disallowed/allowed but the ref can't actually double check what happened using the video being watched by fans.

Julio Cruz
May 19, 2006



video replay is fine in theory but when you have to spend 2-3 minutes going frame-by-frame to see if an infraction occurred that's just too much

there should be a blanket rule across all sports of "30 seconds maximum per replay and if you can't make a call by then the decision on the field stands"

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007




Julio Cruz posted:

there should be a blanket rule across all sports of "30 seconds maximum per replay and if you can't make a call by then the decision on the field stands"

absolutely, that would help quite a bit.

I'm glad rugby hasn't succumbed to the level of laws writing that the NFL has done, you practically need a law degree to determine what is and isn't a catch anymore.

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.



Grimey Drawer

No spontaneous interruption, no looking at the last ten phases of build up play when there's a questionable grounding.
Yes "A thing might have happened but I did not see it clearly, did that thing happen?"

runoverbobby
Apr 21, 2007

Fighting like beavers.


I like being able to celebrate tries, goals and LBWs as they happen, instead of needing to question whether what I just saw actually happened, scanning the field for a player calling for a review or a referee drawing a box in the air.

And frankly I donít care about correcting awful decisions. The TMO controversially nitpicks his way into a bad decision often enough that allowing an obviously wrong on-field decision to stand is less bad because itís more hilarious and less disruptive. This includes decisions against my team; Iím not a moody adolescent anymore - itís not the end of the world.

Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012






runoverbobby posted:

I like being able to celebrate tries, goals and LBWs as they happen, instead of needing to question whether what I just saw actually happened, scanning the field for a player calling for a review or a referee drawing a box in the air.

And frankly I donít care about correcting awful decisions. The TMO controversially nitpicks his way into a bad decision often enough that allowing an obviously wrong on-field decision to stand is less bad because itís more hilarious and less disruptive. This includes decisions against my team; Iím not a moody adolescent anymore - itís not the end of the world.

You're right, what is even the point of refs? Just as long as everyone has fun at the end of the day.

runoverbobby
Apr 21, 2007

Fighting like beavers.


Iím actually saying I want people to be infuriated but to learn to live with it. But ok.

stavros880
May 1, 2005
I like monkeys

goatface posted:

no looking at the last ten phases of build up play when there's a questionable grounding.

They shouldn't be doing this anyway. The current protocol is to go back maximum of two rucks/mauls. Obviously, like so many of the other laws, this gets ignored whenever it is convenient.

Mrenda
Mar 14, 2012



Going back to the haka chat, my two favourite hakas (or at least responses/haka moments) both involve Irish teams. The first is the Munster v Maoris game when the munster kiwi players (including Doug Howlett) did their a haka before the kiwis did theirs, to intense noise, then the crowd went silent for the NZL haka. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13fGHSqHTwA (Munster won that game.)

The other is a more touching moment, in the New Zealand Ireland game in Chicago. With Anthony Foley dying a few days before hand, and the Irish team forming an eight (Foley played eight) in front of the haka.

sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


Aramoro posted:

Dangerous play should always be penalised, the TMO didn't make Vahaamahina elbow the guy in the head. You've got it backwards, the TMO isn't giving away silly penalties, the players are it's just they're being caught now.

Thatís not what Iím saying at all. I think that particular example is a great reason why the TMO should be kept (despite all my hyperbolic commentary otherwise). But as Julio mentioned, they spend minutes just going over every agonizing frame and I think that sucks. If the penalty isnít immediately noticeable in a short amount of time then just let the play on the field stand. Iíd rather bad calls sometimes go through than have the TMO convincing the on field ref that something happened via three minutes of frame-by-frame.

Having the TMO call down to Barnes to ask to review play is an stupid application of the process! They should be there as a backup, not as a primary form of correction.

Kitchner
Nov 9, 2012

IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER


Clapping Larry

runoverbobby posted:

I’m actually saying I want people to be infuriated but to learn to live with it. But ok.

Or alternatively, with very little impact on the game, you can not infuriate the fans who pay money to watch your game and have everyone at least grudgingly accepting that the sort of farces you see with some refereeing decisions in football won't happen here?

The only argument against how rugby uses TMOs generally that makes any sense to me is the guy who basically said that having the ref be an incompetent idiot who fucks up the game is exciting sometimes because you talk about it for ages.

He was a huge football fan and it didn't surprise me at all that he'd rather talk about unique refereeing decisions than actual football.

Mister Chief
Jun 6, 2011



Mrenda posted:

Going back to the haka chat, my two favourite hakas (or at least responses/haka moments) both involve Irish teams. The first is the Munster v Maoris game when the munster kiwi players (including Doug Howlett) did their a haka before the kiwis did theirs, to intense noise, then the crowd went silent for the NZL haka. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13fGHSqHTwA (Munster won that game.)

The other is a more touching moment, in the New Zealand Ireland game in Chicago. With Anthony Foley dying a few days before hand, and the Irish team forming an eight (Foley played eight) in front of the haka.



That was against the All Blacks themselves and Munster lost towards the end.

Mrenda
Mar 14, 2012



Mister Chief posted:

That was against the All Blacks themselves and Munster lost towards the end.

Ah, yeah. I should have remembered that. I had family at the game (and was insanely jealous.) It was the Maoris and Australia we beat.

Vagabundo
Mar 20, 2007

Donncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
Donncha wish your girlfriend was a freak like me?


So this will be the first time since the game's gone professional that all three SANZAR teams will be looking for new coaches at the end of their international season.

Steve Hansen had already flagged he would be stepping down at the end of the Rugby World Cup to take up a contract in Japan.
Michael Cheika resigned after Australia's limp defeat to England in the quarterfinals, and likely quit before he was dismissed.
Rassie Erasmus has now stated he will step aside at the end of the tournament.

Eddie Jones was the sole survivor of the 3 SANZAR coaches after the 2003 tournament.
Steve Hansen was one of the survivors after the 2007 tournament, as part of the All Blacks' Three Wise Men coaching panel with Sir Graham Henry and Wayne Smith.

Smorgasbord
Jun 18, 2004

Our review identified changes needed to be made and, in Stephen, we have a coach who has a reputation for demanding the highest standards.


Flayer posted:

I'm all for TMO reviewing dangerous play but the second England try that was disallowed vs NZ was an absolute joke of a decision and an example of how TMO should not be used.

"Wahhh the TMO correctly ruled out a try for my team due to a forward pass/knock on "

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.



Grimey Drawer

Ok lads, try not to lose too embarrassingly.

Skarsnik
Oct 21, 2008

I...AM...RUUUDE!






Shameful lack of haka response

Smorgasbord
Jun 18, 2004

Our review identified changes needed to be made and, in Stephen, we have a coach who has a reputation for demanding the highest standards.


I know Kapa o Pango has more meaning to the team but Ka Mate will always be the superior haka to me.

Mrenda
Mar 14, 2012



Taking the points in the third place playoff. Shameful behaviour or respecting Wales?

Edit: A shameful miss.

tarbrush
Feb 7, 2011

But Schefter said they Love Herbert?!


Smorgasbord posted:

I know Kapa o Pango has more meaning to the team but Ka Mate will always be the superior haka to me.

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.



Grimey Drawer

Shameful missing.

Smorgasbord
Jun 18, 2004

Our review identified changes needed to be made and, in Stephen, we have a coach who has a reputation for demanding the highest standards.


Mrenda posted:

Taking the points in the third place playoff. Shameful behaviour or respecting Wales?

Edit: A shameful miss.

Yeah that's the rugby gods saying loving go for the try.

edit: LURCH IN THE CLEAR OFFLOADING FOR MADEYE!

Mrenda
Mar 14, 2012



They'll need a lot more tries like that if they'll be wanting their honour restored.

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.



Grimey Drawer

Welp. It begins.

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004




Good try, some great passing. Now I get to go out and possibly miss the rest of the game.

Skarsnik
Oct 21, 2008

I...AM...RUUUDE!






We've not bothered opening early this morning for the game, and this is a pub in Cardiff. So far 3 people have knocked on the door asking if we are open and one of which was an old boy who sounded like he was already on his 3rd or 4th pint of smooth

So i think it was the right decision

E: the cleaner just legit screamed 'SHAMEFUL' from across the other side of the pub

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.



Grimey Drawer

The radio commentator just said Priestland rather than Patchell and I physically flinched.

Smorgasbord
Jun 18, 2004

Our review identified changes needed to be made and, in Stephen, we have a coach who has a reputation for demanding the highest standards.


Farewell try for Ben from Accounts

The Rabbi T. White
Jul 17, 2008



Smorgasbord posted:

Farewell try for Ben from Accounts

Yeah he hasnít looked that good for a couple of years, sadly. That was stellar, though.

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Smorgasbord
Jun 18, 2004

Our review identified changes needed to be made and, in Stephen, we have a coach who has a reputation for demanding the highest standards.


Smith to Smith

edit: NZ rugby fans actually getting a crowd song going, wow

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