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There's also the idea that maybe this isn't the perfect solution, sure. Maybe they can come up with ways so that nobody actually needs the new door. They've got infinity to work on it, and this team works well with new problems. They've always flown from stopgap to stopgap, maybe this is just another stopgap, one to let existence hold on while they figure out what else they can do, because figuring out what the next solution will be never ends. Like Michael was saying, once you take on responsibility for something so monumental it's sisyphean, they're gonna keep rolling that boulder up a hill.
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Jan 27, 2020 18:27
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The door's going to be a fakeout and lead to the other side of the room
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Jan 27, 2020 18:28
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It's Jesus. It was always Jesus.
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Jan 27, 2020 18:39
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Krowley posted:It's Jesus. It was always Jesus. The old Insane Clown Posse gambit
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Jan 27, 2020 18:43
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Krowley posted:It's Doug Forcett. It was always Doug Forcett.
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Jan 27, 2020 20:26
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Wild speculation: The gang thought The Bad Place was cheating to get all humans but figured out that it was just the point totals were becoming impossible to reach the threshold for The Good Place. What if this actually was tinkered with, or the cutoff raised, by The Good Place? They seemed to be really struggling to keep the humans they had entertained and were underhandedly quick to toss their responsibilities on Michael. What if they started freaking out at the idea of exponentially more humans showing up that they couldn't deal with and rigged the system to keep the problem from becoming more unmanageable? If that's the case, all of their bureaucracy wasn't because they were over-agreeable idiots, but deliberately to keep any change to the level of humans in The Good Place from happening. The only times they tossed all of the red tape out of the window was when Michael showed up, and before that? They immediately jumped in with our heroes making their case to The Judge without any committees or whatever when they must have known that it would lead to The Judge rebooting reality and giving The Good Place a billion year break. (I say The Good Place must have known what such a ruling would mean because even The Judge seemed surprised that our four didn't know what a victory ruling implied until she delivered it.)
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Jan 27, 2020 20:35
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Watched the last two episodes again. One of the things I noticed is how off the pacing is in both of them. There's also a big thematic similarity in terms of setup with the good place committee running off and seasons 3+4 around reforming hell and uplifting Michael & team cockroach. I think it might have been planned to have a season 5 to address good place problems, and it couldn't come together for some reason. prior seasons have always been centered around One Big Philosophical Issue, this season has two. The scene with Michael signing his life away would have been as big a season cliffhanger as any other in the show's history. I also think a lot of the exposition has been rushed: the Jeremy Bearimy title card was weird and the team just announcing "here's a mystery door for when you're too tired of the good place" was rushed, too. They've always built up to decisions like those in the past to help the audience understand them better. I'm rambling now, but these are the things I saw. I don't enjoy the show any less, but there's been some rough edges this season.
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Jan 27, 2020 20:53
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As the series wraps up, I know actually building a cosmology is not what the series was interested in. Still, it bugs me that every supernatural being has been introduced as exclusively concerned with building and maintaining afterlives and not the rest of existence, including the Judge. But also the judge has the unilateral authority to reset the living universe.
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Jan 27, 2020 21:45
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RBA Starblade posted:The door's going to be a fakeout and lead to the other side of the room it contains Half Life 3
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Jan 27, 2020 21:57
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luxury handset posted:it contains Half Life 3 No, it's the new Animal Crossing
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Jan 27, 2020 22:02
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Azhais posted:Stone Cold better be there I would be a little disappointing if he doesn't make a cameo. Although that might turn out bad for Chidi.
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Jan 27, 2020 22:03
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Dr Christmas posted:As the series wraps up, I know actually building a cosmology is not what the series was interested in. Still, it bugs me that every supernatural being has been introduced as exclusively concerned with building and maintaining afterlives and not the rest of existence, including the Judge. But also the judge has the unilateral authority to reset the living universe. Who doesn't want to know where the good place beings ran off to? What's their vacation look like?
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Jan 27, 2020 22:05
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Propaniac posted:I don't get why people think it's sad or depressing to see someone realize that they have literally done Everything They Could Ever Want To Do, for as long as they want to. That's what going through the final door means. Yeah, I'm really torn between thinking the final scene is them all going through the door together or the episode begins with a flashforward of a million years and they go through the door 10 minutes into the show and something insane happens.
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Jan 27, 2020 22:08
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ashpanash posted:I think the discussion is interesting, but I do want to clarify that the concept that people in the good place would be burnt out and be brain zombies after infinite pleasure is a good one, and a very natural place for the show to start mining stories from. I'm not sure why you think it goes against the idea of the show. I do think Suicide Door is a very, very bold move for a broadcast network comedy show, for so many reasons. But if the theory is "What do we owe to each other" isn't a particular answer "letting people go who want to go"?
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Jan 27, 2020 22:13
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They call those that work for the Bad Place "Demons", but AFAIK they haven't called the Good Place Committee "Angels".
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Jan 27, 2020 22:47
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Argue posted:The real Good Place would surely have infinite seasons of all your favorite shows--versions which never jump the shark, so I don't see the problem with living forever. I've been thinking more and more about this post. The problem is supposed to be that eventually you just do everything. Novelty runs out eventually. But shouldn't there also be infinite novelty itself? Infinite good seasons of your favorite show is just one example.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:01
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Sub Rosa posted:I've been thinking more and more about this post. The problem is supposed to be that eventually you just do everything. Novelty runs out eventually. But shouldn't there also be infinite novelty itself? Infinite good seasons of your favorite show is just one example. Who knows. Maybe there's an infinite number of episodes but a finite number of ways to enjoy them.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:03
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:No, it's the new Animal Crossing
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Jan 28, 2020 00:04
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Sub Rosa posted:I've been thinking more and more about this post. The problem is supposed to be that eventually you just do everything. Novelty runs out eventually. But shouldn't there also be infinite novelty itself? Infinite good seasons of your favorite show is just one example. It's diminishing returns though. There's a big difference between 4 seasons of a show and 100 seasons of a show. There's far less of a difference between 100 seasons of a show and 200 seasons of the same show. You can only add so much to something before it too becomes blasé. The first few times I eat the most perfectly cooked steak dinner will be awesome. By the 100th time, it's just normal and boring. There comes a point where nothing you can imagine would not be played out.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:06
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Mordiceius posted:It's diminishing returns though. There's a big difference between 4 seasons of a show and 100 seasons of a show. There's far less of a difference between 100 seasons of a show and 200 seasons of the same show. You can only add so much to something before it too becomes blasé. I fundamentally disagree with this. I guess if the afterlife is how it's displayed here (where you're just a human on what's basically a holodeck) then yea, I guess. But why would you be? We're letting our brains be constrained by what exists now and not thinking in terms of being an infinite omnipotent being. A tree is never bored, you're a being that can be that tree or anything you can imagine in that space. At least in theory. And I've said it already but man the original goal of "points are broken" has been so totally and utterly loving forgotten, I really hope they kinda address it in the next episode.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:33
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Mordiceius posted:It's diminishing returns though. There's a big difference between 4 seasons of a show and 100 seasons of a show. There's far less of a difference between 100 seasons of a show and 200 seasons of the same show. You can only add so much to something before it too becomes blasé. You say that like there aren't people who watch certain movies religiously--or who read the Bible religiously. When it comes to consuming media or making your own experiences, the most essential limitation isn't how much the experience changes, but rather how much the experience changes you. When you yourself change, that new version of you can return to old experiences and pull something new out of it. The real question of the afterlife, as I see it, is not whether there's infinite enjoyment to be had, but rather whether the you who experiences that enjoyment is allowed to become someone new and continue to grow and change. If that is allowed to happen, then our own infinite capacity for change could very well keep up with an infinite storehouse of experiences. This issue of change is, I think, where a lot of the debate here is centered. People tend not to change (or at least not change as much) if they aren't challenged in some way. There are many ways to challenge someone, but since many of these methods are painful or upsetting it's hard to imagine that they'd be presented in The Good Place. If that's true, then The Good Place is indeed a happiness pit where you are forced to experience nothing but pleasure until life itself takes on the consistency of paste and the flavor of cardboard. However, if The Good Place can offer real challenges and reasons to expand your understanding and expectations, then life can be good indefinitely. Maybe even infinitely. That's why I think the idea of the Oblivion Door makes sense, although perhaps not for the exact reason the show provides. The Oblivion Door presents the ultimate change, the move between existence and nonexistence, and so it shows that The Good Place is now prepared to challenge its occupants and encourage its occupants to challenge themselves and each other. If what I'm saying here has any real basis, then maybe it's not death that gives life meaning, not exactly. It's the fact that tomorrow is unpredictable and can be either better or worse that makes it worth living another day to see what happens. At any rate, that's what I've always thought.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:47
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ashpanash posted:I think the discussion is interesting, but I do want to clarify that the concept that people in the good place would be burnt out and be brain zombies after infinite pleasure is a good one, and a very natural place for the show to start mining stories from. PostNouveau posted:I mean it's gotta be suicide. They control all space and time at this point. The judge (who appears to be the closest thing to a singular God as the show has) was about to erase everyone an episode ago, and everyone was desperately fighting against that. They weren't like "Well, we don't know what will happen when you erase us all what a neat mystery". Dr Christmas posted:As the series wraps up, I know actually building a cosmology is not what the series was interested in. Still, it bugs me that every supernatural being has been introduced as exclusively concerned with building and maintaining afterlives and not the rest of existence, including the Judge. But also the judge has the unilateral authority to reset the living universe. are you even kidding me with these grade-school takes. the show has run laps around these comments, for years now, but you're still trying to say this bush-league stuff is relevant
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Jan 28, 2020 05:17
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I've finally started listening to the Good Place podcast and it's fantastic.
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Jan 28, 2020 07:00
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8one6 posted:I've finally started listening to the Good Place podcast and it's fantastic. Yeah. it's really good and I'm glad I got caught up to it before now.
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Jan 28, 2020 08:26
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Taear posted:I fundamentally disagree with this. I guess if the afterlife is how it's displayed here (where you're just a human on what's basically a holodeck) then yea, I guess. But why would you be? We're letting our brains be constrained by what exists now and not thinking in terms of being an infinite omnipotent being. The people in the afterlife within the show are not and never have been presented as omnipotent beings. The only beings within the show who are omnipotent are the Janets, most of whom don't feel anything in the first place because their consciousness is so basic and even Janet Janet isn't entirely omnipotent or omniscient, since she's had a few limitations presented to us. The people (and even the demons really) within the show are just humans in a new state, with all the flaws that entails, including the ability to experience boredom and that's kind of central to the show's premise since while the show is ostensibly set in the afterlife, it's still about finding joy and being good to each other in life regardless. Which means they cannot be not human. Taear posted:A tree is never bored, you're a being that can be that tree or anything you can imagine in that space. At least in theory. A tree is never stimulated either, because a tree is never anything; it just is so far as we know. It has no consciousness of any kind to the best of our ability to determine. Being a tree for all eternity is effectively the same as being a brain zombie, or really, the same as being dead for all eternity. Taear posted:And I've said it already but man the original goal of "points are broken" has been so totally and utterly loving forgotten, I really hope they kinda address it in the next episode. It was forgotten because they realized that the points were just the symptoms of a broken system and that it was the system that needed fixing and not the points in particular. tsob fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Jan 28, 2020 |
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Jan 28, 2020 08:31
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I really liked the idea that infinite pleasure means eventually your brain turns to mush as it is one of the biggest reasons I never understood religion when I was at school. I thought that infinite pleasure in heaven/infinite pain in hell would eventually get boring if I was still the human mind I was down here. We can only deal with something so much until it becomes rote and so the concept of your eternity being determined by a few finite decades seemed weird and unfair - plus I was never really sure who was right when so many religions have differing philosophies. (I think if I had been religious, then it may have been Sikhism as when I visited their temple, the guy explaining the tenets and ideas made the most compelling argument of the five we had gone to). I have no idea where the next episode is going to go, but I find the notion of being able to control your own existence a healthy and positive one. It feels as though that is what life generally is day to day, but a struggle to control yourself and your surroundings. The ultimate control of whether you exist was denied you at birth, so having it after death feels like the best stopping point.
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Jan 28, 2020 08:56
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One thing we are absolutely going to see next week is Kamilah (or possibly the parents) turning up and realising that the biggest thing they will ever be known for for all eternity is for being related to Tahani, Saviour of Existence.
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Jan 28, 2020 09:17
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Strom Cuzewon posted:That means death has some contribution to life's meaning, but its often used to mean "Death allows life to find a purpose" which comes awfully close to saying that death is a good thing. Yeah, the finality of peoples existence is a huge deal, but death loving sucks. I have Some News about a huge chunk of Eastern philosophy and theology. The Merkinman posted:They call those that work for the Bad Place "Demons", but AFAIK they haven't called the Good Place Committee "Angels". Eleanor does when she yells at them in one episode.
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Jan 28, 2020 10:55
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MikeJF posted:One thing we are absolutely going to see next week is Kamilah (or possibly the parents) turning up and realising that the biggest thing they will ever be known for for all eternity is for being related to Tahani, Saviour of Existence. I hadn't thought of that, and it's absolutely going to happen and it'll be great. Oh you must be Tahani's sister!
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Jan 28, 2020 13:51
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unless I misremember, the announcement of suicide door doesn't state where the door is, just that it exists, you still need to find it. Which could mean that in this omission they created the one thing that is not available in the good place - an obstacle to your goal. Of course the solution someone could come up with could be "hey janet move me to the door" but there is room for growth there.
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Jan 28, 2020 14:10
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A few strong closed eye magic mushroom trips will give you some answers as to the existence of the afterlife and what it is really like. Especially if you work at removing all hate from your life in between trips, especially self hate. If you want proof it's there, you just need some courage to find it. Walking into a church will not give you the answers. To tie this post to the show though, in the afterlife you don't sit around doing nothing, you do what you love. Don't just listen to music, create it. Don't just look at paintings, paint them. Don't just eat food, learn how to cook. Play sports and continue to improve at them. Make videogames for all your friends to play. And there is sex in the afterlife, but not monogamy. So you'll be pretty entertained from that.... CarlosTheDwarf fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jan 28, 2020 |
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Jan 28, 2020 14:34
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Mordiceius posted:It's diminishing returns though. There's a big difference between 4 seasons of a show and 100 seasons of a show. There's far less of a difference between 100 seasons of a show and 200 seasons of the same show. You can only add so much to something before it too becomes blasé. But not if there is an infinite number of possible foods/tv shows/experiences that could exist in a platonically perfect form. Eating the same perfect pizza forever would get boring, sure, but eating a new perfect meal in a new perfect setting, with new different perfect dinner companions, with new perfect music playing you have never heard? It's still a repetition of the experience of going out to dinner with cool people, and I'm sure I would want to break that up with alone time solo activities of which there are also infinite interesting ones, but I don't think I would ever really get tired of it.
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Jan 28, 2020 15:31
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Sub Rosa posted:But not if there is an infinite number of possible foods/tv shows/experiences that could exist in a platonically perfect form. Maybe the issue is that all this theoretically infinite stuff has to actually be created by intelligent beings, whether Janets or Good Place architects, and they aren't actually infinitely creative.
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Jan 28, 2020 15:37
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double nine posted:unless I misremember, the announcement of suicide door doesn't state where the door is, just that it exists, you still need to find it. I thought they showed it in the back of the room next to the "go anywhere real or imagined" door. Maybe I'm misremembering. (If so though, they really need to put a sign over them)
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Jan 28, 2020 15:39
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So I know it's a TV comedy and not deserving of the nitpick treatment, but if Janet knows everything why didn't she know that the Good Place was broken, or that no people had been allowed to enter in hundreds of years? She knows who went to the bad place, as she showed at the beginning and again when she tells Chidi that Aristotle was in the Bad Place because of slavery. But, I guess they can't make her truly omniscient because she would have seen through Michael's plan immediately and known she was in the Bad Place.
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Jan 28, 2020 15:41
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MikeJF posted:One thing we are absolutely going to see next week is Kamilah (or possibly the parents) turning up and realising that the biggest thing they will ever be known for for all eternity is for being related to Tahani, Saviour of Existence. That would be amazing but.... it’s not the good place for Kamilah, so I can’t see how it can happen. Actually, considering that each person was meant to have their own ideal party (but the cockroaches went together) how does that work with the other people? Surely they should be at their own party?
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Jan 28, 2020 15:51
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Red Oktober posted:That would be amazing but.... it’s not the good place for Kamilah, so I can’t see how it can happen. I don't think the party is the entire good place, it is just the welcome. I imagine after the initial meet and greet, everyone can go off and do whatever they like.
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Jan 28, 2020 15:54
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Ishamael posted:I don't think the party is the entire good place, it is just the welcome. I imagine after the initial meet and greet, everyone can go off and do whatever they like. Yup. The Good Place has neighborhoods, just like season 1. It's mentioned several times.
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Jan 28, 2020 16:10
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VideoGames posted:I really liked the idea that infinite pleasure means eventually your brain turns to mush as it is one of the biggest reasons I never understood religion when I was at school. I thought that infinite pleasure in heaven/infinite pain in hell would eventually get boring if I was still the human mind I was down here. All of the major world religions have well-established doctrines about the afterlife not being the same as life on earth. Christians have the idea that we are given "heavenly bodies" which are not the same as our earthly bodies. Some schools of Buddhism have the idea that in nirvana, our consciousness actually ceases to be our own and melds/blends with everything else there. Many religions also don't strictly think you get one shot and you're done. The Dharmic religions all believe in some form of rebirth, so you're forced to live lives forever until you get it right. There's also the idea of purgatory, which in the Catholic version is a place where people who aren't quite able to get into heaven go through some sort of cleansing process. Interestingly, the new system in the Bad Place kind of combines these two ideas, of perpetual trial and a process of cleansing.
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Jan 28, 2020 17:45
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Sub Rosa posted:But not if there is an infinite number of possible foods/tv shows/experiences that could exist in a platonically perfect form. Platonic perfection is incompatible with infinite variation. The idea is that there is one perfect pot, one perfect pizza, and all the pots and pizzas on Earth are a poor attempt by humans to copy perfection. As such, Plato expects that once a human experiences true perfection, they wouldn't ever want or need to go back to the infinite supply of imperfect copies. In The Good Place the afterlife is clearly imperfect, so we can safely set Plato's idealism aside.
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Jan 28, 2020 18:02
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