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GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



Ego-bot posted:

So when the British woman tried to kill her Russian husband the first time on the catamaran, what the hell was that? She cut the rope, he falls 3 feet into the water which is supposed to kill him. Did I miss something there?

Those things go fast, that the equivalent of throwing someone out of a car.

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RCarr
Dec 24, 2007



Yea and he was unconscious, floating face down. He absolutely would have died.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Jet%C3%A9e if you haven't seen it btw

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 12 days!



I can heartily recommend this.

Tent is a confused hybrid of a yarn that perhaps Nolan will recut into a cohesive movie one day but I'm not holding my breath. Unlike every other Nolan movie I won't be giving this one a second viewing because I'm simply disinterested in the "puzzle box" that's presented to me. I'm saying this as a diehard David Lynch fan.

I liken the whole experience to being seated in a fine restaurant. You order an expensive dish, there's nice music and ambiance, but regardless of your order what comes out is a stale Mcdouble.

You argue with the chef this isn't what's expected, but you find in horror the chef is indignant at your complaints he actually insists that you not only pay full price for this betrayal- but you also apologize and promise to return!

The entire experience is a frustrating, degrading waste of time- but if it leads the audience to discovering the gem of La Jette for the first time, then maybe, just maybe, there was some benefit to this whole poo poo show.

TheOmegaWalrus fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jan 18, 2021

Anne Frank Funk
Nov 4, 2008



What is la jette in this analogy, mcrib?

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Anne Frank Funk posted:

What is la jette in this analogy, mcrib?

Nah that's 12 monkeys

La Jette is a royale with cheese

gregday
May 23, 2003


A guy made some Youtube videos to explain some of the more confusing parts of the movie. I found the car chase video particularly helpful understanding what happened to Kat and the 241.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItL_kEXMtXM

RCarr
Dec 24, 2007



I’m pretty sure no one involved in making the movie knows what was supposed to be happening in that scene or most of the movie for that matter.

sethsez
Jul 13, 2006

He's soooo dreamy...



Zaphod42 posted:

(of course everybody is complaining that it was too confusing )
It's not necessarily that it's too confusing. In broad strokes, it's an action flick where a super-top-secret agent has to stop a scary Russian from using a doomsday device. The issue a lot of people have is the convolutions involved in telling that incredibly basic story. Figuring out the specifics doesn't lead to a greater understanding of character motivations, any questions of morality, or even any fun revelations in how cause and effect have been tweaked in interesting ways. Instead it mostly just leads to "oh, I guess that's how the car got there" and "okay I think I understand the big threat now." It feels like once you've figured out all the little bits that don't make immediate sense, you're just left with Timeline Has Fallen.

quote:

To me this was Primer, but with a big budget.
Part of what makes Primer so compelling is that the audience losing track of timelines and who's done what when is a perfect match for the main characters losing control of an invention they never fully understood, especially as things go on and the characters, freed from the consequences of instinctively understandable cause-and-effect, drop their guard and show their true colors. Primer wouldn't work as well thematically or narratively if the timeline were simpler. Tenet, by comparison, gains an unnecessarily confusing Time Nuke and a visual gimmick that harms as many action sequences as it spices up.

I've seen plenty of movies far more confusing than Tenet, but I struggle to think of any with a worse convolution : reward ratio.

sethsez fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Feb 19, 2021

gregday
May 23, 2003


Doesn’t the existence of an inverted person imply that at some point they would have to revert (“correct”) again? If we’re seeing them, they are on their way back to the turnstile that they, from their POV merged from. But from our POV, where would they have come from? If not for the turnstile that they (from their POV) would go into to revert.

I guess the “where did they come from?” Question is the same as the bullet holes and the pre-cracked side mirror.

salt shakeup
Jun 27, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


They should invert my dick into my rear end.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


sethsez posted:

It's not necessarily that it's too confusing. In broad strokes, it's an action flick where a super-top-secret agent has to stop a scary Russian from using a doomsday device. The issue a lot of people have is the convolutions involved in telling that incredibly basic story. Figuring out the specifics doesn't lead to a greater understanding of character motivations, any questions of morality, or even any fun revelations in how cause and effect have been tweaked in interesting ways. Instead it mostly just leads to "oh, I guess that's how the car got there" and "okay I think I understand the big threat now." It feels like once you've figured out all the little bits that don't make immediate sense, you're just left with Timeline Has Fallen.

Part of what makes Primer so compelling is that the audience losing track of timelines and who's done what when is a perfect match for the main characters losing control of an invention they never fully understood, especially as things go on and the characters, freed from the consequences of instinctively understandable cause-and-effect, drop their guard and show their true colors. Primer wouldn't work as well thematically or narratively if the timeline were simpler. Tenet, by comparison, gains an unnecessarily confusing Time Nuke and a visual gimmick that harms as many action sequences as it spices up.

I've seen plenty of movies far more confusing than Tenet, but I struggle to think of any with a worse convolution : reward ratio.

I mean, yeah, most stories are heavily character driven; but not all need to be. Neil's character does have good development and a good arc along with the protagonist becoming himself, but I don't think every single story has to be the hero's journey, you know? Personally I think the concept itself is neato in the extreme and gets me excited and thinking in ways few movies do, and that in itself is perfectly satisfying for a story.

I love Primer, but it also hand-waives a ton and basically just throws a few things in the air and hopes you come up with some clever conclusions. Primer Tenet is more of an action movie but it also feels more concrete and thought-through in its sci-fi concepts.

But I'm not saying the movie IS confusing; I said people complained it was. And they are. Look at twitter. I've seen many people saying exactly that verbatim, so you can't tell me they haven't said that.

gregday posted:

Doesn’t the existence of an inverted person imply that at some point they would have to revert (“correct”) again? If we’re seeing them, they are on their way back to the turnstile that they, from their POV merged from. But from our POV, where would they have come from? If not for the turnstile that they (from their POV) would go into to revert.

I guess the “where did they come from?” Question is the same as the bullet holes and the pre-cracked side mirror.

Well, someone born in the future could invert in the future and exist in the now as an inverted person. But eventually they should revert, yeah.

But this gets into the whole "can you cause a time paradox?" question, which Neil answers as basically "you probably can't but lets not find out in case it unmakes existence instead"

The bullet holes I can jive with but WHERE ARE THE BULLET CASINGS? There should be casings on the floor that load themselves into the gun as you shoot, but I guess Christopher Nolan isn't a gun buff.

Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Feb 23, 2021

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



gregday posted:

A guy made some Youtube videos to explain some of the more confusing parts of the movie. I found the car chase video particularly helpful understanding what happened to Kat and the 241.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItL_kEXMtXM

I saw this video a while back and it just left me more confused.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




Zaphod42 posted:

I love Primer, but it also hand-waives a ton and basically just throws a few things in the air and hopes you come up with some clever conclusions. Primer is more of an action movie but it also feels more concrete and thought-through in its sci-fi concepts..

Are you sure you’re thinking of primer, because it’s uh...not an action movie at all

RBX
Jan 2, 2011



Maybe he's thinking Edge Of Tomorrow.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


DeimosRising posted:

Are you sure you’re thinking of primer, because it’s uh...not an action movie at all

Brain fart, the second time I said Primer I meant to say Tenet.

Tenet is more of an action movie compared to Primer. Primer is more of a thinking sci-fi drama.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019






DeimosRising posted:

Are you sure you’re thinking of primer, because it’s uh...not an action movie at all

Primer is an incredible musical / comedy

gregday
May 23, 2003


I wonder if Priya was still looking down over the balcony edge when JDW released his bungee cord at the bottom of the jump off and got snapped in the face.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Sorry to raise the thread, but I gotta point this out:

RCarr posted:

I’m pretty sure no one involved in making the movie knows what was supposed to be happening in that scene or most of the movie for that matter.

Right before the guy fights himself, they show a close-up of the bullet holes. The glass is still cracking, and little shards are falling down. The window is normal.

When he picks up the gun, the window is suddenly ‘inverted’: the cracks shrink, the shards fall up, and the holes eventually vanish.

This means that the glass spontaneously destroyed itself before the characters entered the room, in order to maintain continuity with the characters’ later decision to ‘heal’ the glass.

Tenet’s characters therefore have the ability to transmute concrete into bullets through sheer concentration. Although they never take advantage of this, it’s an ‘infinite ammo’ cheat. They are James-Bond-themed wizards.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


So just watched the movie. Tiny detail I'm sure isn't that important. During the opera house sequence one of the fragments is captured by Sator but its also simultaneously at Siberia where the other op is happening. I guess they just invert it and take it there?

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Shaocaholica posted:

So just watched the movie. Tiny detail I'm sure isn't that important. During the opera house sequence one of the fragments is captured by Sator but its also simultaneously at Siberia where the other op is happening. I guess they just invert it and take it there?

Correct. Enough inversions and you can literally be in 15 places at once.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Ok and the Indian lady what's her deal? I don't recall them explaining why/how she knows the things she knows or her motivations. Also the way they meet seems so coincidental. Some bullets at the lab were made with metals that probably come from a region of India therefore this specific arms dealer must be a key character in this convoluted time travel plot? That gets settled with no exposition in like 2 cuts.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019






Shaocaholica posted:

Ok and the Indian lady what's her deal? I don't recall them explaining why/how she knows the things she knows or her motivations. Also the way they meet seems so coincidental. Some bullets at the lab were made with metals that probably come from a region of India therefore this specific arms dealer must be a key character in this convoluted time travel plot? That gets settled with no exposition in like 2 cuts.

She's one of the most notorious arms dealers in the world who deals with exotic poo poo. Mission: Impossible literally did this same thing.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


I think I'll need to rewatch some parts. I don't get how a notorious arms dealer has anything to do with time travel McMuffins. Does she have some relationship with Sator because he's also an arms dealer(?). Is she/has she always been part of Tenet?

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019






Shaocaholica posted:

I think I'll need to rewatch some parts. I don't get how a notorious arms dealer has anything to do with time travel McMuffins. Does she have some relationship with Sator because he's also an arms dealer(?). Is she/has she always been part of Tenet?

She would be the person to go to in order to find inverted munitions. What is there to explain beyond that?

Why is she involved with person X or Y? Because she's got the connect. Jesus.

mod saas
May 4, 2004
The Burger King Bows To Ugoff


Grimey Drawer

Shaocaholica posted:

I think I'll need to rewatch some parts. I don't get how a notorious arms dealer has anything to do with time travel McMuffins. Does she have some relationship with Sator because he's also an arms dealer(?). Is she/has she always been part of Tenet?

Specifically, the inverted munitions had a metallurgical composition that indicated she was the supplier

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Shaocaholica posted:

Ok and the Indian lady what's her deal? I don't recall them explaining why/how she knows the things she knows or her motivations. Also the way they meet seems so coincidental. Some bullets at the lab were made with metals that probably come from a region of India therefore this specific arms dealer must be a key character in this convoluted time travel plot? That gets settled with no exposition in like 2 cuts.

The film’s gimmick, combined with unreliable expository dialogue, means it is quite impossible to discern the characters’ motivations - so you can basically imagine whatever you’d like.

In this specific case, Priya is said to have been an agent of Tenet from the beginning.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Apr 30, 2021

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Shaocaholica posted:

Ok and the Indian lady what's her deal? I don't recall them explaining why/how she knows the things she knows or her motivations. Also the way they meet seems so coincidental. Some bullets at the lab were made with metals that probably come from a region of India therefore this specific arms dealer must be a key character in this convoluted time travel plot? That gets settled with no exposition in like 2 cuts.

The Indian Lady is hired by the Protagonist when he's inverted in the future, so its like she's a proxy so the Protagonist can tell his past self what to do.

Re-watching the film, I think its almost an intentional red-herring. They go to the arms dealer lady because that's where the bullets come from. But that doesn't really matter in the end. What matters is that they went to her, so then later on he knows he'll go to her, so then he goes back in time and talks to her before he meets her for the first time, and tells her what to do. But because of the way time is consistent, that means the first time he meets her she was already working for him...

Same with Neil.

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE






Illegal Hen

My random playlist spit out this classic & I've been listening to the album a lot lately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE5zXLOyEOQ

Going with Ludwig Göransson was a bold choice.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Zaphod42 posted:

The Indian Lady is hired by the Protagonist when he's inverted in the future, so its like she's a proxy so the Protagonist can tell his past self what to do.

Re-watching the film, I think its almost an intentional red-herring. They go to the arms dealer lady because that's where the bullets come from. But that doesn't really matter in the end. What matters is that they went to her, so then later on he knows he'll go to her, so then he goes back in time and talks to her before he meets her for the first time, and tells her what to do. But because of the way time is consistent, that means the first time he meets her she was already working for him...

Same with Neil.

Right; that's basically what's explained. However, the reveal that she's an agent of Tenet implies that she has access to a time machine and information from the future, plus the secondary reveal that she's either a "traitor" to Tenet (by attempting to kill Kat against the current leader's past orders) or its truest adherent (by attempting to 'preserve the timeline' according to the past leader's current orders) means all bets are off as to what her actual deal is.

This is where we get to the actual point of the movie: the entire conflict between the 'closed loopers' and the 'alternate universers' is a bunch of chaff, as the only thing that matters is the Protagonist's gradual realization that he controls the universe with magic and can therefore do whatever he wants. Does saving Kat from Priya change the future-past, or not? Is all that stuff about an algorithm that reverses the planet's entropy true, or a lie that he told himself in order to ensure that climate change happens? Nobody ultimately gives a poo poo.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019






Android Apocalypse posted:

My random playlist spit out this classic & I've been listening to the album a lot lately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE5zXLOyEOQ

Going with Ludwig Göransson was a bold choice.

Yea, Posterity is a banger. Same with the Concert Hall track (the first one) and Trucks in Place.

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Grandpa Palpatine posted:

Yea, Posterity is a banger. Same with the Concert Hall track (the first one) and Trucks in Place.

It is weird that this track is called "Rainy Night in Tallinn" when the scene in set in Kyiv, and there is the later scene set in Tallinn where the music doesn't appear.

gregday
May 23, 2003


Chairman Capone posted:

It is weird that this track is called "Rainy Night in Tallinn" when the scene in set in Kyiv, and there is the later scene set in Tallinn where the music doesn't appear.

It’s named after a phone call during filming where Nolan called Ludwig and said it’s a rainy night in Tallinn. He liked the way that phrase sounded when it came time to name the tracks.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


When you fire a handgun, the recoil is what pushes the slide back and ejects the casing. The recoil is generated by the explosion of the gunpowder inside the casing.

The film would tell us that, "from the gun's perspective", the gun is actually catching the bullet that's launched from the wall. But, in order for that to happen, the gun must first 'see' a spontaneous implosion of the gas inside the cartridge. And, before that, the gun must 'see' the slide spontaneously pull back to accept the cartridge leaping into it (which could only happen if it 'sees' the spring spontaneously contract, etc.). The smoke condenses into gunpowder, the trigger pushes Protag's finger forwards, and he ultimately "undecides" to release the trigger and put the gun down. A good chunk of the universe is inverting 'around' the bullet.

So, there are two conclusions here:

1) There is no clear line between inverted and uninverted objects, and the entire concept of 'being' inverted could be seen as an illusion produced by time distortion. If you're inverted and I kick you in the balls, your body will partially uninvert to match my kick.

2) There are two points where the protagonist makes the decision to fire the gun: he makes one decision before he "pulls the trigger" on the gun, and makes a second inverted decision after he unpulls the trigger on the gun (possibly around the point where the technician teaches him how to 'instinctively' unintend things). These two decisions are separated in time, but could be said to occur simultaneously.

This is where the film starts to fall apart, because the decision to "pick up the gun" is arguably the technician's, as she is actually making an inverse decision to trick him into putting the gun down - but she also retains the ability to speak forwards. So basically anything in the movie could be - and probably is - partly inverted and uninverted simultaneously..

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Should have sent an inverted mega nuke back to when apes picked up tools.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Yeah its weird with people objects with opposite states interact with each other.

Also internet are saying the opera terries were inverted pincer team but you see them walking and shooting and throwing things forwards.

gregday
May 23, 2003


Shaocaholica posted:

Yeah its weird with people objects with opposite states interact with each other.

Also internet are saying the opera terries were inverted pincer team but you see them walking and shooting and throwing things forwards.

Just based on reading r/tenet, there are a shocking number of people who wildly get wrong the most basic facts about what is happening in this movie. Whether you pin that on Nolan is up to you, but I’ve seen so many explainers that are just incorrect.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Shaocaholica posted:

Yeah its weird with people objects with opposite states interact with each other.

You can reconcile it, but it simply breaks the movie.

If catching an “inverted” bullet in a “normal” gun causes the gun (and everything causally related to it) to also invert, then - taking things to a logical conclusion - anyone with an awareness of inversion can invert just about anything they want by merely “thinking backwardsly”.

gregday
May 23, 2003


I still saw it as prolonged exposure/contact with an inverted item causes things around to be poisoned and 'catch' the inversion. A normal gun will operate backwards to catch an inverted bullet. A normal wall will 'heal up' the hole left by an inverted bullet exiting it. A person, wounded by an inverted bullet passing through, will be affected by the radiation, but there's not enough contact time to cause the person's wound to 'heal up' the way the wall does.

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Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Wait wait wait what if you're inverted and you need to peepee or poopoo?

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