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Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006


It cant make sense because, to (probably clumsily) paraphrase our understanding of the issues, time symmetry is broken in non-quantum physical physical processes, likely by gravity.

This is a problem that represents perhaps the fundamental breakdown of our understanding of the universe, so some day may be possible to fully explain why Tenent is bullshit. Actually someone who actually knows their poo poo could probably use general relativity to explain it (since time travel should be nominally be obeying this ((lol))).

But roughly, inverted physical relationships should probably just result in short lived bizzare physical behaviour, but the bullet you dropped stays dropped now, and both parties probably agree that you dropped it. Also being inverted would likely be a quick but nightmarish death. But a simple inverted machine could drop a bullet.

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gregday
May 23, 2003


Just before the Oslo fight scene (the first time we see it), you can see the cracks in the glass expanding. I took this to mean that right before it was inevitable the fight would happen, the bullet holes spontaneously appear so that they could be un shot.

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


Pulcinella posted:

It gets even weirder and pure magic when the two states interact. Actually I guess it’s less weird because it’s the only way it makes sense. Why would anyone install a glass window with what looks like bullet holes? Why aren’t people weirded out about bodies spontaneously in-decomposing, lying on the ground for weeks at a time, before a bullet flies out of their head?
Seems it would have been better to have a story about backwards-time people interacting with forwards-time people in an episode of TNG than a James Bond action thriller. Any problems can vanish in a flash of technobabble before the Enterprise flies off for its next adventure.

Ruffian Price
Sep 17, 2016



SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Concluding that it's just flawed is a bit too easy of an 'out', though. The actual trick is to understand what is going on.
lol this movie tries to do a whole explainer on inverted thermodynamics and then just plays explosions backwards

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


What was the point of the technicians exposition anyway? It’s never used in plot again. If Nolan wanted to introduce her as a potentially the future scientist he could have done it a much better way.

Also what’s with the thick rear end green gloves at the lab? That’s a mechanic we never see again.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Isn't it just they're in a lab so they shouldn't hold the material with their bare hands.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Ruffian Price posted:

lol this movie tries to do a whole explainer on inverted thermodynamics and then just plays explosions backwards

And the backwards explosions do a far better job of illustrating things.

When I write about “what’s actually going on”, I don’t mean the bullshit exposition. I’m talking about more basic stuff like them intercutting normal POVs with inverted POVs that nonetheless play out normally, which makes it not only impossible to show multiple perspectives, but also to show perspectives at all.

Like, basically, any time you see anything ‘inverted’ onscreen, that’s effectively a glimpse at an alternate backwards universe. There also may be multiple alternate universes in play, and we’re often cycling through these universes in the span of a couple seconds. It results in total gibberish.

Shaocaholica posted:

Also what’s with the thick rear end green gloves at the lab? That’s a mechanic we never see again.

According to the film, an inverted object will gradually lose its invertedness as it comes into contact with normal hands, normal oxygen, etc. The gloves would presumably hamper that somehow, and allow them to preserve the specimens. Outside the lab, nobody seems to care.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:34 on May 2, 2021

pospysyl
Nov 10, 2012

SO EMBARRASSING



Ruffian Price posted:

lol this movie tries to do a whole explainer on inverted thermodynamics and then just plays explosions backwards

"Fire freezes instead of burns" is underrated as a completely bonkers premise.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


pospysyl posted:

"Fire freezes instead of burns" is underrated as a completely bonkers premise.

This is where the actual techniques used (e.g. the reverse photography) actually work against the premise; if an inverted flamethrower is functionally a freeze-ray that sucks heat out of things, then an inverted bullet unstriking a normal wall should just suck energy out of the wall, turning it into inverse kinetic energy.

To an outside observer, it would probably appear as if absolutely nothing has happened to the wall, while the bullet flies up from the floor and bounces off of it, into the gun.

All the bullshit exposition in the film is ultimately there to explain the use of reverse photography, which means the movie is actually about the experience of watching a movie backwards, rewinding, etc. - and disguising the resulting continuity errors.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Shaocaholica posted:

What was the point of the technicians exposition anyway? It’s never used in plot again. If Nolan wanted to introduce her as a potentially the future scientist he could have done it a much better way.

Also what’s with the thick rear end green gloves at the lab? That’s a mechanic we never see again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jp4aKMK57w

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Legit LOL that Twin Peaks s3 makes a ton more sense than TENET.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


What’s telling is that nobody gives poo poo about the actual story of the film, which is literally just an average spy thriller about radioactive bullets - where several of the characters are clones for some reason, and they all periodically stop to review videotapes.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




The motive of the future people is great but it should've been more than a throwaway line.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


What was the future motive? Undo climate change? How again?

Jon Irenicus
Apr 23, 2008


YO ASSHOLE



Shaocaholica posted:

What was the future motive? Undo climate change? How again?

I took it as revenge on us for polluting and destroying the world first and foremost (they don't give a poo poo about the grandfather paradox if it means destroying us) but if the gamble works then they get to experience the wonders of the the earth in the past then so be it

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Groovelord Neato posted:

The motive of the future people is great but it should've been more than a throwaway line.

The most interesting stuff in the movie is unfortunately relegated to dialogue.

For example, the algorithm’s components are said to have been “hidden in the past”, but that means they were inverted. There’s no indication that they were ever un-inverted/copied (the exposition even tells us they cannot be copied).

If we’re to believe this exposition, then the Oppenheimer scientist first constructed the object by dismantling it backwardsly. The journey of the object was then backwards in time, through the events of the film, and into a Russian storage facility - where, prior to 2008, it disappeared from the historical record and seemingly just popped out of existence - maybe some billions of years ago.

I call this “The Big Bang Theory”.

In any case, Tenet’s actual mission is to ensure that the object is successfully dismantled by Oppenheimer, instead of paradoxically skipping its (un)creation and becoming eternal.

But, of course, the “winds of entropy” poo poo complicates this.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 13:56 on May 3, 2021

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





I like that fan theory

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Of course, it could be that - by breaking up the algorithm - the protagonists are actually doing the opposite and preventing the object from reaching the scientist, generating the paradox I just mentioned.

I assume that a lot of this was being saved for a sequel. Like, the Goya was obviously "forged" in a turnstile, which is why Kat sincerely authenticated it.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 14:07 on May 3, 2021

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

What’s telling is that nobody gives poo poo about the actual story of the film, which is literally just an average spy thriller about radioactive bullets - where several of the characters are clones for some reason, and they all periodically stop to review videotapes.

The movie doesn't even bother to name the main character. It doesn't particularly care about the story either.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019






Time to unsubscribe now that SMG has shown up...

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Grandpa Palpatine posted:

Time to unsubscribe now that SMG has shown up...

Loudly announcing to a bunch of strangers that you're taking your ball and going home is, for lack of a better word, pathetic. Get a brain callus and post through it you loving baby.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



Do a temporal pincer on SMG.

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





Grandpa Palpatine posted:

Time to unsubscribe now that SMG has shown up...

What happens happened.

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





Am I missing some sort of in joke here or history I'm missing, or did you come in here out of nowhere just to say you were leaving because of your posting enemy.

Amazing

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


I am the ultimate killing machine.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

Am I missing some sort of in joke here or history I'm missing, or did you come in here out of nowhere just to say you were leaving because of your posting enemy.

Amazing

This isn’t even the first time grandpa palpatine has run themselves out of a thread because they might see a Forbidden Post of Bad Thoughts. The internet is a hard place for some people

Groovelord Neato posted:

The motive of the future people is great but it should've been more than a throwaway line.

What do you like about it, seems real stupid to me

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





I dunno I didn’t feel like I needed to know or that it would be coherent. Humans have engaged in stupid arms races, wars, and climate destruction without any real rationale other than a pileup of complex power plays and prisoners dilemmas and it just became a race to plunder the past or something.

I think the story and motivations of the characters is complicated enough that it would have worked better in a book but I appreciate a movie that doesn’t just spoon feed the audience since it’s so hard to do exposition right. I just really like this Philip K Dick esque scifi where it’s “everything the same but one major thing is different” and how crazy the implications of that get. I just really really liked this movie which I can’t say I’ve said in a couple years.

SMEGMA_MAIL fucked around with this message at 21:22 on May 3, 2021

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019






SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

Am I missing some sort of in joke here or history I'm missing, or did you come in here out of nowhere just to say you were leaving because of your posting enemy.

Amazing

He quite literally makes every film thread unbearable, and you can't ignore him because for some drat reason everyone replies to his insanity.

For Christ sake he argued the Empire is actually communist in the SW threads

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




DeimosRising posted:

What do you like about it, seems real stupid to me

It's the only motive that could possibly make sense...

I wouldn't have called it great if it was "real stupid" but I do think it's real stupid they didn't go hey they kinda have a point maybe if we do something about it now they won't want revenge.

Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 22:02 on May 3, 2021

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Groovelord Neato posted:

The motive of the future people is great but it should've been more than a throwaway line.

DeimosRising posted:

What do you like about it, seems real stupid to me

I do like the idea of there being a faction that doesn't even exist yet but exists in the future which is your opponent, and you don't really know much about them as a result but you still have to fight them.

Fear of the unknown and all that, gives me like Three-Body Problem vibes. Some cool sci-fi concepts there.

Like I mentioned before, its like a less dumb version of Roko's Basilisk.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




Groovelord Neato posted:

It's the only motive that could possibly make sense...

I wouldn't have called it great if it was "real stupid" but I do think it's real stupid they didn't go hey they kinda have a point maybe if we do something about it now they won't want revenge.

Seems dumb to me because if you have a time machine or time magic or w/e and you believe it to even be possible to change the past then I feel like you could probably come up with a better plan than get revenge but the movie is only very barely about that because it’s pretty hard to tell what anyone’s trying to do really

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Ultimately its a movie about The Protagonist and a time spiral that collapses in on itself and has him deleting himself from history to prevent things from exploding the world.

A story about using a time machine to try to butterfly effect the world to prevent a world-ending catastrophe is just a completely different story.

But yeah as with a lot of things if you think about the future people's motivations too much it doesn't seem to add up.

The best way to resolve it is to say that like how The Protagonist and Neil are total Time Cultists, the people of the future are also Time Cultists but its a fatalistic cult.

gregday
May 23, 2003


https://twitter.com/buffetbreaker/status/1389059107542474752

Lampsacus
Oct 21, 2008



Zaphod42 posted:

I do like the idea of there being a faction that doesn't even exist yet but exists in the future which is your opponent, and you don't really know much about them as a result but you still have to fight them.

Fear of the unknown and all that, gives me like Three-Body Problem vibes. Some cool sci-fi concepts there.

Like I mentioned before, its like a less dumb version of Roko's Basilisk.
Yeah, when I think of this film, I can't help but feel it would have made a great novella. Something long enough to tell the story but just short enough as not to get up its own rear end with exposition. I mean, I loved the 3BP and hooned through series during lockdown but my goodness that book loved walls of texts like some golden age sci-fi or old text adventure. The coolest element in Tenet was the unknown future faction loving with causity in order to revengekill current civ because we are not handling climate change at all. That's a good bit.

gregday
May 23, 2003


Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE






Illegal Hen


Considering how Nolan uses women in his stories… I'll allow it (provided the relationship stays the same & never gets romantic).

Ramrod Hotshot
May 30, 2003



I just watched Tenet. It's a distillation of everything bad about Christopher Nolan movies. I got a headache watching it

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Ramrod Hotshot posted:

I just watched Tenet. It's a distillation of everything bad about Christopher Nolan movies. I got a headache watching it

Ok now watch it again but backwards it should make the headache go away.

sethsez
Jul 13, 2006

He's soooo dreamy...



The problem with Tenet is that it courts a nitpicky, analytical viewing style just to be able to follow it, but then it doesn't hold up to that if the viewer takes it even a bit further than Nolan intended. You're supposed to be a careful and attentive viewer for very specific things while being able to handwave away others, and the film does nothing to indicate which is which. It's where the Bond comparison falls apart, because most of those are extremely good at setting viewer guidelines and then existing within that space.

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gregday
May 23, 2003


Also, even though I do enjoy picking apart the inversion mechanic, no amount of analysis gets you any closer to the characters or motivations.

Contrast that to Inception, where the nature of the nested dreams actually works to show Fischer’s broken relationship with his father and how they repair it.

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