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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Yeah only the third movie holds up for me. Theyíd figured out the cg integration by then and itís also the longest movie so everything isnít a rushed mess. Movie 1 and 2 are too short for the material. Aside from the changes mentioned by the previous poster, the flashbacks are done in this super choppy and disorienting style thatís also incomprehensible if you donít already know what theyíre depicting.

The traditional animation in the movies are absolutely excellent. I wish it was all traditional animation but then it wouldíve taken 7 years per film to make or something crazy.

All that said the 1997 series is still the most consistent adaption. They made smart choices to conserve the budget and no cg means it will continue to hold up indefinitely.

Like look at how classy this trailer is. No animation at all aside from the blood and it already conveys as much as any sakugafest would about the series tone: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7TuqwOOgyoo&feature=youtu.be

Ccs fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Apr 1, 2021

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lezard_valeth
Mar 14, 2016


The Casca and Guts dancing scene would have worked if they hadn't cut a lot of important establishing moments (like the bonfire of dreams or Gut's rescue of Casca being drastically shortened) and if it didn't come at the expense of the Queen's conspiracy and death (which helps understand Griffith's rashness with Charlotte since he is used to getting away with things). I felt that it did a good job at portraying Casca's frustration and conflicting feelings towards both Guts and Griffith at that point in the story.

Also even if a bit uncharacteristic, Guts deserves more happy moments

lezard_valeth fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Apr 1, 2021

Paperback Writer
May 1, 2006



well all that matters for me is the movies and the 2016 seasons were enough to make me a big fan and want to read my first manga. Before Covid and unemployment hit I didnít even watch anime.

thanks Ccs for the Vinland Saga recommendation, it looks like something Iíd like. Iím still an anime newb and have fallen in love with basic stuff I think so far(Berserk, AoT, Death Note, JoJo), so I appreciate it.

Josuke Higashikata
Mar 7, 2013




David D. Davidson posted:

Like no joke it ranks up there with Lord of the Rings or A song of Ice and Fire.

The books, just so we're clear.

damning with faint praise with that asoiaf mention

(i think Lotr is a chore to read most of the time but i respect how well written it is)

Spermando
Jun 13, 2009


I watched a lot of this stuff out of order. Has the part where Zodd loses his horn ever been animated?

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon




Paperback Writer posted:

well all that matters for me is the movies and the 2016 seasons were enough to make me a big fan and want to read my first manga. Before Covid and unemployment hit I didnít even watch anime.

thanks Ccs for the Vinland Saga recommendation, it looks like something Iíd like. Iím still an anime newb and have fallen in love with basic stuff I think so far(Berserk, AoT, Death Note, JoJo), so I appreciate it.

Berserk Jojo and vinland Saga are genuinely top tier.

Paperback Writer
May 1, 2006



Southpaugh posted:

Berserk Jojo and vinland Saga are genuinely top tier.
I probably shouldnít have used ďbasicĒ, I just meant popular.

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...


Grimey Drawer

I think the kids call it "based", not "basic"

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Spermando posted:

I watched a lot of this stuff out of order. Has the part where Zodd loses his horn ever been animated?

The 2017 season. That pitiful thing... that I watched all of. If you can choose to call it animated.

Ironically thereís one really well animated segment in the 2017 season, at the very very end. With credits playing over and obscuring half of it . Absolutely cursed production.

Southpaugh posted:

Berserk Jojo and vinland Saga are genuinely top tier.

And letís not forget off-brand Berserk: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/BlasterKnuckle

GorfZaplen
Jan 20, 2012



Shizuya Wazarai's other manga, Kento Ankokuden Cestvs is legitimately good and if you enjoy Berserk you'll probably enjoy that too. They ran in the same magazine at the same time. It also has some eye-raising sex stuff early on but it goes away entirely eventually at roughly the same time it faded from Berserk to the point that I wonder if some of that stuff wasn't pushed by some editor. The sequel, Kendo Shitouden Cestvs is one of my favorite seinen martial arts manga going right now. The art isn't as detailed as Berserk's but I think the author has a better grasp of some fundamentals over Miura, fight scenes are very legible and clear which even Miura struggles with!

Spermando
Jun 13, 2009


Ccs posted:

The 2017 season. That pitiful thing... that I watched all of. If you can choose to call it animated.

Ironically thereís one really well animated segment in the 2017 season, at the very very end. With credits playing over and obscuring half of it . Absolutely cursed production.


And letís not forget off-brand Berserk: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/BlasterKnuckle

I just rewatched the first episode of the 2017 season and he's already down one horn in the prologue.

lezard_valeth
Mar 14, 2016


It should have happened in the 2016 one. I dunno, I didn't watch it. But iirc Zodd loses his horn while fighting dream Griffith before he is reborn.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Oh yeah I guess it happens in the first season of that show. I remember it, I think. Who knows, maybe I dreamed it, my dreams would probably have better animation than Berserk 2016/2017.

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

I thought it happened when Zodd was trying to keep Skull Knight out of the eclipse?

temple
Jul 29, 2006



No, it was when griffith was reborn.

Kart Barfunkel
Nov 10, 2009




Iím in the middle of volume 10 and I love Guts and Caskaís relationship. I know this wonít end well and it sucks. I want these broken people to be happy .

Lucasar
Jan 25, 2005

I'm that kid that made those cool tinfoil dinosaurs.




Kart Barfunkel posted:

Iím in the middle of volume 10 and I love Guts and Caskaís relationship. I know this wonít end well and it sucks. I want these broken people to be happy .

Pre-emptive condolences, man.

lezard_valeth
Mar 14, 2016


Kart Barfunkel posted:

Iím in the middle of volume 10 and I love Guts and Caskaís relationship. I know this wonít end well and it sucks. I want these broken people to be happy .

You are on the same boat as everyone else. Spoilers: we are not making port anytime soon

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


Super Rad posted:

I thought it happened when Zodd was trying to keep Skull Knight out of the eclipse?

Nah def from revived dream griffith, its what convinces him he should follow his strength since he instantly realizes he doesn't think he has a chance against him, and all Zodd wants is good fights. Can't have em if you're dead.

Bisse
Jun 26, 2005

*gets hit by truck*


Re-read this manga and uh, it never really struck me this strongly before for some reason (I think because the 90's anime handles it better and I never really read the manga bits before the Eclipse) but boy does Casca get treated super problematically???

She is naked for basically no reason during the Wyald fight, the poo poo during the Eclipse is super central to the story but also super bad from a feminist point of view (Woman gets naked (again) and raped by Male A (who recently tried and failed to do that but it was excused including by the woman by "How can I be so selfish, I should have thought about him more") just to get revenge on Male B). And then handles the horrible events of the eclipse by becoming a braindead toddler while the guy handles the same events by becoming a strong moody mysterious badass.

Like the rest of the manga isn't that bad about it from what I can tell, sure there is nudity but whatever, and yes there are really well-written story points made in the Eclipse where the events there basically need to happen... but everything related to Caska after and shortly before the eclipse taken as a whole is like... really problematic. Like if it was just the eclipse it would be bad but less bad, but everything as a whole seems badly bad. Modern day treatment of Caska seems to be A Lot Better, thankfully.

Is it just me?

Bisse fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Apr 8, 2021

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



There are definitely issues with that, but it was also the 90s, and issues with that kind of stuff abounded in entertainment, especially in manga. Over the years, he seems to have gradually lowered on that kind of stuff.

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

It's bad, yeah. But I do think that it's partly counterbalanced by the fact that Casca was a really awesome character pre-eclipse and that perhaps not even Miura knew at the time how much of the manga lay ahead post-eclipse. I think that having Casca go full vegetable was a way to answer the question of why Guts is forever pissed and seeking revenge at such a steep cost to himself. I'm guessing that the whole plot thread, and perhaps the manga itself was meant to wrap up much more quickly but then it kept going and going and hiatusing and yeah doing a full reread now in 2021 I have to agree that the treatment of Casca really really blows.

Badactura
Feb 14, 2019

My wish lives in the future.


Yeah the treatment of Casca (tbh most of the women characters in the narrative) is really bad and a mark against the quality of Berserk.

Like, Farnese gets kidnapped and sexually endangered gratuitously as well, and then her big return to the party moment is "well, we need you to look after Casca so we can fight all these cool monsters."

Not to mention the treatment of minor women characters in the story, like the villagers and the trolls or how the demon soldier army gets made.

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

I'm here


On the other hand, Schierke is one of the biggest badasses in the series.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


Yeah generally speaking how women are treated and handled is poor. I sort of contextualize it that actual human history of a similar social and technological era was similarly nasty to women so perhaps it's just correct world setting. However he does get to make choices about it, and still ran with that. I do think he gets better about women and their power in the story, but yeah it's rough for big stretches. I want to give the story more credit since a lot of the trauma and awful poo poo has over time produced some big redemptive & powerful moments, but they've all come way late in the story.

The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Apr 8, 2021

christmas boots
Oct 15, 2012

To these sing-alongs of siren songs
To oohs to ahhs to big applause
With all of my anger I scream and shout
America, I love you but you're freaking me out


Biscuit Hider

Heís definitely eased off the rape as time has passed, I think it was definitely a crutch at the start

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Viridiant posted:

On the other hand, Schierke is one of the biggest badasses in the series.

But he does have moments where she or that mermaid girl are naked for no real reason.

I dunno, if we consider Miura's other manga not to be spoken of in this thread, it looks bad. But, uh, whaddaya gonna do? The series has some problematic elements. i still enjoy the other elements.

Just gotta pray it isn't a Nobuhiro Watsuki situation.

PhantomOfTheCopier
Aug 13, 2008

Pikabooze!


The series is simply not sexually inert. Even in "the best arc" (disagree but shrug) Griffith sells his body for power, Guts is sold as a child, and the manga opens with a human-demon sex/murder scene. Neither is Casca's background particularly free of troubles, but presumably this permits setting up a contrast and comparison between Casca and Guts' shared experience.

The existence of the Holy See also suggests a strongly paternalistic society, so the treatment of women seems rather aligned with that. Conviction, though, throws all the heathens into the pit together, and suggests equal punishment and sexual infidelity of all the people. Apparently all the Lost Children can initiate an adult attack (I'd have to check).


Given the strong female characters (Casca is the second in command) and the weak male characters (there's lots of whining in Golden Age), the usual equating of women being weak is somewhat passed over. The connection between power corrupting and sexual abusiveness, however, remains.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


i mean the sexual assault stuff was '90s seinen editorial' as much as anything, that was just what the landscape was like at the time. every manga in the magazine had poo poo like that going on. miura at least makes it a big part of guts's backstory too so its hardly a gendered thing. and casca's chained to a writing decision made in like 1996-97, im not gonna hold it against him.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an



We haven't had weird sex stuff since the trolls, right?

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Yeah I was gonna say, correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like it's been years since rape or the threat of rape/sexual assault has been a thing in Berserk. Miura obviously still has his writing hangups but that whole angle has been dialed way back for a while now.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Funky Valentine posted:

We haven't had weird sex stuff since the trolls, right?

We didn't even get any weird sex stuff when we had tentacle monsters hanging out.

There was the stuff about how the Demon Army was born but that wasn't in the same kind of category as the other stuff. That was throw women into a pit of horrors and out pops demon babies

Nestharken
Mar 23, 2006

The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.


Berserk is a story about terrible things happening to... basically everyone. The only major character I can think of without some kind of serious trauma and/or horrible death is Roderick, so the usual arguments about fridging or whatever don't really apply. If you're upset about the depiction of sexual violence during war, I have some bad news for you about history.

Schierke, Farnese, Flora, and Luca are all well-developed, and hell, even Moth Girl and the Queen of Midland are pretty badass antagonists who both just had the misfortune of crossing one of the most dangerous humans on the planet. Slan has the most characterization and independent motivations out of the OG four Godhand members. Erica, Sonia, and Isma are all a little underdeveloped, but I suspect that they'll become more significant as the story gets into the endgame.

As for them being drawn salaciously... I mean, you just gotta expect a certain baseline from Japan.

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

I'm here


Sonia is one of my favorite characters, she's really interesting to me. This cheerful, friendly girl joins up with Satan putting on a good act, but you get the sense that the good act doesn't really matter to her and she knows exactly what she's joined up with. Maybe I'm misreading her but that's what it seems like to me.

I'm thinking I should probably re-read through the manga at some point, it's been a while.

Tiptoes
Apr 30, 2006

You are my underwater, underwater friends!

People thinking Berserk has become less sexual have somehow forgotten Casca's nightmare of a field of infinite penis-monsters that we just experienced. The main story has featured less sex and sexual violence mostly because Griffith is suppressing the worst urges of the apostles at this point and giving humans this mirage of better world in Falconia but we all know that won't last. The instant that falls apart, there is going to be a torrent of violence that will shock people.

Sexuality is just a huge part of Berserk's world and that sets it apart from something like LOTR. While Miura is extremely graphic in how it's presented, it also doesn't feel like a dishonest view of humanity. People do a lot more loving and raping (and have done throughout history) than sanitized media lets on and Miura definitely wants to include that side of humanity in his depictions. The great evils in his world are those given free reign to indulge in every terrible hedonistic whim they have while his main hero is sexually repressed due to being a childhood victim of rape. Even someone like Zodd is sexualized; his entire first encounter with Guts and Griffith occurs while he is completely nude. The only reason we don't have images of his giant erect dong seared into our memories is cause of Japan's censorship laws.

Casca's arc feels problematic because she has been mute for so long in real time but her arc is also incomplete. Now that the story has finally corrected that, I am excited to see where her character goes from here.

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!

Fun Shoe

Nestharken posted:

As for them being drawn salaciously... I mean, you just gotta expect a certain baseline from Japan.
This is something that all the people offering "complex sexuality themes across gender presented in Berserk" takes need to keep in mind. There is a bunch of gratuitous female nudity and sexualization that is there only for the sake of slaking a cishet male's thirsty gaze - and it's specifically gratuitous beyond Miura's unflinching resolve to throw the worst of the world in our faces to tell a horrifying but meaningful story. It's just gross fanservice, and while it has waxed and waned throughout the manga, I doubt it will ever completely go away.

As someone also familiar with the context of a Japanese manga with naked people in it, I'm willing to go with Nestharken's take on this, but that doesn't mean Berserk has ultimately risen above the systemic female-objectifying problems of its medium (and readership) just because it additionally and separately has some relatively evolved takes on sexuality, gender, strong female characters, etc.

temple
Jul 29, 2006



Griffith is actually good, guys.

scary ghost dog
Aug 5, 2007



aparmenideanmonad posted:

This is something that all the people offering "complex sexuality themes across gender presented in Berserk" takes need to keep in mind. There is a bunch of gratuitous female nudity and sexualization that is there only for the sake of slaking a cishet male's thirsty gaze - and it's specifically gratuitous beyond Miura's unflinching resolve to throw the worst of the world in our faces to tell a horrifying but meaningful story. It's just gross fanservice, and while it has waxed and waned throughout the manga, I doubt it will ever completely go away.

As someone also familiar with the context of a Japanese manga with naked people in it, I'm willing to go with Nestharken's take on this, but that doesn't mean Berserk has ultimately risen above the systemic female-objectifying problems of its medium (and readership) just because it additionally and separately has some relatively evolved takes on sexuality, gender, strong female characters, etc.

Tiptoes
Apr 30, 2006

You are my underwater, underwater friends!

What the series needs is more dicks to balance things out. It's clear from re-reading Berserk that Miura wishes he could draw much more full frontal male nudity but he's not allowed to.

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GorfZaplen
Jan 20, 2012



Tiptoes posted:

What the series needs is more dicks to balance things out. It's clear from re-reading Berserk that Miura wishes he could draw much more full frontal male nudity but he's not allowed to.

I support this.

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