Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Mystic Mongol
Jan 5, 2007

Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.



College Slice

LawrenceFriday posted:

<<<Some hot nonsense>>>

Aww, c'mon.

None of that, please.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Sword_of_Dusk
Sep 30, 2018

Legendary Luminary


Jesus, I keep wanting to change my answer. This moral quandary is really getting to me.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




Personally Iím gonna say spare her mostly because the game seems to have something it wants to say about the Dollís personhood and Iím curious where itís going in that direction; which is likely cut short if we push her here.

Also to be honest we donít know how heavy the doll is and pushing thus might be a trap because we canít make the Reko Doll move physically we need to talk her into it.

RedMagus
Nov 16, 2005

Male....Female...what does it matter? Power is beautiful, and I've got the power!


Grimey Drawer

spare her

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Lord_Magmar posted:

Personally I’m gonna say spare her mostly because the game seems to have something it wants to say about the Doll’s personhood and I’m curious where it’s going in that direction; which is likely cut short if we push her here.

I think that's the trap though; they go on about trusting a Doll of Reko, made by their captors, because it looks and acts relatively like her. What are the odds they have a remote override, or she has secondary programming that will backstab the group later BECAUSE they trusted the doll made by their captors?

Jefepato
Mar 11, 2009

This?! This is a glorious dance! That has been passed down! In my family for generations!


Spare her. Fake Reko is still a person in every sense that matters.

Frankly, I'm shocked that Sara of all people can actually choose to push her.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Neddy Seagoon posted:

I think that's the trap though; they go on about trusting a Doll of Reko, made by their captors, because it looks and acts relatively like her. What are the odds they have a remote override, or she has secondary programming that will backstab the group later BECAUSE they trusted the doll made by their captors?

Exactly. It's a bloody hard choice, because it's both moral dilemma and potential trap, as well as the danger to others. I'd make the decision relatively quickly in the moment, but actually having time to think on it makes it quite rough. Regardless, I think they're going to be pushing morality plays and paranoia with dolls even further. Lets hope that unlike Battlestar Galactica, this sticks the landing.

David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


Under normal circumstances, I'd push the doll. But I'm more interested in seeing where the game goes if you spare it.

Sordas Volantyr
Jan 11, 2015

Now, everybody, walk like a Jekhar.

(God, these running animations are terrible.)

https://youtu.be/iQqOD7bGt4c?t=6

(and by that I mean Push, on the grounds that I feel like they're trying to set up the route where you don't push her as being the route that leads to good endings, and it doesn't make sense to go from good endings to bad ones)

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


The track is called samurai woman because you have to kill your emotions to save lives and im pretty sure this is yakuza boss grooming.

differentiating
Mar 30, 2019



Putting in another vote for spare her.

From a purely logical standpoint, if we push/kill fake Reko, Sara's going to be screwed over in the coming main game by looking like a murderer in the eyes of the people who believe the fake Reko is essentially human. If we don't, Sara isn't directly to blame if Gin dies - fake Reko could sacrifice herself, Nao/Sara could sacrifice themselves, and Q-taro could take the bullet. Plus, imo, it's a lot more understandable why you wouldn't want to kill someone who's essentially human, so the backlash will probably be less. I don't want Gin to die either, but it's the difference between actively killing someone and passively not preventing the death of another. Plus, I agree with those who point out that Ranger's clearly wanting us to kill the fake Reko, and I'm not inclined to listen to him.

I also still think the papers Sue Miley gave Sara are super interesting, since I just caught up on recent updates, but I suppose discussion of that is a little less relevant right now.

wologar
Feb 11, 2014


differentiating posted:

I don't want Gin to die either, but it's the difference between actively killing someone and passively not preventing the death of another.

Exactly this. Spare her.

Regallion
Nov 11, 2012



wologar posted:

Exactly this. Spare her.
I'll reiterate that no it's not goddamn exactly this.
It's pointless to think about killing doll!Reko in terms of human suffering caused, because you could argue that dying from poison while completely helpless is worse than dying on the spikes knowing you saved someone, and also because as discussed, you end up arguing in circles.
It's best to measure the decisions in terms of harm caused:
If you don't push, you lose 1 (one) human life.
If you push you cause a doll to cease functioning.
It's a distinction people keep overlooking for some reason, but even if the kidnappers are unlikely to do so, the doll has an advantage of not necessarily remembering any suffering when reactivated. It doubles up when you consider that unlike a human she CAN be reactivated.

This ties into a real philosophical rabbit hole of whether the reactivated doll!Reko would be the same, especially since you could also make any number of identical dolls, at which point, you start running into a classical question of what exactly grants individuality to a person and whether such thing even exists, which we shouldn't be digging into here.

Regardless, when our choice is to lose something valuable and irreplaceable, and losing something valuable, but replaceable, there is really no reason to even hesitate.

tomanton
May 22, 2006

beam me up, tomato

Spare her, I'm metagaming again but push/not push aren't ethical or moral choices, the only way not to play the game is to back up your pacifism with suicide (ie Kai). Sara clearly won't, so it'll be interesting to see if not-Reko jumps, or Nao pushes her instead, or she herself jumps, or nothing happens. The only chance someone else might not play if we don't, so watch and wait.

Also good on the writing to make me catch on that the red text = facts right before they made it explicit.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


I like how split we are on this decision.

Push Reko [24 votes]
HerpicleOnicron5
Junpei
placid saviour
Regallion
Nick Buntline
tweet my meat
Jadecore
Akratic Method
Ignatius M. Meen
PlasticAutomaton
Onmi
LiefKatano
Fumbles
Toalpaz
WhalerWren
Eeepies
Amidiri
Insertnamehere31
Neddy Seagoon
Veriun
Chatrapati
Randalor
LawrenceFriday
Sordas Volantyr




Spare Reko [28 votes]
Sword_of_Dusk
Mraagvpine
NeoRonTheNeuron
OOrochi
Tylana
Bifauxnen
MarquiseMindfag
Goon Boots
Blaze Dragon
Mystic Mongol
value-brand cereal
TakenForGranite
idhrendur
Obscil
someone awful.
Akumu
Eumenides
Polderjoch
sleeptalker
vector_to
cardinale
Lord_Magmar
RedMagus
Jefepato
David Corbett
differentiating
wologar
tomanton


Abstain [1 vote]
PMush Perfect

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


I cannot believe that through our inaction we are dooming a small child to a painful death and possibly the death of the real reko.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Toalpaz posted:

I cannot believe that through our inaction we are dooming a small child to a painful death and possibly the death of the real reko.

But you see, the doll is indistinguishable from a human, and the bad guys are surely going to respect that as well as allowing the real Reko to live.

Lets also not forget that the tell that she was a robot was "is still lovely to Alice"

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


From a meta-game perspective, sure, I'd believe that Sara's inaction on this decision is likely to doom Gin, but I also wouldn't consider it to be a moral decision anymore if viewed that way.

If one thinks from Sara's position, not pushing is quite reasonable. She takes a massive reputation hit that won't have a guaranteed payoff.

Why is it assumed that Sara is the only one with the agency to save Gin by pushing fake Reko?
- Nao can do it or sacrifice herself.
- Fake Reko can jump in herself.
- Q-Taro can still swap places with Gin.

Why is it assumed that this must be a doll for human life trade?
- Sara/Nao/Gin/Q-Taro could be dolls too.
- There could be other solutions beyond pushing fake Reko.
- Pushing a mass into the spike pit does not guarantee that the poison gun will deactivate.
- Q-Taro might survive if he presses the button to swap.
- Gin might already be doomed to die if the 1st poison shot was a slow-acting poison.
- Real Reko may be killed if fake Reko is killed.

Gin being a doll isn't impossible. His personality is a bit more elementary then middle schooler. If he's been a doll this whole time, his personality could totally be 3 years out-of-date, just like fake Reko.

tomanton
May 22, 2006

beam me up, tomato

Oh no doubt not pushing her is 99 percent likely to be a horrible idea; pushing her is 100.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




NeoRonTheNeuron posted:

Why is it assumed that Sara is the only one with the agency to save Gin by pushing fake Reko?

because it is a videogame and this is a player choice

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


We also don't know that exceeding the weight will work. What if the number changes from "left" to "over".

Two of the girls might equal one Q-Taro, for example.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

because it is a videogame and this is a player choice

Right, and if you assume this, the moral debate evaporates, so voting either way is acceptable.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




NeoRonTheNeuron posted:

Right, and if you assume this, the moral debate evaporates, so voting either way is acceptable.

Well, if the moral debate evaporates, then the argument becomes simpler. We unlock the ability to kill doll Reko by being able to reveal that she is a doll. Sparing her is equal to failing to do that. This means sparing her is equal to the failure state of the argument section. Ergo, to spare is to fail.

tweet my meat
Oct 2, 2013

yospos


I don't think that sparing Fake Reko is going do anything but give us the same lovely branch that loving up and running out of time before the fake was outed would, assuming you can actually run out of time and not just get a game over, nor do I think that sparing her means both Rekos get to live. I'm guessing either they kill the doll because she isn't actually human and in the death games so they can do whatever to her, or they permanently replace Reko Prime with her.

I also highly doubt there's any situation where you do nothing at all and still everyone gets to live through some trickery with switching up who gets injected how many times because that would remove the moral choice and sacrifice aspect of the game which seems to be a theme for the main games. I can almost guarantee that at least one Reko is dying either way, and my gut says that there's a version of events where both Reko Prime and Gin/Q-taro die, and a version where just Fake Reko dies, possibly real Reko too, though I would strongly guess that she comes back. I also am going to assume that Sarah is the only one with any real agency to change the situation because as stated before, this is a player choice, and if they just make the same choice for you no matter what you pick then that would be pretty dumb. I'm assuming that the fact that this choice is mentioned as being important in the lp means that it's an actual choice and not two scenes with the same outcome. We could see a situation where Q-Taro musters up the courage to take Gin's place, but that doesn't actually change the situation, just swaps his role for Gin's.

A situation where both Rekos coexisted would be cool to see, but I feel like it's just not in the cards.

All of this is coming from a video game metalogic point of view based on trying to achieve the most optimal outcome which is how I usually approach sudden complex moral choices in games like this, but morally I still think it's the correct choice to push and would also be the most interesting choice for Sara's character development. (I've already voted so this isn't a vote)

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


Not pushing is tantamount to murder of gin. By choosing not to save a life we are almost committing the murder ourselves. We don't know what it is like to exist as a doll AI, we do know what it's like to be human and exist as human. There's no evidence that she isn't a sophisticated program, a machine, rather than a thinking person. There is nothing sacred about lines of code designed to mimock human behavior and elicited emotional responses, when as far as we know, there is one and only Gin.

Sword_of_Dusk
Sep 30, 2018

Legendary Luminary


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Well, if the moral debate evaporates, then the argument becomes simpler. We unlock the ability to kill doll Reko by being able to reveal that she is a doll. Sparing her is equal to failing to do that. This means sparing her is equal to the failure state of the argument section. Ergo, to spare is to fail.

There's still something unaccounted for though: everyone else's reactions. We have no idea just what everyone else will think of Sara's actions after this, and that's kind of important. And while Sara choosing to not push Faeko might cause some to hate her for possibly not saving Gin, it can't be ignored that even if she doesn't do the deed, it can still be done by another. If Sara does go through with it, it opens up the possibility that someone could use her choice as a reason to spread distrust about her goals. "Oh, Sara's willing to take a life so easily. How do you know she won't turn on you?"

I really like this decision point though. Until you happen to learn what long term repercussions come about from both choices, you can't call either one good or bad. And even when you do, it may never be that clear cut.

tweet my meat
Oct 2, 2013

yospos


The only morally acceptable choice is to savescum to figure out the optimal path.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


I can get behind that. It would be a failure to play the game if we didn't go down both routes.

Falconer
Dec 7, 2003

Did you know, I was THE MOON once!

Yes! You see, one night it turned out the moon had been STOLEN!

The animal people asked ME to take its place as I am so WISE and BRILLIANT!!


Sword_of_Dusk posted:

If Sara does go through with it, it opens up the possibility that someone could use her choice as a reason to spread distrust about her goals. "Oh, Sara's willing to take a life so easily. How do you know she won't turn on you?"

Yeah, Sou would be more than willing to point out that Sara killed Faeko under the assumption that it would save both Gin and Q-taro while also suggesting that Sara did it to save Gin more than to save Q-Taro. Gin, after all, has been fiercely loyal to Sara while Q-Taro hasn't been. Sou could also note that if Sara is willing to kill a fake human then what's to stop her from killing a real human the next time that the stakes get this high?

Among others, if Alice wasn't already in Sou's corner then watching Sara kill someone that is basically Alice's sister from a little under three years ago would definitely get him in said corner. Q-Taro would probably buy the whole, "Sara did it to save Gin and saving you just happened to be a part of the result." bit too.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


Sou might also find pushing the robot/doll/whatever to be gross, given his actual response to her crying about it was "this feels wrong---she's even crying like a real person would"

wologar
Feb 11, 2014


Toalpaz posted:

Not pushing is tantamount to murder of gin. By choosing not to save a life we are almost committing the murder ourselves. We don't know what it is like to exist as a doll AI, we do know what it's like to be human and exist as human. There's no evidence that she isn't a sophisticated program, a machine, rather than a thinking person. There is nothing sacred about lines of code designed to mimock human behavior and elicited emotional responses, when as far as we know, there is one and only Gin.

Sure, blame the participants of the death game instead of its instigators.

I wonder if the answers would change significantly if instead of Gin, the doomed person was Sou or Q-Taro.

wologar fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Apr 12, 2020

differentiating
Mar 30, 2019



NeoRonTheNeuron posted:

From a meta-game perspective, sure, I'd believe that Sara's inaction on this decision is likely to doom Gin, but I also wouldn't consider it to be a moral decision anymore if viewed that way.

If one thinks from Sara's position, not pushing is quite reasonable. She takes a massive reputation hit that won't have a guaranteed payoff.

Why is it assumed that Sara is the only one with the agency to save Gin by pushing fake Reko?
- Nao can do it or sacrifice herself.
- Fake Reko can jump in herself.
- Q-Taro can still swap places with Gin.

Why is it assumed that this must be a doll for human life trade?
- Sara/Nao/Gin/Q-Taro could be dolls too.
- There could be other solutions beyond pushing fake Reko.
- Pushing a mass into the spike pit does not guarantee that the poison gun will deactivate.
- Q-Taro might survive if he presses the button to swap.
- Gin might already be doomed to die if the 1st poison shot was a slow-acting poison.
- Real Reko may be killed if fake Reko is killed.

Gin being a doll isn't impossible. His personality is a bit more elementary then middle schooler. If he's been a doll this whole time, his personality could totally be 3 years out-of-date, just like fake Reko.

I agree with all of this. Each choice has consequences; there's no way Rio Ranger is pushing so hard to kill the fake Reko if he's really going to let Gin/Q-taro go, replace the real Reko, and everything is hunky-dory. Best case scenario, Sara's reputation (and likely her mental health as well) suffers a hit. Worst-case, there's a hidden catch, like the real Reko being killed if her counterpart dies or something.

From a player perspective, I'd definitely be interested to see both outcomes and how they affect the story, so I'm not particularly tied to one result or the other. I just think people are being a little silly in treating this like there's a clear black-and-white answer to this dilemma from Sara's perspective.

Though it's worth noting that, per the percentage papers we picked up earlier, Gin is an elementary student. So that's at least consistent.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




Also frankly as people have noted there is explicitly someone more capable of saving Gin than anyone else, and any death of Gin is based on Q-Taro not pressing that button. He even now knows that it would take all 5 to kill a full grown man and he's significantly larger than the average adult man.

Gin's death in the case of inaction here is as much if not more Q-Taro's fault than Sara, who has no promise anything she does can save Gin given the full rules of this game have not been explained.

wologar
Feb 11, 2014


differentiating posted:

I agree with all of this. Each choice has consequences; there's no way Rio Ranger is pushing so hard to kill the fake Reko if he's really going to let Gin/Q-taro go, replace the real Reko, and everything is hunky-dory. Best case scenario, Sara's reputation (and likely her mental health as well) suffers a hit. Worst-case, there's a hidden catch, like the real Reko being killed if her counterpart dies or something.

From a player perspective, I'd definitely be interested to see both outcomes and how they affect the story, so I'm not particularly tied to one result or the other. I just think people are being a little silly in treating this like there's a clear black-and-white answer to this dilemma from Sara's perspective.

Though it's worth noting that, per the percentage papers we picked up earlier, Gin is an elementary student. So that's at least consistent.

True. Either option is terrible, albeit for different reasons. I believe Sara would feel more at peace not pushing Doll-Reko, though. She's already traumatized by directly participating in Joe's death.

Sword_of_Dusk
Sep 30, 2018

Legendary Luminary


Lord_Magmar posted:

Also frankly as people have noted there is explicitly someone more capable of saving Gin than anyone else, and any death of Gin is based on Q-Taro not pressing that button. He even now knows that it would take all 5 to kill a full grown man and he's significantly larger than the average adult man.

Gin's death in the case of inaction here is as much if not more Q-Taro's fault than Sara, who has no promise anything she does can save Gin given the full rules of this game have not been explained.

Speaking of this, it spawns an interesting question: Why set it up in such a fashion? If you set up a trap like this, why not use a stronger substance that's fatal with just one injection? Why draw it out? I mean, sure, there's spectacle and torture involved, but this entire thing seems set up to have the participants produce the tension and drama.

Additionally, trust and trade have been key components of this little side game. Trade seems apparent given we're currently figuring out if one life should be traded for another, but the nature of this poison needed to be injected up to five times to kill a grown man makes me wonder. Faeko is a product of the Room of Lies, so to speak. While her status as a fake appears to be the lie surrounding her, what if it goes deeper? What if the key trade here is between the two people currently facing the stinger, and not whether to take a sentient life? What if this is all about those two figuring out a fair trade?

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




Sword_of_Dusk posted:

Speaking of this, it spawns an interesting question: Why set it up in such a fashion? If you set up a trap like this, why not use a stronger substance that's fatal with just one injection? Why draw it out? I mean, sure, there's spectacle and torture involved, but this entire thing seems set up to have the participants produce the tension and drama.

Additionally, trust and trade have been key components of this little side game. Trade seems apparent given we're currently figuring out if one life should be traded for another, but the nature of this poison needed to be injected up to five times to kill a grown man makes me wonder. Faeko is a product of the Room of Lies, so to speak. While her status as a fake appears to be the lie surrounding her, what if it goes deeper? What if the key trade here is between the two people currently facing the stinger, and not whether to take a sentient life? What if this is all about those two figuring out a fair trade?

I mean they spell it out, in theory the person who gets the most tokens is the person everyone trusts the most (this isn't what happens because Q-Taro just does a lot of trading) and the person who has the least tokens is the least trusted (nope, Gin is just bad at trading tokens around). Thus the conundrum for them is does the most trusted person feel the least trusted is worth saving, will you trade the person everyone likes for the person nobody likes. As noted though, Q-Taro is immensely selfish and a bit of a coward. The reason it requires all 5 to kill someone is absolutely to pressure the person with the button into choosing to save or not save the other player whilst having a clear countdown to guaranteed death for them.

As you can see, this hasn't happened because the nature of the tokens was hidden from every player, and what would happen with this particular game. I think the real chance to have no deaths came and went when we had clear levels of token swapping trust, much like the test that killed the Professor the way everyone survives this game is that everyone trades tokens equally so there is no most/least trusted to put up on the rotating target in the first place.

Sword_of_Dusk
Sep 30, 2018

Legendary Luminary


Lord_Magmar posted:

I mean they spell it out, in theory the person who gets the most tokens is the person everyone trusts the most (this isn't what happens because Q-Taro just does a lot of trading) and the person who has the least tokens is the least trusted (nope, Gin is just bad at trading tokens around). Thus the conundrum for them is does the most trusted person feel the least trusted is worth saving, will you trade the person everyone likes for the person nobody likes. As noted though, Q-Taro is immensely selfish and a bit of a coward. The reason it requires all 5 to kill someone is absolutely to pressure the person with the button into choosing to save or not save the other player whilst having a clear countdown to guaranteed death for them.

As you can see, this hasn't happened because the nature of the tokens was hidden from every player, and what would happen with this particular game. I think the real chance to have no deaths came and went when we had clear levels of token swapping trust, much like the test that killed the Professor the way everyone survives this game is that everyone trades tokens equally so there is no most/least trusted to put up on the rotating target in the first place.

I'm well aware of what Ranger told them, and what they haven't been told. My point here is that this entire Death Game has made trust a key thing, and yet, in a situation originally stated to be able to be cleared without loss of life, we find ourselves at a point in which a life (of sorts) has to be traded to save another. But there's another trade possible, which none of the characters have considered since learning the pertinent info.

To better visualize it, imagine that Gin was replaced by literally anyone else here. The two at the mercy of the poison can speak to each other. They can barter. They can actually establish a trade right then and there, once they've learned that one injection isn't fatal. Is it possible that that's the true solution to all this?

That's just a question born from me considering everything we've seen up to now. I've already cast my vote, so I might as well speculate elsewhere while we wait to see what happens.

MarquiseMindfang
Jan 6, 2013


Veryslightlymad posted:

Sou might also find pushing the robot/doll/whatever to be gross, given his actual response to her crying about it was "this feels wrong---she's even crying like a real person would"

Or maybe he's just playing it up so he can paint Sara as even more of a monster when she does it.

HydroSphere
Feb 11, 2014



Voting is open until tomorrow 11am BST, if you haven't voted yet or want to change your vote. I'm aiming to have the next update up tomorrow evening.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Amidiri
Apr 26, 2010


The doll is a fake SPECIFICALLY made to entrap the players, though. Even if you save her, your best case scenario is 'Reko then immediately has to kill her to be the Only Reko'. Worst case scenario is you end up with NO Rekos as the doll kills the human and the rest of the humans kill the doll. Even if Reko is already dead and has been replaced by the doll, it's not like anyone will ever trust or work with one of the dolls created by the death game organizers as a trap? Her personhood doesn't really matter here because there's victims no matter what.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply