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Zandar
Aug 22, 2008


From what we've heard, the doll is one of the replica AIs from the monitor installed in a doll body. There's no indication that Real Reko and Doll Reko have to get into a deathmatch if both of them survive - do you think Mishima would have punched his AI's monitor to death on encountering it?

There's also no indication that these AIs are any less capable of thought and emotions than humans, which means they shouldn't have any fewer rights and pushing one of them into a spike pit to satisfy some sociopath's demand is probably not the morally correct choice. Spare Reko.

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Arzaac
Jan 2, 2020




I've already played the game so I'm abstaining, but I do appreciate how this decision is the one that's causing pages and pages of discussion.

This is good poo poo, keep it up

LightningSquid
Dec 27, 2013


If she's a doll she's just a tool of the kidnappers, who's to say they can't use her to sow chaos whenever they want? Push her. Maybe the real Reko is still alive somewhere.

EDIT: Also, thinking about it, Gin probably needs medical attention ASAP. The more we waffle around trying to find another solution, the longer the human elementary schooler has to spend crucified and suffering in excruciating pain while we protect something that could turn around and shank one of the protags at any moment.

LightningSquid fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 12, 2020

Fumbles
Mar 21, 2013

Can I get a reroll?



Please get some more people in here to save the grade schooler over the obviously fake robot doll who has no guarantee of even actually feeling emotions instead of expressing that they feel emotions and who was also put there BY the people doing the murder game.

differentiating
Mar 30, 2019



I feel the need to point out that not killing the fake Reko isn't the same as trusting her blindly. We can keep her alive while still being wary of her. That's basically what we've been doing with Sou all chapter, after all.

That being said... I wouldn't be surprised if Rio Ranger decided to kill her off regardless, since she's been outed as a fake and thus is no longer really capable of sowing much discord once this attraction is done. But I still personally think the better choice here would be to refrain from pushing her and instead pressure Q-taro to step up and save Gin's life.

wologar
Feb 11, 2014


I think that what gets a lot of people is that Gin is a child. Had it been Sou at the target, pondering "What measure is a human?" would suddenly become more appealing.

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011






If it were Sou, my vote would be "push the fake into the pit after he gets his fifth shot". But then again, I tend to make it a rule of thumb to not trust replicants.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


differentiating posted:

I feel the need to point out that not killing the fake Reko isn't the same as trusting her blindly. We can keep her alive while still being wary of her. That's basically what we've been doing with Sou all chapter, after all.

That being said... I wouldn't be surprised if Rio Ranger decided to kill her off regardless, since she's been outed as a fake and thus is no longer really capable of sowing much discord once this attraction is done. But I still personally think the better choice here would be to refrain from pushing her and instead pressure Q-taro to step up and save Gin's life.

If the fake lives it will almost certainly be a question of when, not if, that knife goes in their collective backs.


Veryslightlymad posted:

Sou might also find pushing the robot/doll/whatever to be gross, given his actual response to her crying about it was "this feels wrong---she's even crying like a real person would"

Taking literally anything Sou says at face value means you've fallen for whatever bullshit Sou's trying to pull next. He's demonstrated repeatedly that Sou is in this for Sou, anything and anyone else is a means to that end.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


i would push the fake in for sou

also yes this question would be harder if it literally was a 'difficult' or 'bad' person being sacrificed and not an innocent child person. fortunately it is an innocent child we are choosing to murder through our innaction and sou will be sure to crush us with that knowledge.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


differentiating posted:

I feel the need to point out that not killing the fake Reko isn't the same as trusting her blindly. We can keep her alive while still being wary of her. That's basically what we've been doing with Sou all chapter, after all.

No, we can't, because that level of minute decision making isn't how this game works. If this decision kills Reko because the AI Reko goes berserk, which she's already doing confronted with her non-reality, That's not something we can affect outside this decision. Someone is going to die, and if everyone saying Spare, has a better plan that pushing her when Gin's life is on the line, please lay it out. Mostly you're all arguing that "Oh we shouldn't" But you got no solutions to the problem besides "Hoping really hard that 1. Q-taro is willing to press the button and 2. That he can survive it."

This is not Reko, the real Reko is still out there more than likely, anyone arguing that "Killing her could be the same as killing Reko" well you have no proof of that, not killing her could be the catalyst to kill Reko. Q-Taro pushing the button could be the catalyst to kill Reko, It's Fake Reko or Gin right now.


Toalpaz posted:

i would push the fake in for sou

also yes this question would be harder if it literally was a 'difficult' or 'bad' person being sacrificed and not an innocent child person. fortunately it is an innocent child we are choosing to murder through our innaction and sou will be sure to crush us with that knowledge.

Also this. If this was another Sara as a doll, I'd push her. gently caress if it was Joe I'd push him. It's Gin, he's alive, there's no debate or question for him.

differentiating
Mar 30, 2019



Onmi posted:

No, we can't, because that level of minute decision making isn't how this game works. If this decision kills Reko because the AI Reko goes berserk, which she's already doing confronted with her non-reality, That's not something we can affect outside this decision. Someone is going to die, and if everyone saying Spare, has a better plan that pushing her when Gin's life is on the line, please lay it out. Mostly you're all arguing that "Oh we shouldn't" But you got no solutions to the problem besides "Hoping really hard that 1. Q-taro is willing to press the button and 2. That he can survive it."

This is not Reko, the real Reko is still out there more than likely, anyone arguing that "Killing her could be the same as killing Reko" well you have no proof of that, not killing her could be the catalyst to kill Reko. Q-Taro pushing the button could be the catalyst to kill Reko, It's Fake Reko or Gin right now.


Also this. If this was another Sara as a doll, I'd push her. gently caress if it was Joe I'd push him. It's Gin, he's alive, there's no debate or question for him.

I mean, there is no plan here on either side, just like you pointed out - it's a binary decision. We don't know what options are next. The push argument doesn't provide any more of a real justification than the spare one does from that perspective. Both decisions will obviously have consequences, and neither is a clear 'right' choice. We don't know if Gin will die if we don't push the fake Reko. We don't know that the real Reko won't if we do. And we don't know how either option will impact Sara, or others' opinions of her.

I actually don't care that much about which side wins, even though I have a slight preference for sparing Reko. There are legitimate reasons to vote either way, imo. I just think some of these arguments are getting a little histrionic. :shrug:

A Bystander
Oct 10, 2012


If I were Sara, I would simply throw Faeko at Q-Taro and Gin and knock the targets down before the needle goes off, thus saving everyone before my collar goes off and I die a horrible death.

Anyway, given everything said so far, I vote to spare.

Stoner Sloth
Apr 2, 2019



I vote push the fake

Rocketwitch
Sep 2, 2011



Push the fake Reko into the spikes and save Gin. We can't count on Q-Taro to do anything with the button.

placid saviour
Apr 6, 2009


I love this loving forum where everyone turns into a lawyer-philosopher over a decision in an anime game

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH

I want there to be two Rekos, arguing about which one has to get a haircut to tell them apart.

Onehandclapping
Oct 21, 2010


Give in to the bloodlust, SHOVE THAT DOLL

Fumbles
Mar 21, 2013

Can I get a reroll?



placid saviour posted:

I love this loving forum where everyone turns into a lawyer-philosopher over a decision in an anime game

seeing kids die sucks. Even fake anime JPG kids.

Tylana
May 5, 2011



Pillbug

placid saviour posted:

I love this loving forum where everyone turns into a lawyer-philosopher over a decision in an anime game

Counterpoint : I love anime games that make you want to be a lawyer-philsopher over it's decisions.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


placid saviour posted:

I love this loving forum where everyone turns into a lawyer-philosopher over a decision in an anime game
This but unironically.

HydroSphere
Feb 11, 2014






(I... can't do it...!! Even knowing it's not the real Reko... I can't kill this person...!!)

“Sara...”

“Thank you...”

“..............”

“Sara...!!”





“Awww... Too bad. Guess the Sub-Game'll be closing out on this.”

“...............”





“Gin...”








I can't do anything. Only watch.




Music stops.












“Gin!! Q-taro!!”

“Hang on, you two! I saw an antidote in the Medical Office! I'll bring it here! Until then, hold on...!!”

The Impression Room we were riding on slowly returned to the surface.

“No...!! This can't...!!”

“Stay with us, both of you...! Please...!!”





“...Sara.”

“...Huh...?”

“Let's go look for Reko...!”

“I... can't... I can't leave these two...”

“The policeman... he'll surely bring the antidote!! We should do what we have to do...!!”

“But... Gin looks so weak... Even Q-taro...”

“We're going, Sara!!”

Music stops.

And then, I... was dragged out the room.




“Aren't you late. Welcome to the Room of Lies! The stage is all set!”








"Huh? Confessing it that easily? So boring! See, I was thinking of having a quiz...”

"What...?!”

"Ahaha... You guys ever heard of doppelgangers?”

"Someone witnessing you somewhere you never went. Or else, you meeting another you...”

"In some countries, that phenomenon... is considered an omen of death.”





"Ahaha! It's begun!”

"Ranger!! What's the meaning of this?!”

"It's 'cause they're doppelgangers.”



"No...!!”





"Stop it already...!! Ranger!!”

"You three idiot girls are just so friendly... Well then... I'll let you choose who to save.

"Huh...?!”

"Save whoever you like more! And if you don't pick either, both'll die.”

"...!!”

(This is awful...)



"Putting people's lives on scales again...?! I've had... enough of it...!!”

Music stops.

"Think you've got something wrong there.”

"Eh...?”

"Don't be so self-centered, Sara Chidouin. The one I'm saying I'll let choose is...”





"M... Me...?”



"Sigh, you're just full of complaints, huh? As a special service, how about you use this?”



"That's...!”





The right Reko grabbed the knife.



"Wha...?!”

"..........”




Music stops.

"...You can't do such a thing. Because... you're a copy of Reko... Even in this short time, I understood... You can't possibly hurt a friend.”

"...So I'm sorry. Reko is my friend, too... I need to save her...”





"Huh...?”




"Reko...”



"Reko!!”






"Huh? Well, that's strange... Maybe because Nao didn't choose?”




Music stops.





"Wake her up! Nao!! Sara!! Won't you explain?!”

"...R... Reko is...”

"What are you trying to say...?!”



"This can't be...”

"It's inconceivable Reko would die...!!”

"You see how much she's bleeding? C'mon, you know it.”

"This is the fake Reko's blood, right?! I won't be fooled!!”

"Nope, the fake doesn't bleed!”

"Look, collapsed over there! The headless Reko is the fake.”

"No... I won't believe it...!!”

"Reko is so much stronger, luckier, and more hateful than me...!!”

"She's... a person whose life has value...!!”

"My one and only... sister...”








"Ahaha! So scary, Alice!”




“Oh well. Seems I'll just have to kill you too!”

Music stops.







“What... is going on...?!”







“Do you... hate me or something...?!”

“Wasn't I... your greatest masterpiece, dad...?”

“That is in the past... Why do you think you were the most human of the dolls I created?”

“Because... you put your affection into me most...”




“Humans have it nice. I envy humans. Why am I a doll? What's so great about humans?! ...And so on. With that complex you could never overcome, you burned with deep jealousy... and truly qualified as “human.””



“T... That's...”

“Yet... For the burning flames of jealousy to turn one into a monster... that is just as human.”




Music stops.





“I invite you now again to the Main Game.”

“!!”




“In this case, you may use the exchange function to forcibly swap cards with another.”

“However, you must use the Me-Tokens you have earned in order to utilise the function.”

“The trust tokens you have earned up to this point will be essential in deciding the battle.”



“I am the Reception Doll... No, let us do away with the tedious set dressing.”

Music stops.





















  • As promised there'll be a few additional updates covering bad ends and a couple of other things, including what happens had we chosen to push the fake Reko before moving on to 2-2.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



Well, I guess that puts to bed the idea that the main characters are dolls. At least dolls in the same form that the established dolls are.

David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


Interesting. If you don't push, Q-Taro and Gin survive, and both Rekos die anyway. I wonder what happens if you do push? Something similarly unexpected, probably. Undermining the player's choice like this feels like a bit of a cheap trick, but we'll see how it goes.

Sum Gai
Mar 23, 2013


In theory anyway, pushing FakeReko will let the actual Reko live, since the redundancy never has a chance to come up. It seems pretty doubtful that's what'll actually happen, though.

OOrochi
Jan 19, 2017


Okay. I'm a bit bummed that Reko is dead.

That said, while I've been really enjoying the writing so far, that feels like a bit of a cop out to make sure someone died.

MarquiseMindfang
Jan 6, 2013


At the very least, for metagaming reasons I imagine pushing her means Reko dies anyway somehow, or someone else dies. I can't see the branches having uneven numbers of living characters in them. Just for like, voting reasons.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


I mean naturally they would have to sort out the implication of having two reko's running around. I think this is fair because having another survive leaves the fate of the original uncertain.

Also that is a TOP TEN ANIME BETRAYAL. WOW! I wonder if that happens to ranger if we go the other path.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Yeah, uh...I don't feel my choice mattered here if choosing to save someone means that someone dies anyways, and takes someone with her too. Feels kind of cheap in all honesty.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Blaze Dragon posted:

Yeah, uh...I don't feel my choice mattered here if choosing to save someone means that someone dies anyways, and takes someone with her too. Feels kind of cheap in all honesty.

Congrats, you let a less emotionally developed version of someone encounter the real one, and they did the obvious thing of trying to kill the real one. Guess the spare crowd's reasoning of Q-taro and Gin can work things out between themselves was right though. A shame about the other, very obvious, downsides of keeping the doll Reko alive.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


This is also less cheap and actually good writing too because the character Q-Taro also choose to exercise agency and his motivation is nicely and clearly defined. He is sad about not having parents, so when he remembers Gin's relationship with his family and imagines his loss he is moved to take action. This is fine lol.

sleeptalker
Feb 17, 2011



Toalpaz posted:

Also that is a TOP TEN ANIME BETRAYAL. WOW! I wonder if that happens to ranger if we go the other path.

Same here, would he have been considered a "failure" if we'd chosen to push Fake Reko and had Sara suffer the guilt from it? That's "negative emotions" after all.

tweet my meat
Oct 2, 2013

yospos


So I guess the only difference is that Reko would be alive if we pushed the fake? Kinda lame that the people getting executed didn't actually matter at all unless they pull some dumb poo poo where sacrificing fake Reko somehow dooms them to die which would be even dumber. There's not much punch to a moral dilemma if there aren't any consequences or the consequences are just kinda randomly decided.

Maybe it really is a situation where it's just the same result of both Rekos dying no matter your choice which would mean there wasn't actually any point to the whole game, I really hope not.

Nick Buntline
Dec 20, 2007
Doesn't know the impossible.



Blaze Dragon posted:

Yeah, uh...I don't feel my choice mattered here if choosing to save someone means that someone dies anyways, and takes someone with her too. Feels kind of cheap in all honesty.

i mean, the game explicitly had a second prompt saying "you do realize not pushing means Gin dies right?". this was always a trolley problem, someone was always gonna die, it was just a matter of who and how.

OOrochi
Jan 19, 2017


I have a feeling that if we'd pushed the fake, it wouldn't have done anything to stop the needle. Everyone would've been in shock that it didn't stop, leading Gin to get hit again before Q-Taro gets his wits back.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Nick Buntline posted:

i mean, the game explicitly had a second prompt saying "you do realize not pushing means Gin dies right?". this was always a trolley problem, someone was always gonna die, it was just a matter of who and how.

Except that explicitely did not happen. Not pushing Reko killed the person we decided not to kill, not Gin. The game literally lied to the player here.

Akumu
Apr 24, 2003



Perhaps the lesson is that consequentialism is not a useful framework for moral decision making when you have no way of predicting consequences.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


Akumu posted:

Perhaps the lesson is that consequentialism is not a useful framework for moral decision making when you have no way of predicting consequences.

:hmmyes:

tweet my meat
Oct 2, 2013

yospos


Akumu posted:

Perhaps the lesson is that consequentialism is not a useful framework for moral decision making when you have no way of predicting consequences.

That's a great lesson to take from it, it's also a really lame and uncompelling way to design a video game based around moral choices.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Well, will someone please pick up that phone? Because I loving CALLED IT!

Also :sadwave:

Onmi fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Apr 13, 2020

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Goon Boots
Feb 2, 2020





Well shucks. I knew there was going to be some tomfoolery with the outcome of whatever decision was made, but I didn't expect it to be like that. They didn't even have a bit of fun with two Rekos.

However, I understand that trying to write the game with a major branching point like this and keep it for a substantial amount of the game would be very difficult.

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