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goblin week
Jan 26, 2019



quote:


bernie joke

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Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

Cuz I'm a creep
I'm a weirdo
What the hell am I doin' here
I don't belong here

Uhhh... well, my theory about this being some sort of experiment was right, if Satou is telling the truth.

PlasticAutomaton
Nov 12, 2016

Artoria Pendonut




Oh hey go figure, keeping the doll around that was specifically created by our captors was a completely terrible idea.

...At least Q-Taro ended up doing the right thing. Good on you, hamburger.

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH

I mean, it only went bad when Ranger told them 'Only one of you gets to live'.

Ignatius M. Meen
May 26, 2011

Hello yes I heard there was a lovely trainwreck here and...



It would have been better if Gin had died AND Fakeo killed Reko, would have been a total punch to people who would choose a doll designed to gently caress with the players over a fellow child player instead of ending up a copout on the trolley problem part. But the 'choose the Reko you want to keep around' result was totally predictable, along with Fakeo's reaction.

That said, if the reason Gin survives this is so that the branches have the same number of living players in the Main Game, that means that either Reko or Gin dies in the push branch, which puts me in the "this plot design and choice kinda sucks here" camp.

Falconer
Dec 7, 2003

Did you know, I was THE MOON once!

Yes! You see, one night it turned out the moon had been STOLEN!

The animal people asked ME to take its place as I am so WISE and BRILLIANT!!


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Congrats, you let a less emotionally developed version of someone encounter the real one, and they did the obvious thing of trying to kill the real one. Guess the spare crowd's reasoning of Q-taro and Gin can work things out between themselves was right though. A shame about the other, very obvious, downsides of keeping the doll Reko alive.

Eh, I dunno. Ranger, the doll that it turns out has a massive hate/jealousy boner for humans, clearly would have a contingency plan in place just in case the right solution was chosen (Q-taro pressing the button). Hell, that's mostly why Ranger has a third eyehole now; Q-Taro managed to find his spine and pressed the button so Ranger decided to set up the situation that led to the deaths of both the real Reko and himself.

Going back to the spare/push choice, suppose that Sara decides to push Faeko. Faeko falls to her death via impalement but the game doesn't end since Q-Taro hasn't pressed the button. The events still unfold much the same way they do in the current path (Q-taro presses the button after hearing Gin's pleas) except Faeko isn't around to kill Reko. No humans are dead so Ranger cooks up a scenario out of the blue which leads to someone other than the real Reko dying, again in a way that is out of Sara's (the player's) control and which leads to the Father of Negative Emotions intervening and ending Ranger's existence.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Oh yeah, somebody else definitely dies. But it's probably going to be Alice. If this route is there to twist the knife into Alice, the other one will twist the knife into Reko.

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH

No, this one pretty clearly had the knife-twisting in Reko...

Baron Zephyrus
Apr 17, 2018


Hey, uh, I know I've just been lurking and reading this silently until now but, uh. Something was bothering me.

Don't let the Reko fake distract you from what really happened here.

HydroSphere posted:


I am the Reception Doll... No, let us do away with the tedious set dressing.

Music stops.




That surname is awfully... familiar...

HydroSphere posted:


"I am Kai Satou. A rather unremarkable homemaker."




They even stand in almost the same pose (just arms are different)

Which means, this guy is clearly the person Kai was talking to in this email

HydroSphere posted:



It's about time. If any harm comes to Sara Chidouin, I will stand against even you as an enemy.

There was no way they were ever going to let Kai live beyond the first Main Game, but I wonder what would have happened if he had lived. If he would have outed the "Receptionist."


Also good riddance on Rio, I really hated that guy even more than Sou. At least Sou has a reasonable motivation in wanting to survive, even if he's vile in how he does it. Rio was cruel for cruelty's own sake.

wologar
Feb 11, 2014


If it turns out that this death game is a novel way to research negative emotions, they could have just taken a look at the last few pages of this thread.

Akumu
Apr 24, 2003



wologar posted:

If it turns out that this death game is a novel way to research negative emotions, they could have just taken a look at the last few pages of this thread.

That's what we call ludonarrative consonance.

David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


Toalpaz posted:

This is also less cheap and actually good writing too because the character Q-Taro also choose to exercise agency and his motivation is nicely and clearly defined. He is sad about not having parents, so when he remembers Gin's relationship with his family and imagines his loss he is moved to take action. This is fine lol.

Even if this isnt cheap - and I disagree, as Q-Taro wouldve experienced the same motivations before the characters could have found a clever way out - Keiji suddenly remembering that hed seen an antidote in the kitchen (was this ever even mentioned before?) isnt spectacular.

E: I suppose I dont really have a leg to stand on here; I voted specifically to see whatd happen when the Rekos met each other and how itd handle the remainder of the poison and ended up getting exactly what Id asked for.

David Corbett fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Apr 14, 2020

Fumbles
Mar 21, 2013

Can I get a reroll?



Oh look! Rescuing the fake person who was created solely to toy with our emotions meant they were able to toy with our emotions and they killed her AND the real one anyway!

I am legitimately surprised they didn't kill either Q-Taro or Gin, though. I really did misread that bit about the fifth dart. But I get the distinct impression that if you'd pushed the Fake Reko in the real one wouldn't have had to die, the game worked really hard to make you work for the choice of learning about the fake reko in time to do something about it.

Mystic Mongol
Jan 5, 2007

Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.



College Slice

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Congrats, you let a less emotionally developed version of someone encounter the real one, and they did the obvious thing of trying to kill the real one. Guess the spare crowd's reasoning of Q-taro and Gin can work things out between themselves was right though. A shame about the other, very obvious, downsides of keeping the doll Reko alive.

Yes, the very real, inescapable downside of the murder doll promptly forcing another murder minutes after the first one, and then being killed by their father, a researcher into negative emotions who is also a doll. I mean, who couldn't see that coming? I learned that poo poo in introduction to professional ethics in engineering, and am ashamed that I forgot about it.

Tenebrais posted:

Well, I guess that puts to bed the idea that the main characters are dolls. At least dolls in the same form that the established dolls are.

I'm tripling down. Even the people running the scenario are dolls.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Considering what just happened, I think this game would be better off as a visual novel without these kinds of choices. We've been cheated every time.

That aside, there were some interesting hints given:
- Rio Ranger said "the fake doesn't bleed". If taken to mean that dolls don't bleed, the Sue Miley smacked by Kai is alive.
- Researcher Satou is likely related to Kai. As was pointed out, he's likely to be the one Kai was emailing.
- The Main Game is the same format as last time (Keymaster, Sage, Sacrifice, Commoners), so this is likely to be a constant.

The Main Game gives us even more control than before; you can use your tokens to force role swaps. In addition to getting your preferred role, I wonder if the trades themselves have to be analyzed during the Main Game.
- What's the price to force a swap?
- Do you get to choose who to swap with, or is it random?
- If you get to choose who to swap with, do you have to pay with tokens obtained from that person?
- If your role is forcibly taken away, do you only learn that it happened, or do you also learn who you swapped with?

This isn't looking great for Gin, but it's not necessarily so great for those who ranked high. The ones who ranked high may have touched a lot of tokens, but they almost certainly don't own as many as they touched.

The Main Game still has the Sage can't lie about the outcome weakness, right? Won't it just devolve into the same discussion again?

NeoRonTheNeuron fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Apr 14, 2020

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


:allears:

tomanton
May 22, 2006

beam me up, tomato

Are we sure Q-Taro and Gin aren't actually dead? That was way too many anime sparkles for people who just got poisoned or something

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Mystic Mongol posted:

Yes, the very real, inescapable downside of the murder doll promptly forcing another murder minutes after the first one, and then being killed by their father, a researcher into negative emotions who is also a doll. I mean, who couldn't see that coming? I learned that poo poo in introduction to professional ethics in engineering, and am ashamed that I forgot about it.

A good portion of us said something like this would happen, specifically because she was a Doll made by our captors and they want to gently caress over the group any way they can. There was no way a Doll of them made to look like a trusted friend wasn't going to pull something that'd screw the group over. "I told you so" is a pretty apt response to how this played out.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


Not only did we make an ethically correct decision, but we inspired Q-Taro to make an ethically correct decision, which he otherwise wouldn't.

And all we lost was a person without forgiveness in their heart. Probably the best outcome, really.

Ignatius M. Meen
May 26, 2011

Hello yes I heard there was a lovely trainwreck here and...



Veryslightlymad posted:

Not only did we make an ethically correct decision, but we inspired Q-Taro to make an ethically correct decision, which he otherwise wouldn't.

And all we lost was a person without forgiveness in their heart. Probably the best outcome, really.

No, the fake Reko was the one who smashed the bongos. We did the Room of Lies before helping Alice out, remember? So the only person assuredly without forgiveness in their heart was the person people opted to save.

And no, we did not inspire Q-Taro to do anything. Gin's mention of his parents was the only thing that actually got Q-Taro to put something besides keeping himself safe first. Sure, this is good development for him which wouldn't have happened if Sara stepped in, but Gin can't trust her now and the real Reko is dead so Alice can't even know whether he might have been able to reconcile.

Ignatius M. Meen fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Apr 14, 2020

Mindblast
Jun 28, 2006

Moving at the speed of death.




Idk this whole "my choices didnt work out as planned this feels unfair" issue feels like it puts you a bit closer to what it's like for those characters to go through this. So I was fine with seeing where my choices ended me up.

Hazdoc
Nov 8, 2012

Muscovy Ducks are a large tropical breed, famous for their lean and extremely flavorful meat.

Hazduck!

~SMcD

I dunno I feel like this played out pretty well. Very curious to see what would happen if we pushed her in, though.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and guess that the people who're upset right now thought that by making the right choice, they'd be able to keep everyone from dying. You know that's not how this genre works, friends. :allears:

Edit: At least, that's my Doylian smugness. From a Watsonian perspective, Rio absolutely stepped over the line, you're right. Hm. I wonder if anyone's going to punish him in some way for it.

girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Apr 14, 2020

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


PMush Perfect posted:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and guess that the people who're upset right now thought that by making the right choice, they'd be able to keep everyone from dying. You know that's not how this genre works, friends. :allears:

Edit: At least, that's my Doylian smugness. From a Watsonian perspective, Rio absolutely stepped over the line, you're right. Hm. I wonder if anyone's going to punish him in some way for it.

Well, I mean, he got shot in the head... so I think he got pretty punished.

Veriun
Mar 9, 2013

As long as we're alive,
good things will come.

And we'll be okay.


Q-taro came through, the push choice not winning was worth it just to see that (though I wonder what would've happened had we pushed. Would Q-taro still have pressed the button? Would it have been necessary, in the small, unlikely event that it would have stopped the darts?). You go, hamburger man. Finally something nice amid all the bad. :unsmith:

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


Pushing Faeko probably was the best idea from a metagaming perspective, of thinking through the most likely narrative outcomes. But I think what one of the earlier posts was getting at is that these outcomes that seem blindingly obvious by game and story logic ("Well of course the game will come up with some way to even out the deaths, or to avoid two Rekos!") wouldn't apply if this kind of ridiculous scenario ever somehow happened for real somewhere in our actual world. So those reasons can't be taken seriously by anyone trying to pretend this was a reality-based moral debate.

I also think this choice was more realistic for what an actual person like Sara in the situation would do, trying to make up her mind in seconds instead of having a leisurely trolley debate. And faced with the prospect of having to physically push someone very humanlike to their death by her own hand.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


Onmi posted:

Well, I mean, he got shot in the head... so I think he got pretty punished.
:thejoke:

Ignatius M. Meen
May 26, 2011

Hello yes I heard there was a lovely trainwreck here and...



The seconds decision in favor of pushing is child > adult (who is a less emotionally developed copy of one of the players) and believing Q-Taro can't be relied on to lift a finger in Gin's favor. I don't think that's really unrealistic either.

mycelia
Apr 28, 2013

just a big doofus fightin pokemons





The wait to show off the other path is going to be excruciating, huh. (I didn't even realise I had a choice when I played, which is more me being a dumbass than anything else, but I also really did not trust Q-taro to save Gin, and my Sara had just spent as much time as possible playing big sister to him.)

Also since we now have confirmation that dolls don't bleed, we can say for certain that Sue Miley's human (although most people guessed that already).

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011






Kai was the one that caused Sue to bleed, right? I wonder if that was because he knew she was not a doll, but also knew no one would take him at his word.

And I'll be curious to see what happened when we do push the doll into a pit.

CountryMatters
Apr 8, 2009

IT KEEPS HAPPENING


Kind of surprised by how many people are angry and bitter that in a Saw-style horror game you can't just use Facts and Logic to manipulate yourself to a perfect ending where everyone goes home safe and gets ice cream

Like, have you ever encountered this genre before?

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH

We were hoping for an ending with as many survivors as possible, all of them Reko.

Obligatum VII
May 5, 2014

Haunting you until no 8 arrives.

Toalpaz posted:

This is also less cheap and actually good writing too because the character Q-Taro also choose to exercise agency and his motivation is nicely and clearly defined. He is sad about not having parents, so when he remembers Gin's relationship with his family and imagines his loss he is moved to take action. This is fine lol.

Forcing Q-taro to grow as a person and actually hit the button is, in a way, a refutation of the whole game. Because it presupposes such things are not possible, negative emotion, etc. etc. and is forcing the scenarios to try and prove that supposed point.

The whole thing with the two Rekos feels like Rio going off the rails to gently caress them over, thus getting shot.

Sword_of_Dusk
Sep 30, 2018

Legendary Luminary


My curiosity about the other path was too strong, so I looked into it. Can't talk about it until it gets shown off, but I've some words about the whole situation.

HydroSphere
Feb 11, 2014



I'm aiming to get the remaining 2-1 updates out this week - current plan is to show off the "push" path on Friday.

HydroSphere fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Apr 14, 2020

Goon Boots
Feb 2, 2020





Sword_of_Dusk posted:

My curiosity about the other path was too strong, so I looked into it. Can't talk about it until it gets shown off, but I've some words about the whole situation.

Are the words going to be :piss:

tweet my meat
Oct 2, 2013

yospos


PMush Perfect posted:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and guess that the people who're upset right now thought that by making the right choice, they'd be able to keep everyone from dying. You know that's not how this genre works, friends. :allears:

Edit: At least, that's my Doylian smugness. From a Watsonian perspective, Rio absolutely stepped over the line, you're right. Hm. I wonder if anyone's going to punish him in some way for it.

CountryMatters posted:

Kind of surprised by how many people are angry and bitter that in a Saw-style horror game you can't just use Facts and Logic to manipulate yourself to a perfect ending where everyone goes home safe and gets ice cream

Like, have you ever encountered this genre before?

I'm more upset that the consequences for the choice are pretty much arbitrarily decided and don't have much to do with the actual decision which may as well be made at random. Nobody here thinks there's some hyper optimal outcome where nobody dies and everyone's happy so there's no need to smugly patronize whatever strawman you're talking to.

Consequentialism may be a bad way to judge moral dilemmas in real life, but it's a good framework to make an entertaining and compelling narrative where your choices actually mean something, and if you're not going to have the consequences be related to your decisions then you may as well not even have them.

CountryMatters
Apr 8, 2009

IT KEEPS HAPPENING


tweet my meat posted:

I'm more upset that the consequences for the choice are pretty much arbitrarily decided and don't have much to do with the actual decision which may as well be made at random. Nobody here thinks there's some hyper optimal outcome where nobody dies and everyone's happy so there's no need to smugly patronize whatever strawman you're talking to.

Consequentialism may be a bad way to judge moral dilemmas in real life, but it's a good framework to make an entertaining and compelling narrative where your choices actually mean something, and if you're not going to have the consequences be related to your decisions then you may as well not even have them.

The game isn't trying to make you have a moral dilemma where you carefully judge the best outcome, it's trying to make you angry and upset and frustrated and a bit scared, because it's a horror game about being tortured by a lunatic who has no interest in playing fair and that's how the victims feel.

Sword_of_Dusk
Sep 30, 2018

Legendary Luminary


Goon Boots posted:

Are the words going to be :piss:

Not quite, but that's not that far off.

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Eeepies
May 29, 2013

No, that's Magic!


If push results in Gin dying i'm going to be really pissed. Went into thoughts about the next voting game though.

It's clearly divided into Team Sara and Team Sou at this point, with Team Sara consisting of Sara, Keiji, and Nao, while Team Sou consists of Sou and Kanna. Gin used to be on Team Sara, but after this incident he probably is on team Q-taro instead, and who knows how Q-taro will support. The one dilemma is Alice, and now that Reko is dead we have no idea how Alice is going to vote. So if Sara can get Q-taro + Gin on their side, they have a 5-2 advantage, and Alice wouldn't matter, but if Sou/Kanna can get the other 3 on their side, Sara's in trouble.

Of course, the roles are going to have their say in this matter, like if either Kanna or Sou gets the Sacrifice, they can scheme to get both of them out to safety.

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