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Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




Julias posted:

Generally when I see people use 'anime' as a descriptor, it is used in a pejorative way, to say "it's too zany, too wacky and exaggerated, too much fanservice, too many anime tropes, etc": it's why I tend to avoid using it as a descriptor in general. It's also just really imprecise and leads to misunderstandings, so it doubly sucks.

Yeah this, basically. It's just my personal preference, but the styling and humor and whatnot of Akanesasu shoujo just doesn't jive with me. There are plenty of other things that do that are equally 'anime' so I tend to focus my attention on those

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DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013


i think people would do better to point out specifically what they dislike about something instead of using the word for the entire medium as a vague pejorative

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



DisDisDis posted:

i think people would do better to point out specifically what they dislike about something instead of using the word for the entire medium as a vague pejorative

DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013


to clarify not cuz i even care about the pejorative part that much but just because no one knows what anyone else means by it

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010



Karen has always been somewhat powerful


DisDisDis posted:

the author of the allegedly bad Himegoto designed and voices a boy youtuber i think is cute so it;s impossible to say etc



Hell yeah thats cute

Syenite
Jun 21, 2011

delete this


Grimey Drawer

Cuntellectual posted:

Does anyone remember what that one genderbend manga was called where the main character abruptly enters a cocoon at one point and it's never brought up again?

Someone mentioned at one point it has an interquel, and I forgot the name. (Though apparently it does the "well im a girl now so i guess i like guys" thing)

The first thing that came to mind reading this description was actually Tensei Shoujo Zukan :nws:

Nyoro
Jan 14, 2010



Hi I'm a trans woman and I like anime

Haibane Renmei is the poo poo

Stalin-Chan
Feb 11, 2009


So, I started watching akanesasu shoujo and the general vibe of the room was everyone hated it.

I cannot account for the tastes of my friends but that is a bad omen for me. I can kind of understand the criticism of it, although I found it alright.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


Stalin-Chan posted:

So, I started watching akanesasu shoujo and the general vibe of the room was everyone hated it.

I cannot account for the tastes of my friends but that is a bad omen for me. I can kind of understand the criticism of it, although I found it alright.

ur friends sound lame

Perpetual Motion
Aug 12, 2013


First, I just want to say that I really appreciate that this thread exists, because tracking down inclusive narratives in fiction is always a pain. I'm asexual and non-binary, though, which makes finding things to directly relate to unfortunately difficult. The vast majority of queer narratives are romances, which just don't interest me outright. Asexuality is a really tricky thing when it comes to stories, because it's defined by absence rather than difference, and nominally straight characters who just don't happen to do romance in a story are incredibly common. You basically have to spell out that a character is ace for it to be apparent, and that's pretty awkward from a writing perspective. The only mainstream anime I've ever seen do it organically is One Piece, and even there it's just a combination of a big joke and plot device to disable another character's primary power which clearly isn't ideal in terms of representation.

I'm not even sure how you'd even have an asexual narrative in the first place? I know Bojack Horseman did a whole episode on the topic, but informative self-discovery moments are an awfully narrow set of plot beats to be restricted to. I just want a story with an ace person just existing and dealing with their reality day-to-day, I guess? I dunno, I'm not nearly a good enough writer myself to conceive of what I'm thinking in a way that's remotely compelling. Anybody here know of some stuff in this category? I'm sure something of quality had to have been written on the topic at some point.

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


Bloom Into You has an asexual side character, but it's a romance story and the asexual character's role in the story is kinda defined in relation to the romances occurring between people around him, so that's probably not really what you're looking for.

skaianDestiny
Jan 13, 2017

beep boop


How's Bloom Into You by the way?

Waci
May 30, 2011


It's good at what it does, but it's not particularly messy in the way a lot of people here like or the only decently written thing in its niche or anything like that

Waci fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 4, 2020

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



Our Dreams at Dusk, also known as Shimanami Tasogare, is by Yuhki Kamatani--who identifies as x-gender and asexual--and features a host of LGBTQ+ characters, including an explicitly ace character.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

bloom is a pretty good romance thing that gets really really good whenever it focuses on one of the side characters and apparently had a good ending i haven't read the manga

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



They also wrote Nabari no Ou which got mentioned upthread, though I never read or watched it.

Saagonsa
Dec 29, 2012

It means everything.


I downloaded akanesasu shoujo, and will probably watch it on my weekend. I'm trusting you on this one bees

Also Our Dreams at Dusk is very good, would recommend.

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






Saagonsa posted:

I downloaded akanesasu shoujo, and will probably watch it on my weekend. I'm trusting you on this one bees

Also Our Dreams at Dusk is very good, would recommend.


Stalin-Chan posted:

So, I started watching akanesasu shoujo and the general vibe of the room was everyone hated it.

I cannot account for the tastes of my friends but that is a bad omen for me. I can kind of understand the criticism of it, although I found it alright.

So the show is divided into mini arcs. Ep 2/3 are its own arc, 4/5, etc. 1 is standalone. If you're not digging 1-2 super much, I'd give 4/5 an attempt, because that is when the show really takes off. If you're willing to give it the time.

RottenK
Feb 17, 2011

Sexy bad choices

FAILED NOJOE

People seemed kinda down on Double Decker! Doug & Kirill when it was airing, and i agree with some of the complaints about the latter part of the plot, but it was still a fun show.

The cast also has a lesbian couple, and at least two of the other characters in the main cast are, or at least implied to be bisexual.

It's not without downsides though. I saw some criticism of how a trans character that briefly appeared in one of the episodes was handled. They were 100% intended to be sympathetic and the show respects their identity and makes no lovely jokes at their expense, but they are part of another character's backstory and they get a bad end which serves as part of that character's motivation.

Another thing some people might not like is that a side character develops a one-sided crush on a handsome crossdresser without realising that it's a man, and the other characters don't tell him because they think it's funny. The crossdresser isn't in on the joke and is not aware of the crush so there's no gross implications about entrapping. This ends with the two finding out about the other's secret and both being fine with it. I wasn't sure if their last scene together was implying that they will grow closer, or just showing that they're still good friends, but it ends on a positive note either way.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



skaianDestiny posted:

How's Bloom Into You by the way?
It's decent but I think the best parts of it are Sayaka, who's a side character whose narrative got shunted to a spinoff LN (though she still gets a decent arc in the manga) and the stuff at the end where they're an established couple, which is obviously the stuff at the end ofi t. The rest of it is decent but the most interesting parts of it are the bits that get the least focus, is my take.

Love the older lesbian couple, though.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





I'm enjoying Vampeerz.

https://myanimelist.net/manga/121226/Vampeerz

From the maker of Prism so that may be a good or a bad thing, depending on your perspective.

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


Squiddycat posted:

Hi I'm a trans woman and I like anime

Haibane Renmei is the poo poo

:hr:

Haibane Renmei was basically the totality of my egg teenage years. I spent so much time daydreaming about hatching from a cocoon as a cute sad angel girl who got to live in an all-female commune.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



My egg show was Ranma. "Wish the spring was real. Just to know. Who wouldn't want to know? It might even be better!"

That was at 10. I didn't figure it out til 27, gently caress

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010


Bloom Into You looks very nice, at least. I don't think it goes too hard into Citrus level melodrama while still keeping a fairly grounded story.


Perpetual Motion posted:

First, I just want to say that I really appreciate that this thread exists, because tracking down inclusive narratives in fiction is always a pain. I'm asexual and non-binary, though, which makes finding things to directly relate to unfortunately difficult. The vast majority of queer narratives are romances, which just don't interest me outright. Asexuality is a really tricky thing when it comes to stories, because it's defined by absence rather than difference, and nominally straight characters who just don't happen to do romance in a story are incredibly common. You basically have to spell out that a character is ace for it to be apparent, and that's pretty awkward from a writing perspective. The only mainstream anime I've ever seen do it organically is One Piece, and even there it's just a combination of a big joke and plot device to disable another character's primary power which clearly isn't ideal in terms of representation.

I'm not even sure how you'd even have an asexual narrative in the first place? I know Bojack Horseman did a whole episode on the topic, but informative self-discovery moments are an awfully narrow set of plot beats to be restricted to. I just want a story with an ace person just existing and dealing with their reality day-to-day, I guess? I dunno, I'm not nearly a good enough writer myself to conceive of what I'm thinking in a way that's remotely compelling. Anybody here know of some stuff in this category? I'm sure something of quality had to have been written on the topic at some point.

Asexual characters, sure, but what would an asexual narrative even be?

I guess it depends on the definition of asexuality since I've heard various things. Not being physically attracted to people, not being attracted to people AT ALL, etc.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Not all asexual people are aromantic.

That said you could do a story about someone having to overcome the expectations of their family as an asexual person, or you could do a comedy like Saiki K where your lead goes about more and more elaborate plans to avoid the affections of those around them.

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






Citrus melodrama was amazing, as somebody who dislikes melodrama normally. The soap opera style pacing probably had something to do with that, as it kept people from brooding about one thing for too long.

I'm incredibly angry that I dismissed it based on hearsay and marketing as an incest series, when really it's just about two unrelated teenage girls having to start living together.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



Us asexuals are an ephemeral and mysterious people after all. It is impossible for our experiences to be translated into narrative, our stories just cannot be understood.

Anyway, I know I personally can relate to stories of someone navigating their sexuality while trying to deal with how they struggle to fit into perceived societal expectations of what is normal especially in regards to romantic relationships. For an “asexual narrative” you could probably just go off something like that with an end point of “hey, the idea that a romantic relationship is a necessary ingredient of human happiness is bullshit actually”.

Perpetual Motion
Aug 12, 2013


Cuntellectual posted:

Asexual characters, sure, but what would an asexual narrative even be?

I guess it depends on the definition of asexuality since I've heard various things. Not being physically attracted to people, not being attracted to people AT ALL, etc.

That's a part of the problem, but everything exists on a spectrum in some way, so picking a point and running with it is how just about everything else works. But yeah, one of the problems with asexuality vs other queer narratives is that the conflict and friction is very different and subtle. Ace people don't face discrimination in the same way, for one. A visible gay or trans person has to deal with open hostility in addition to the alienation that comes from living in a cis and heteronormative society. Asexuality, on the other hand, is discriminated against passively, but incredibly pervasively. Sexuality is baked into everything in modern life, and it's very wearing and tiring being presented with pressures to behave a certain way and share your life with certain people that the vast majority don't even notice because it's just normal background noise to them that compliments their nature. And unlike being gay, the LGB community at large is not a haven from this, as the same focus on finding and experiencing relationships with others in a fulfilling way is how LGB people self-actualize.

And that brings us to the biggest problem with creating a narrative with themes of asexuality: the self-actualization. The climax of most any queer narrative is the character(s) being able to accept themselves and their feelings and act upon them without fear or shame. What happens when an asexual person does that, though? Nothing. They realize that what they've been looking for is nothing at all and thus complete their arc without a change to the status quo, as they now realize that trying to change it because it's expected of you is wrong. It's a beautiful, important, and valid thing, but it doesn't exactly make for thrilling narrative, especially in visual mediums where the internal dialog isn't exposed to the audience.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it's very hard and that there's a relative lack of interest as asexuality is niche even within LGBTQ+ circles. That's why I was talking about stories with asexual characters where that part of their identity is simply important and a part of their struggles, even if it's not the centerpiece of the narrative.

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010


everythingWasBees posted:

Citrus melodrama was amazing, as somebody who dislikes melodrama normally. The soap opera style pacing probably had something to do with that, as it kept people from brooding about one thing for too long.

I'm incredibly angry that I dismissed it based on hearsay and marketing as an incest series, when really it's just about two unrelated teenage girls having to start living together.

The real problem with Citrus is that it didn't give more screen time to Matsuri and Harumi, the two best characters.

I didn't particularly like or dislike yuzu or mei.

SyntheticPolygon posted:

Us asexuals are an ephemeral and mysterious people after all. It is impossible for our experiences to be translated into narrative, our stories just cannot be understood.

Anyway, I know I personally can relate to stories of someone navigating their sexuality while trying to deal with how they struggle to fit into perceived societal expectations of what is normal especially in regards to romantic relationships. For an “asexual narrative” you could probably just go off something like that with an end point of “hey, the idea that a romantic relationship is a necessary ingredient of human happiness is bullshit actually”.

That doesn't strike me as a specifically asexual thing, but nevertheless could be interesting.

Personally I don't identify as anything-sexual because I do like cute anime girls and all but I've never felt attraction to anyone. :shrug:

Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Feb 5, 2020

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Oh you can definitely do it, you just need to invert the typical setup for the protagonist. Start them off in a relationship and over the course of the story they realize it's not necessary and doesn't make them happy.

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010


Perpetual Motion posted:

That's a part of the problem, but everything exists on a spectrum in some way, so picking a point and running with it is how just about everything else works. But yeah, one of the problems with asexuality vs other queer narratives is that the conflict and friction is very different and subtle. Ace people don't face discrimination in the same way, for one. A visible gay or trans person has to deal with open hostility in addition to the alienation that comes from living in a cis and heteronormative society. Asexuality, on the other hand, is discriminated against passively, but incredibly pervasively. Sexuality is baked into everything in modern life, and it's very wearing and tiring being presented with pressures to behave a certain way and share your life with certain people that the vast majority don't even notice because it's just normal background noise to them that compliments their nature. And unlike being gay, the LGB community at large is not a haven from this, as the same focus on finding and experiencing relationships with others in a fulfilling way is how LGB people self-actualize.

And that brings us to the biggest problem with creating a narrative with themes of asexuality: the self-actualization. The climax of most any queer narrative is the character(s) being able to accept themselves and their feelings and act upon them without fear or shame. What happens when an asexual person does that, though? Nothing. They realize that what they've been looking for is nothing at all and thus complete their arc without a change to the status quo, as they now realize that trying to change it because it's expected of you is wrong. It's a beautiful, important, and valid thing, but it doesn't exactly make for thrilling narrative, especially in visual mediums where the internal dialog isn't exposed to the audience.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it's very hard and that there's a relative lack of interest as asexuality is niche even within LGBTQ+ circles. That's why I was talking about stories with asexual characters where that part of their identity is simply important and a part of their struggles, even if it's not the centerpiece of the narrative.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying about passive discrimination. Just sexuality being part of modern life is discriminating against asexual people? I don't see how if so. Just because it's not something you're interested in doesn't mean it's discriminatory, does it?

Or did you mean more it was a sort of subconscious thing, as in people assuming you would want to be in a relationship and so on?

I know straight, gay, etc people who don't feel a need to be in a relationship or anything so it's not like it'd just be an asexual thing to say "you don't need to be with someone to be happy!". Do you think making a message broader like that, as opposed to strictly focused on asexuality, would take away from a theoretical story?


Nitrousoxide posted:

Oh you can definitely do it, you just need to invert the typical setup for the protagonist. Start them off in a relationship and over the course of the story they realize it's not necessary and doesn't make them happy.

Since as you said, 'not all asexual people are romantic', you could also do a romance story where it just went over the difficulty of one partner not really having a physical interest in the other but still wanting companionship.

That would probably be hard without making it weird ("I will fulfill my obligation of intimate companionship" or "aren't asexual relationships just so much more pure??") but I think it could be good if it was done right.

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




I really want to rewatch haibane renmai. I still listen to the ost. Who has it these days?

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



Cuntellectual posted:

The real problem with Citrus is that it didn't give more screen time to Matsuri and Harumi, the two best characters.

I didn't particularly like or dislike yuzu or mei.


That doesn't strike me as a specifically asexual thing, but nevertheless could be interesting.

Personally I don't identify as anything-sexual because I do like cute anime girls and all but I've never felt attraction to anyone. :shrug:

Maybe the story could end with the protagonist saying “and this is why Asexuality is cool and valid.” followed by thunderous applause to really hammer home this is about asexuality.

Maybe I should’ve specified the character in this hypothetical story would be asexual, but since we were talking about an asexual narrative I thought that was assumed.

Perpetual Motion
Aug 12, 2013


Cuntellectual posted:

I'm not sure I get what you're saying about passive discrimination. Just sexuality being part of modern life is discriminating against asexual people? I don't see how if so. Just because it's not something you're interested in doesn't mean it's discriminatory, does it?

Or did you mean more it was a sort of subconscious thing, as in people assuming you would want to be in a relationship and so on?

I know straight, gay, etc people who don't feel a need to be in a relationship or anything so it's not like it'd just be an asexual thing to say "you don't need to be with someone to be happy!". Do you think making a message broader like that, as opposed to strictly focused on asexuality, would take away from a theoretical story?

I guess "discrimination" is the wrong word. It's more of a... cognitive dissonance? I'm basing this off of my own experiences, so there's sure to be some holes in the logic, but in my experiences as an asexual person you become very, very aware of how attraction and desires are utilized in advertisements, media, everyday conversations, etc. And you just don't get it. For example, the Discord server I spend a lot of time in has a few people who will occasionally post romantic or sexy pieces of fan art and people will react very positively to them and I'm just left wondering what the appeal is. I can appreciate the aesthetics and craft, but not to the same degree as everyone else. You feel left out of something that brings happiness and joy to lots of people, and it's discouraging and damaging to self-esteem. And because it's all so normal to just about everyone else and is objectively harmless at worst and quite often actually affirming to people at best, you can't speak up or take any action aside from making self-deprecating jokes or going so far as to isolate yourself, neither of which are particularly healthy. It just sucks in a way that's nobody's fault and has no real solution. Of course the biggest gap in my experience is that I've always been an unappealing and anxious social disaster, so I never ended up in an obligatory feeling relationship that made me realize something was wrong. I don't even know if I'm aromantic or not because I've never had the opportunity to give it a shot.

As for just a general story about not needing romance to be happy, I think that it'd be wonderful if done right! I guess there's just always this selfish desire to experience a story that hits the nail on the head WRT my exact situation because of how validating and fulfilling it would be, but that's never a healthy or reasonable expectation in life.

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010


SyntheticPolygon posted:

Maybe the story could end with the protagonist saying “and this is why Asexuality is cool and valid.” followed by thunderous applause to really hammer home this is about asexuality.

Maybe I should’ve specified the character in this hypothetical story would be asexual, but since we were talking about an asexual narrative I thought that was assumed.

I, uh, picked up on that, yeah.

I was pointing out that it could still be relevant to a broader group, which could be a good or bad thing.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



Cuntellectual posted:

I, uh, picked up on that, yeah.

I was pointing out that it could still be relevant to a broader group, which could be a good or bad thing.

I know, I just thought pointing that out was rather silly.

I mean I also mentioned in that exact post how I can relate to stories about people dealing with their sexuality even though I’m ace. I think it’s pretty normal for stories to be relevant to varied experiences it’d be strange for a story not to be.

Perpetual Motion
Aug 12, 2013


SyntheticPolygon posted:

I know, I just thought pointing that out was rather silly.

I mean I also mentioned in that exact post how I can relate to stories about people dealing with their sexuality even though I’m ace. I think it’s pretty normal for stories to be relevant to varied experiences it’d be strange for a story not to be.

I'm sorry if I came across as saying stories that don't 100% match your experiences aren't relatable or enjoyable. I don't think that at all! I just feel like it'd just be nice to have something that did, is all. :shrug:

Just a selfish pipedream, really.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



Perpetual Motion posted:

I'm sorry if I came across as saying stories that don't 100% match your experiences aren't relatable or enjoyable. I don't think that at all! I just feel like it'd just be nice to have something that did, is all. :shrug:

Just a selfish pipedream, really.

Nah it’s cool. I just meant that even if there is a story that 100% matches your experiences other people can still relate to it. And im saying this as an asexual person who likes queer manga (even romances) because I often find them pretty relatable relatable even though they obviously don’t match my experiences at all.

I also agree that it can be pretty frustrating how media about asexuality is really rare (understandably so to an extent), though I do super appreciate when queer manga have asexual minor characters because sometimes it’s nice to be reminded people realise I exist.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



i didn't even know this thread existed

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Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



watch symphogear for my favorite lesbian couple in media

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