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esselfortium
Jul 19, 2006

Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

I watched Utena for the first time a few months ago and I was kind of surprised at how aggressively het it was for such an iconic Gay Show™. I enjoyed it generally, but it sure wasn't what I expected from everything I'd heard about it over the years.

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The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

everythingWasBees posted:

the real problem with that chart is none of the g-reco guys are in it

klim nick is woke

esselfortium posted:

I watched Utena for the first time a few months ago and I was kind of surprised at how aggressively het it was for such an iconic Gay Show™. I enjoyed it generally, but it sure wasn't what I expected from everything I'd heard about it over the years.

the gay stuff is honestly way stronger in the movie and, weirdly, the saturn game. though the het routes in the saturn game range from kinda funny to not great and there are more of them than gay routes, and while saionji's is funny it really doesn't work dramatically and the bonus anthy ending and most of juri's scenes are way funnier than anything in his route

half of juri's route is just her kicking your rear end at fighting games, it owns

The Colonel fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jan 28, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



esselfortium posted:

I watched Utena for the first time a few months ago and I was kind of surprised at how aggressively het it was for such an iconic Gay Show™. I enjoyed it generally, but it sure wasn't what I expected from everything I'd heard about it over the years.
i mean thats the point, the show's building up a society of heteronormativity that anthy and utena escape in the ending. but its def not what people sell it as

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Endorph posted:

also gotta say mocking stuff as 'slash ship teasing' and 'haha gay' sure isnt making me take your opinions on which anime are lgbt-friendly seriously

I like a lot of that stuff, but like I said wrt Rap Battle that I am trying to avoid it. It was a very easy thing for a while for otherwise unremarkable anime to just add some Kaworu looking dude and do the kinda-sorta-gay high schooler thing. Candidate for Goddess, the aforementioned Cross Edge, etc.

Also most of the gays I talk anime with are bara fans who think my faves are for teenage girls, so there's a certain amount of projecting here.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jan 28, 2020

esselfortium
Jul 19, 2006

Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

Candidate For Goddess was remarkable in how insanely bad it was

The Colonel posted:

the gay stuff is honestly way stronger in the movie and, weirdly, the saturn game. though the het routes in the saturn game range from kinda funny to not great and there are more of them than gay routes, and while saionji's is funny it really doesn't work dramatically and the bonus anthy ending and most of juri's scenes are way funnier than anything in his route

half of juri's route is just her kicking your rear end at fighting games, it owns

The movie was quite an experience, and yeah it was definitely played up more in there. I'm still just not really entirely sure what to make of Utena as a whole. I've read about it but I just didn't see a lot of the things in it that other people see.

The Colonel
Jun 8, 2013


I commute by bike!

i think utena is a decent show with a fun sense of humor and it's cool that the saturn game literally has an ending that's literally just the main character saying "being gay is good"

but probably did not save lesbians and isn't literally the only true queer anime in existence

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Oh wow candidate for goddess

Looking at it, I must have read like a random volume of this at some point but boy I remember nothing about it

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




The only thing i remember about candidate for goddess is the op

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


Is Candidate for Goddess that one god-awful show that was on Adult Swim as "Pilot Candidate" or whatever

e: yep, gently caress that show

Aoi-chan
Jul 28, 2003



Does anyone have opinions on Hourou Musuko/Wandering Son?

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008



I like Angel Sanctuary.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Aoi-chan posted:

Does anyone have opinions on Hourou Musuko/Wandering Son?
i can appreciate some of what its going for but its really bland and 101-y. none of the characters really felt that genuine to me

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



Aoi-chan posted:

Does anyone have opinions on Hourou Musuko/Wandering Son?

I personally enjoyed it, especially early on, but it definitely felt like the author was getting tired of it after a while- the quality of the art got a lot more simpler, which can be an issue with multiple characters looking somewhat similar to each other, the plot begins to spin towards the end, and then it wraps up rather hastily. The anime is kind of weird because it doesn't even start at the beginning of the story and winds up just being a small intersection of the whole manga, but it has a lovely watercolor artstyle and has a lot of emotionally satisfying scenes. I would probably recommend watching the anime first, and then if you're craving more to read the manga, and maybe just tap out if you get bored of it/skip to the end.

Talkc
Aug 2, 2010

Mizuki! Mizuki! Mizuki!
***DEVASTATINGLY HANDSOME***

So i have a love/hate/hate/hate affair with anime and lgbt stuff. I think the only like solid queer tv animes ive seen are No.6 and Given? And maybe cause im too tired of really god awful anime to find anything else? Mind you, its what ive seen. Im sure theres more but... like most seem to really solidly misrepresent or just create a lot of weirdness around the issue of queer characters.

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






Talkc posted:

So i have a love/hate/hate/hate affair with anime and lgbt stuff. I think the only like solid queer tv animes ive seen are No.6 and Given? And maybe cause im too tired of really god awful anime to find anything else? Mind you, its what ive seen. Im sure theres more but... like most seem to really solidly misrepresent or just create a lot of weirdness around the issue of queer characters.

watch akanesasu shoujo

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


starting to get the impression that people mistake the thread title as a suggestion and not an order

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



it's still a small enough "genre" in terms of representation in all of anime, though the bounds expand/contract based on how much is enough to qualify for subjective inclusion and sometimes other factors like genre (e.g. not pure romance). manga has always seemed like the better avenue to pursue if you're wanting more quality material, since you don't have to hit the overlap in venn diagram of a series being long/big enough to adapt and getting an adaptation. specific to BL, there's studio grizzly but a single, small studio can only do so much. not that a bl-only studio is even guaranteed to always make things the same person would like.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Talkc posted:

So i have a love/hate/hate/hate affair with anime and lgbt stuff. I think the only like solid queer tv animes ive seen are No.6 and Given? And maybe cause im too tired of really god awful anime to find anything else? Mind you, its what ive seen. Im sure theres more but... like most seem to really solidly misrepresent or just create a lot of weirdness around the issue of queer characters.
tv anime has good stuff but it obviously requires more money and time to make an anime so less marketable stuff tends to get made less. bloom into you is a solid tv series though the most interesting parts are in the manga material that the anime didn't get around to adapting. if you want a much broader view of it then, yeah, you'll probably wanna go the manga route, though there's still anime that's decent on this stuff that isnt even necessarily focused on it. zombieland saga is a random comedy anime that has a trans character who gets a decent focus ep but it isn't really about the issues or anything.

idk there's plenty of decent stuff like this out there even if you do stick to anime, you just aren't likely to find it in like, insanely mainstream shonen or w/e. i wouldnt really say 'most misrepresent it/create a lot of weirdness around it', tbh in my experience its like, one of the better mediums about this stuff, though obviously thats hard to rank.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Talkc posted:

So i have a love/hate/hate/hate affair with anime and lgbt stuff. I think the only like solid queer tv animes ive seen are No.6 and Given? And maybe cause im too tired of really god awful anime to find anything else? Mind you, its what ive seen. Im sure theres more but... like most seem to really solidly misrepresent or just create a lot of weirdness around the issue of queer characters.

In terms of mainstreamish anime I remember watching a show called Love stage (something like that), it was a quirky romance comedy with bits of drama about two male actors falling love. As a show I remember it being a bit average, side characters were one note and often annoying, though the main couple did get together in a relationship before the show ended and had some nice moments about how to make a same sex relationship work. Nothing stood out to me as problematic, but it has been a few years.

That's really it for the more mainstream non porn stuff I can think of. I know there are some more examples including the other suggestions, but yeah its still a niche area.

Well, Netflix had a series called Goku dolls, which I watched in its entirety out of sheer confusion, I still don't know what to think about it, but that's pretty mainstream for better or worse.

Baka-nin fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jan 30, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Love Stage starts off with a feminine looking young boy being used as a stand-in for a girl in what becomes (in universe) an iconic TV commercial, and the other boy never realizing it and growing up wishing to meet the girl from that day. Which is to say that the show initially starts off around a gender reveal and engages in a fair amount of laughs that people particularly sensitive to trans microaggressions won't take well to. After realizing our effeminate protag is a guy, the other dude has a crisis of sexuality for a little bit and then decides that it doesn't matter and persues a relationship with him anyway. Their relationship has a small amount of the "you know he truly loves you because he doesn't respect your refusal of consent" stuff that mainstream yaoi usually does.

I can only speak to wokeness as an outsider because I'm not as good of a trans ally as some other people are, but I can see some people being offended. You have to accept that this stuff is made for Japanese women who are often in toxic relationships with men who display misogynistic behaviors. It sucks for actual gays to see all this rape, but the intended audience is so is accustomed to a culture of men raping women, that men raping other men seems logical. If you're okay with things being 'problematic' sometimes, you'll be fine.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



yeah i was gonna say i had vague memories of love stage being taken to task at time of airing for how it engaged with some BL assault tropes. entirely possible for series to do that stuff and still turn things around but having not seen it i can't speak to that.

Craptacular! posted:

You have to accept that this stuff is made for Japanese women who are often in toxic relationships with men who display misogynistic behaviors. It sucks for actual gays to see all this rape, but the intended audience is so is accustomed to a culture of men raping women, that men raping other men seems logical. If you're okay with things being 'problematic' sometimes, you'll be fine.

this feels like an intensely weird implications to make though

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



look i dont think you're coming from a bad place or anything but

1) 'You have to accept that this stuff is made for Japanese women who are often in toxic relationships with men who display misogynistic behaviors.' what???? a lot of the women who like bl are lesbians and even the ones who aren't are usually using bl to explore their own sexuality, they aren't just accepting it blandly as common fact. the point of having stuff like that isn't 'wow, this is what normal romantic relationships are like!' it's because they're attracted to the idea of a taboo, passionate relationship.

2) you're really overselling the amount of times this stuff actually comes up in BL, especially more recently made stuff, as well as how its possible to handle it well or handle it poorly.

3) 'the intended audience is so is accustomed to a culture of men raping women, that men raping other men seems logical.' this is just straightup racist lol. japanese women, they see rape as logical! thats how misogynistic japan is!

4) 'gays'

5) there are gay men who are into this stuff too, the topic's way more nuanced then you're giving it credit for.

6) again, love stage is based off a manga from a decade ago by an author who's been working in the genre for twenty, a lot of more modern stuff is pretty far beyond those tropes. they obviously still crop up but I wouldn't take them as representative as all mainstream bl or anything. 'all this rape' is a pretty strong mischaracterization.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



like the core point of 'a lot of bl IS made for women so there's sometimes a voyeuristic element to it' isn't wrong at all but the way you got there was pretty hosed up.

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






Craptacular! posted:

I can only speak to wokeness as an outsider because I'm not as good of a trans ally as some other people are, but I can see some people being offended. You have to accept that this stuff is made for Japanese women who are often in toxic relationships with men who display misogynistic behaviors. It sucks for actual gays to see all this rape, but the intended audience is so is accustomed to a culture of men raping women, that men raping other men seems logical. If you're okay with things being 'problematic' sometimes, you'll be fine.

As a trans ally, I'm going to be incredibly racist and claim an entire culture's het relationships are based around rape?? What??

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






allies are banned from this thread now im sorry i don't make the rules

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






you can earn your posting privileges back by reading jealousy by scarlet beriko

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



everythingWasBees posted:

allies are banned from this thread now im sorry i don't make the rules
A) you literally do
B) should have been this way from the thought imo.

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






Endorph posted:

A) you literally do
B) should have been this way from the thought imo.

it was a joke i know i make the rules!
might legit ask julias and wark to officially ban allyposting
i kinda assumed it wouldn't happen

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






they already have the shoujo thread...

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


we need to stop them gaining a foothold now, or they will start talking about the loud couple manga in here as well

ai girlfriend
Jan 1, 2020



Aoi-chan posted:

Does anyone have opinions on Hourou Musuko/Wandering Son?

I read wandering son not very long after going through a lot of the stuff it in it and it felt like it was written by someone clueless about how any of it actually feels. That's just my experience though and I know at least a few people who really like it.

an actual dog
Nov 18, 2014



there is a depressing history of gay teens looking for something with gay men and finding bad BL. my boyfriend's fist kiss was with a guy who wanted to watch junjo romantica with him

BL is getting better tho which is good for everyone

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






an actual dog posted:

there is a depressing history of gay teens looking for something with gay men and finding bad BL. my boyfriend's fist kiss was with a guy who wanted to watch junjo romantica with him

BL is getting better tho which is good for everyone

back when i still identified as male, my first exposure to any sort of gay material was loving loveless
which, like, did eventually result in me realizing i was bi but...

an actual dog
Nov 18, 2014



catboys are dangerous!!!

GorfZaplen
Jan 20, 2012



Craptacular! posted:

Love Stage starts off with a feminine looking young boy being used as a stand-in for a girl in what becomes (in universe) an iconic TV commercial, and the other boy never realizing it and growing up wishing to meet the girl from that day. Which is to say that the show initially starts off around a gender reveal and engages in a fair amount of laughs that people particularly sensitive to trans microaggressions won't take well to. After realizing our effeminate protag is a guy, the other dude has a crisis of sexuality for a little bit and then decides that it doesn't matter and persues a relationship with him anyway. Their relationship has a small amount of the "you know he truly loves you because he doesn't respect your refusal of consent" stuff that mainstream yaoi usually does.

I can only speak to wokeness as an outsider because I'm not as good of a trans ally as some other people are, but I can see some people being offended. You have to accept that this stuff is made for Japanese women who are often in toxic relationships with men who display misogynistic behaviors. It sucks for actual gays to see all this rape, but the intended audience is so is accustomed to a culture of men raping women, that men raping other men seems logical. If you're okay with things being 'problematic' sometimes, you'll be fine.

Read Jealousy by Scarlet Beriko op

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




how many trans bee people are there on this drat site

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

how many trans bee people are there on this drat site

there's even another but i think she got perma'd

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






she might not have been trans tho but im p sure she was?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



everythingWasBees posted:

back when i still identified as male, my first exposure to any sort of gay material was loving loveless
which, like, did eventually result in me realizing i was bi but...
loveless is good because it gave us akuma no riddle, the wokest manga ever created

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Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

how many trans bee people are there on this drat site

don't speak to this poster, they are a pooh bear after the honey

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