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PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

I burned through magical trans after seeing all the talk about it. There are some problematic bits, but overall I'm enjoying it a lot. also Opon is adorable no matter what anyone else says :colbert:

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Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


I... don't know what my deal is. I thought for the longest time I was bi since I've been in relationships with both men and women for all of my adult life, but after a number of things happened throughout these past 3 years in my personal life, I don't think I feel comfortable with things like saying "Oh, I'm like this". Like at some point I'm going to have to sit down and ask this to myself and like figure something out, but coming from a background where I used to get called "marica/maricon" (which are among the meanest homophobic slurs someone can drop on you at least down here in México) on a regular basis for most of his adolescence and part of his adulthood, I'd rather take my time. The one thing I'm sure as poo poo, though, is that I'm not straight.

A few things:
  • A couple of goons (mostly Burrito and i think Bees too?) have been sharing a bunch of LGBT comics with me via discord on the reg. Both know their poo poo real well (especially if they have tsundere characters, which I'm a sucker for)
  • I tend to like stories which are arts-driven (even though I failed to include it in my "Best of 2019", I absolutely loved Given), mostly due to the fact that one of the ways I earn money is arranging/composing/recording music via these badass babies.

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


Wark Say posted:

A few things:
  • A couple of goons (mostly Burrito and i think Bees too?) have been sharing a bunch of LGBT comics with me via discord on the reg. Both know their poo poo real well (especially if they have tsundere characters, which I'm a sucker for)
  • I tend to like stories which are arts-driven (even though I failed to include it in my "Best of 2019", I absolutely loved Given), mostly due to the fact that one of the ways I earn money is arranging/composing/recording music via these badass babies.

Have you read After Hours? It's a shortish (3-volume) yuri manga series about a woman who meets a DJ and gets introduced to the world of music.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



I know what you are Wark

A really cool person

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010


Wark Say posted:

I... don't know what my deal is. I thought for the longest time I was bi since I've been in relationships with both men and women for all of my adult life, but after a number of things happened throughout these past 3 years in my personal life, I don't think I feel comfortable with things like saying "Oh, I'm like this". Like at some point I'm going to have to sit down and ask this to myself and like figure something out, but coming from a background where I used to get called "marica/maricon" (which are among the meanest homophobic slurs someone can drop on you at least down here in México) on a regular basis for most of his adolescence and part of his adulthood, I'd rather take my time. The one thing I'm sure as poo poo, though, is that I'm not straight.

A few things:
  • A couple of goons (mostly Burrito and i think Bees too?) have been sharing a bunch of LGBT comics with me via discord on the reg. Both know their poo poo real well (especially if they have tsundere characters, which I'm a sucker for)
  • I tend to like stories which are arts-driven (even though I failed to include it in my "Best of 2019", I absolutely loved Given), mostly due to the fact that one of the ways I earn money is arranging/composing/recording music via these badass babies.

Honestly, labels are overrated. Just be attracted to who you want to be, or nobody.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




I definitely understand how Wark feels, and honestly I've always wondered about that sort of thing myself.

Like, for most of my life I identified as 'straight' but in like the last few years that's changed pretty hard but at the same time, I don't feel particularly bi either? It feels like I can't comfortably describe where my likes and dislikes fall on any spectrum beyond the individual person and a handful of attributes. Is there a good term for that feeling? Cuz like, honestly it's confusing af. Like even now I'm second guessing posting because I'm not sure if that's good enough.

Stalin-Chan
Feb 11, 2009


Endorph posted:

the bride was a boy, yeah, though its mostly about the author's marriage. both her parents and her husband's parents are supportive so it isn't exactly an acerbic takedown of a transphobic society but it gets into a lot of the legal issues in japan, so it's worth a read if you want more info on that.

I've actually read that one, I liked it but it did feel like it was more aimed at teaching cis people about being trans.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Give "I was born in the wrong sex" a read

Everything Burrito
Jun 2, 2011



tapas recently added a LGBTQ+ genre tag
they publish western webtoons and webnovels + some translated Korean ones

Arianya
Nov 3, 2009



Cuntellectual posted:

I still don't know how I feel about that.

Did the MC ever actually indicates he (she?) is actually interested in staying female or just liked dressing up in fetish outfits as a woman?


I missed this post initially, sorry! I was considering how to respond to this but I think this poster put it best:

PhysicsFrenzy posted:

I burned through magical trans after seeing all the talk about it. There are some problematic bits, but overall I'm enjoying it a lot. also Opon is adorable no matter what anyone else says :colbert:

It's definitely not *ideal* but it's definitely enjoyable and still a country mile better then the majority of manga/anime that touches on gender issues, IMO. Which is setting a low bar, but y'know.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


Thanks for the words. :) It was really loving hard to post here because, again, I'm kinda figuring things out as I go which, normally while doing jams/code/etc I feel like I can roll with those punches a bit more easily.


Thuryl posted:

Have you read After Hours? It's a shortish (3-volume) yuri manga series about a woman who meets a DJ and gets introduced to the world of music.
I have not! And it looks right up my alley! Thanks.

I Am Fowl
Mar 8, 2008

nononononono


Wark Say posted:

I... don't know what my deal is. I thought for the longest time I was bi since I've been in relationships with both men and women for all of my adult life, but after a number of things happened throughout these past 3 years in my personal life, I don't think I feel comfortable with things like saying "Oh, I'm like this". Like at some point I'm going to have to sit down and ask this to myself and like figure something out, but coming from a background where I used to get called "marica/maricon" (which are among the meanest homophobic slurs someone can drop on you at least down here in México) on a regular basis for most of his adolescence and part of his adulthood, I'd rather take my time. The one thing I'm sure as poo poo, though, is that I'm not straight.

A few things:
  • A couple of goons (mostly Burrito and i think Bees too?) have been sharing a bunch of LGBT comics with me via discord on the reg. Both know their poo poo real well (especially if they have tsundere characters, which I'm a sucker for)
  • I tend to like stories which are arts-driven (even though I failed to include it in my "Best of 2019", I absolutely loved Given), mostly due to the fact that one of the ways I earn money is arranging/composing/recording music via these badass babies.

That's why I go with "queer"; I find it to be a nice catch-all.

(by the way, I'm a queer enby)

blossommirage
Nov 7, 2012



Queer is weird because it is technically a slur, but it's also the easiest word to describe LGBT+ stuff. I don't feel comfortable when non queer people say it, so I try not to use it so I don't subtly 'encourage' it? I guess? Does that make sense?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



i personally dont like 'queer' at all but if someone else wants to use it i dont care so long as they aren't acting like its like, the most 'progressive' word to say if that makes sense

lots of 'people who say queer are proud rebels, people who say gay are cowards' type posts ive seen, over the years

plus it kinda bugs me that people sometimes use 'queer' to describe something that's very much just, one thing. like yuri manga with no trans characters getting called 'queer' feels off to me.

blossommirage
Nov 7, 2012



Endorph posted:

i personally dont like 'queer' at all but if someone else wants to use it i dont care so long as they aren't acting like its like, the most 'progressive' word to say if that makes sense

lots of 'people who say queer are proud rebels, people who say gay are cowards' type posts ive seen, over the years

plus it kinda bugs me that people sometimes use 'queer' to describe something that's very much just, one thing. like yuri manga with no trans characters getting called 'queer' feels off to me.

I see where you're coming from. I usually just call it That Gay poo poo™ and people tend to get it, but I'm sure I've described Kase-san as a queer manga before too.

RottenK
Feb 17, 2011

Sexy bad choices

FAILED NOJOE

i thought that "queer" was a universal slur agaisnt all lgbt people, wouldn't a reclaimed version of it also work for any part of the gender/sexuality spectrum?

i dont use it myself so no idea

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



RottenK posted:

i thought that "queer" was a universal slur agaisnt all lgbt people, wouldn't a reclaimed version of it also work for any part of the gender/sexuality spectrum?

i dont use it myself so no idea
it would but thats my issue, its imprecise. if something is specific then calling it by a nonspecific term feels weird to me. like if something is exclusively concerned with lesbianism, how lesbians feel, what lesbians experience, calling it 'queer' is inaccurate. itd be like if someone made a movie about the specific challenges vietnamese-americans face and people went on about 'PoC representation' or whatever. like its not *wrong* but its about a specific thing, you know

skaianDestiny
Jan 13, 2017

beep boop


RottenK posted:

i thought that "queer" was a universal slur agaisnt all lgbt people, wouldn't a reclaimed version of it also work for any part of the gender/sexuality spectrum?

i dont use it myself so no idea

Queer has been reclaimed for decades. The slogan "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" has been used since the 90's by LGBT activists.

The whole "queer is a slur" thing has been mostly a false flag by TERFs who want to divide the community, with a lot of younger LGBTQIA teens parroting the rhetoric without knowing their history.

skaianDestiny fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Feb 2, 2020

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






I use queer a lot to refer to myself but like "smear the queer" is still a game that is played to this day. I know a lot of people in their twenties who were called that before being beaten up. nowadays people just use human being, but like acting like it hasn't been used as a slur relatively recently is just false.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



skaianDestiny posted:

Queer has been reclaimed for decades. The slogan "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" has been used since the 90's by LGBT activists.

The whole "queer is a slur" thing has been mostly a false flag by TERFs who want to divide the community, with a lot of younger LGBTQIA teens parroting the rhetoric without knowing their history.
people being uncomfortable with a term isn't a 'false flag by TERFs'

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



i don't think that post is at all saying people uncomfortable with the term don't exist

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



dogsicle posted:

i don't think that post is at all saying people uncomfortable with the term don't exist

it 100% is

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






dogsicle posted:

i don't think that post is at all saying people uncomfortable with the term don't exist

I'm not sure how else to read it

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


Reposting from the other chat thread:

Julias posted:

Hey guys! For Black History Month the TGRS forum is doing a charity drive for the Transwomen of Color Collective, a nonprofit group run by and for Transwomen. They have a fund that helps women get off the street or help them escape abusive situations. If you would like to help donate and show solidarity with fellow goons, you can post about it here:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3913138

PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

everythingWasBees posted:

I use queer a lot to refer to myself but like "smear the queer" is still a game that is played to this day. I know a lot of people in their twenties who were called that before being beaten up. nowadays people just use human being, but like acting like it hasn't been used as a slur relatively recently is just false.

Yeah, I was born in the 90s and queer was definitely thrown around as a slur when I was younger. I haven't seen it used that way recently, which is great! But people still being uncomfortable with the term today isn't part of some grand TERF conspiracy.

skaianDestiny
Jan 13, 2017

beep boop


Endorph posted:

people being uncomfortable with a term isn't a 'false flag by TERFs'

everythingWasBees posted:

I use queer a lot to refer to myself but like "smear the queer" is still a game that is played to this day. I know a lot of people in their twenties who were called that before being beaten up. nowadays people just use human being, but like acting like it hasn't been used as a slur relatively recently is just false.

If you don't want to use queer, then I entirely respect it, the same way some people wouldn't want to use the label "gay" or whatever because of their own circumstances.

I'm specifically referring to "queer is a slur and nobody should use it, because I said so" rhetoric, which has been bandied about by proven TERF accounts, similar to the hate against asexual people. Like all reclaimed slurs, usage of the term is not universal, and I'm not demanding it should be, but a lot of my friends needed the term queer in relation to their own identities. Thus I'm not a fan of anyone who wants to blanket-ban the term queer, especially when they turn out to be transphobic.


everythingWasBees posted:

I'm not sure how else to read it

Endorph posted:

it 100% is

Again, I'm not trying to insinuate that or force anyone to use it, and I'm sorry if it came across as that. I just wanted to point out that queer has been reclaimed for a long while by LGBT+ people, and that a lot of the pushback I've personally seen was done by TERFs.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



has anyone in here suggested a ban or even expressed disapproval of people using it

PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

skaianDestiny posted:

If you don't want to use queer, then I entirely respect it, the same way some people wouldn't want to use the label "gay" or whatever because of their own circumstances.

I'm specifically referring to "queer is a slur and nobody should use it, because I said so" rhetoric, which has been bandied about by proven TERF accounts, similar to the hate against asexual people. Like all reclaimed slurs, usage of the term is not universal, and I'm not demanding it should be, but a lot of my friends needed the term queer in relation to their own identities. Thus I'm not a fan of anyone who wants to blanket-ban the term queer, especially when they turn out to be transphobic.



Again, I'm not trying to insinuate that or force anyone to use it, and I'm sorry if it came across as that. I just wanted to point out that queer has been reclaimed for a long while by LGBT+ people, and that a lot of the pushback I've personally seen was done by TERFs.

That's totally fair, and I wasn't aware of the TERF bullshit surrounding the term. I don't think anyone here wants to blanket ban the term (especially with people identifying with the term right down the page!)

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



thanks for clarifying

i think the designation of whether queer is a slur or not is kind of a strange battleground that's ancillary to the emotional affects (positive/negative) the word has on people, but that degree of separation and ambiguity is probably why it would be chosen for poo poo-stirring. especially when simply stating your thoughts on a side of the issue can results in unfavorable implications being read into it.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



yeah sorry if i seemed jumpy i just legit have been called a terf due solely to expressing my discomfort/misgivings

imo while terfs obviously exist i think people oversell the 'terfs manipulating the datastream' stuff and a lot of the stuff people attribute that to really is just people expressing sincere misgivings

esselfortium
Jul 19, 2006

Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

growing up in the 90s and early 2000s, i almost never heard the word queer used, but "gay" was the inescapable derogative du jour for absolutely anything anyone thought was stupid or bad or Too Girly

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






esselfortium posted:

growing up in the 90s and early 2000s, i almost never heard the word queer used, but "gay" was the inescapable derogative du jour for absolutely anything anyone thought was stupid or bad or Too Girly

yeah p much

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



my experience was kids said gay and adults said queer

esselfortium
Jul 19, 2006

Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

mmm, i guess it was a generational thing then.

Nondevor
Jun 1, 2011





catposting


I’ve been struggling to post in this thread because of feeling some major imposter syndrome (despite definitely being not cis/straight at all), but seeing stuff like Wark’s post & the current discussion has encouraged me to at least try? Sorry if it’s too disjointed.

Personally, I’ve been mentally referring to myself as ‘queer’ as a whole because it seems to fit the best with my individual experience – which is currently a blurry haze of “ok. how the heck do I even begin to conceptualize all these complicated feelings about my identity?” Like I know I’m ace for sure, but then in regards to gender… it’s a flip between generally being fine with how I naturally present, versus the times I’m violently wishing that I could just ascend to another plane of existence and rid myself from the concept of gender entirely. So yeah, the non-specificity of ‘queer’ is a comfort to me while I’m trying to work through all of this. That's just for my own case though, and I try to use more specific terms for other situations where they're more easily applicable. And speaking of specificity:

I’m sure there are more established (appropriate?) terms to better describe my feelings and situation than 'queer', but that’s where my lack of experience discussing LGBT+ stuff with other people comes into play -- sometimes, I don't really know what those terms would be? It's like, I try to read what I can to try to learn about all these different perspectives, what terminology is used where, and whatever else... but I just don't have the proper background knowledge & not that many resources to turn to. Being comfortable acknowledging the vagueness regarding myself mentally is quite different from – y’know, trying to provide or elaborate on nuanced takes, on demand, in conversation when it feels like I only have the most basic of tools. Especially when it’s a matter dearly personal to a lot of people’s hearts and where it’s so easy to be misunderstood. A lot of the time, it just feels like I'm constantly behind the curve -- e.g. the discussion right now about the usage of 'queer'. I always thought of it as one of those empowering reclaimed terms (obv when used in a friendly context) while not being aware of the greater ambivalence surrounding it.

Hence, leading to imposter syndrome. My responses are probably too clumsy for discussing this topic (thanks perpetual anxiety and foot-in-mouth tendencies), and I don’t want to hurt people unintentionally :(

But... being able to write stuff like this down does help a tiny bit though, at least in terms of clearing up these thoughts for myself. Hopefully. I just wish I knew how to conceptualize all of this better with the proper frameworks. Which is why I highly appreciate the discussion that’s been going on in the past page or two – it’s some more food for thought for me.





p.s. anime is cool

blossommirage
Nov 7, 2012



Nondevor posted:

p.s. anime is cool

IDK, anime is pretty gay imho.

Nondevor
Jun 1, 2011





catposting


since being gay is cool
anime = cool; anime = gay

the math looks right to me

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010


FWIW growing up I definitely remember people using queer as an insult.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


Hey. Nondevor.

You rock buddy. :glomp:

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DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013


GorfZaplen posted:

Jealousy by Scarlet Beriko

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