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wheres my beer
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

thanks for reminding me i wanted a t91 upper

edit: has brownells fixed the brn-180 yet?

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timn
Mar 16, 2010


A.o.D. posted:

The only thing AR system about this gun is the lower and the rear charging handle (i.e. the manual of arms). In every other respect it's a brand new gun.

We could play ship of Theseus all day, but saying that the only thing that's still the AR platform is everything besides the new thing is kind of redundant.

Not that it matters because the point I wanted to make is the same sentiment as yours. This upper further blurs the line between what's still an AR by convention and what's really a separate breed of custom lego gun. Some really cool things could happen if this kind of idea takes off in popularity.

mischief
Jun 3, 2003


Captain Log posted:

Or just keep everything.



This is the way.

AKZ
Nov 4, 2009


Captain Log posted:

When people talk about 9mm PCC recoil being unpleasant, what’s a good comparison? I grew up shooting magnum three inch 12 gauge shot shells and 45-70 out of a carbine. I can’t picture how 9mm could be bad in any platform.

Agreed.

wheres my beer
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

mischief posted:

This is the way.

mischief
Jun 3, 2003


I don't think the complaint is painful recoil, it's that the rifle moves differently.

The recoil impulse is more similar to something like an AK with the higher amount of reciprocating weight. The rifle tends to kinda dive up and down as the mass moves.
I've shot a poo poo ton of 9mm AR's and never experienced one that was physically uncomfortable.

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.


Craptacular posted:

How would you define what's an AR15 and what's not? You could go with the really strict definition as a rifle manufactured by Colt, which is semi- or full-auto, magazine-fed, direct impingement, and chambered in .223/5.56mm, and literally has "AR15" engraved on the side of it, but I think we can all agree that's a bit much. Arguably, any of those requirements are not essential. Consider the following:

  • Any rifle not made by Colt.
  • The Troy PAR pump action (not semi-auto).
  • Rifles with .50 BMG uppers, which are usually single-shot (not semi-auto)
  • Rifles using the Fightlite MCR, Freedom Ordnance FM-9, and Lakeside Machine LM7 beltfed uppers in 5.56mm, 9mm and .22LR, respectively. (not magazine-fed. Well, the MCR can take mags too, but you get my point.)
  • The HK416, Wolf T91 or any number of other rifles. (not DI, use either short- or long-stroke gas pistons)
  • The SIG MCX, Brownells BRN180, or any number of other rifles. (uppers don't use a "normal" receiver extension)
  • The Fightlite SCR (doesn't have a normal receiver extension, and has the hammer pin in the "wrong" place)
  • PCCs chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, .22LR or any number of other cartridges. (not chambered for 5.56mm)
  • The Colt SP1. (has the "wrong" diameter large takedown pins, and wrong diameter hammer/trigger pins)
  • AR15 pistols. (aren't rifles) Yes, I realize that I'm using "AR15" in the definition of "AR15". You know what I mean.

I would argue all of those are AR15's. Personally, the definition I'd go with would be a really broad one that would define an AR15 as firearm with a split upper and lower receiver which has front and rear takedown pins in the standard location that's compatible with a legit Colt AR15. But even then, there's probably a firearm which wouldn't even fit that definition which could probably be argued is an "AR15."

Eh, I'm not going to try an change anyone's mind about what is and isn't an AR-15, but to me, the most relevant features on what makes a firearm the same class as another are the load bearing and operating parts. If you care more about the furniture, form factor, manual of arms and accessory compatibility, that's fine.

ilkhan
Oct 7, 2004

Life Before Death
Strength Before Weakness
Journey Before Destination


Miso Beno posted:


I'm kinda super excited about their roller delay ar upper. I really hope they can pull it off for a reasonable price.
I... drat that could be awesome. Probably packaged in its own upper, can't use my side charger upper with it.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

My 9mm AR is a dream to shoot... well, at least until it blew up

It probably had a "meatier" impulse but the recoil isn't way worse that I can recall. My WWSD with a brake is easier to control but has a huge concussion wave if you're not directly behind it, while some of the others have a sharper kick though probably not as strong

Also:


mischief posted:

This is the way.

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEYxID98tVA

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED




Roller delay thing looks interesting but I'm like 70% of the way to a Colt blowback build now so welp

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Craptacular posted:

How would you define what's an AR15 and what's not? You could go with the really strict definition as a rifle manufactured by Colt, which is semi- or full-auto, magazine-fed, direct impingement, and chambered in .223/5.56mm, and literally has "AR15" engraved on the side of it, but I think we can all agree that's a bit much. Arguably, any of those requirements are not essential. Consider the following:

  • Any rifle not made by Colt.
  • The Troy PAR pump action (not semi-auto).
  • Rifles with .50 BMG uppers, which are usually single-shot (not semi-auto)
  • Rifles using the Fightlite MCR, Freedom Ordnance FM-9, and Lakeside Machine LM7 beltfed uppers in 5.56mm, 9mm and .22LR, respectively. (not magazine-fed. Well, the MCR can take mags too, but you get my point.)
  • The HK416, Wolf T91 or any number of other rifles. (not DI, use either short- or long-stroke gas pistons)
  • The SIG MCX, Brownells BRN180, or any number of other rifles. (uppers don't use a "normal" receiver extension)
  • The Fightlite SCR (doesn't have a normal receiver extension, and has the hammer pin in the "wrong" place)
  • PCCs chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, .22LR or any number of other cartridges. (not chambered for 5.56mm)
  • The Colt SP1. (has the "wrong" diameter large takedown pins, and wrong diameter hammer/trigger pins)
  • AR15 pistols. (aren't rifles) Yes, I realize that I'm using "AR15" in the definition of "AR15". You know what I mean.

I would argue all of those are AR15's. Personally, the definition I'd go with would be a really broad one that would define an AR15 as firearm with a split upper and lower receiver which has front and rear takedown pins in the standard location that's compatible with a legit Colt AR15. But even then, there's probably a firearm which wouldn't even fit that definition which could probably be argued is an "AR15."

I dunno, my definition of AR15, emphasis on 15 is pretty short:

* semi-auto
* The charging handle we all know and love.
* Cycling the weapon after pulling the trigger involves a gas tap on the barrel, whether that goes to a piston or a gas tube, not in my purview.
* Buffer tube stock.
* probably most importantly for an AR15: eats 5.56mm/.223. 7.62mm would be an AR10. Anything not under those two broad categories is just "AR".

To the point that a side-charging AR might still be an AR, I agree but only under extreme duress: The only sensible reason that I give for a side-charging AR is if you need a cheekweld higher and closer to the receiver than the T-handle can accomodate. I'm not going to speculate on what that reason might be, but I allow that it is a situation that may exist, as obviously, the space that the T-handle takes up when fully drawn back is a place that must stay clear and therefore limits the height of the stock. Hell, I still don't like it, because operating the action requires a few behaviors I find questionable:

1) taking your trigger hand off the trigger
2) Reaching over with your other hand
3) Shelling out for a left-hand charging side charger

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jan 31, 2020

jwang
Mar 31, 2013


It's me, I shelled out for a JP side-charging upper. (I don't regret it, it's super fun)

wheres my beer
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

All fully semi autos are AR-15s, all fully auto military grade assault weapons are AK-47s.

Hth.

Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

AR15s are like Pornography: I can't define what it is, but I know it when I see it.

I have a low tolerance for pedantry, so I just say if it's built on an AR15 lower receiver, it's an AR15. Yes, even that crossbow thing. Yes, even the singe shot 50BMG uppers. Yes, even a SIG MCX upper with the stock adapter.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



But what's an "AR15 lower"? Is a PCC lower which doesn't have a STANAG magwell an AR15? Is a SIG MCX or BRN-180 lower which doesn't have a hole for a receiver extension/buffer tube an AR15? Is a Fightlite SCR lower which doesn't use a normal receiver extension an AR15?

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


If it can take any 2 standard AR components then its an AR . 1913 rail stuff not withstanding. STANAG mag not withstanding either.

Dr. Gojo Shioji
Apr 22, 2004



I thought one of the really defining characteristics of the AR platform was the barrel/barrel extension and its interface with the receiver (compared to the trunnion/threading/pinning/aligning steps needed on other rifles). I could be misunderstanding that, though.

jwang
Mar 31, 2013


My qualifications for ARs are:

1. Does it use an AR fire control group
2. Does it use AR furniture (pistol grip, handguard, buttstock/buffer tube)
3. Does it use an AR upper (or put in another way, can the upper receiver fit on another AR lower, even if it doesn't function properly)

The most important is #1, since you can make a R700 on an MDT chassis and use pretty much entirely AR furniture. However, in that case it would be a Remington 700 rifle with AR furniture, not an AR styled in the fashion of a Remington 700.

stgdz
Nov 3, 2006

158 grains of smiley powered justice

Looks like Remington shut down Bushmaster and dpms.

ZebraBlade
Mar 26, 2010

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

stgdz posted:

Looks like Remington shut down Bushmaster and dpms.

The fact that Bushmaster and DPMS were pretty much a no show at SHOT was a pretty good sign this was coming.

Wiggity
Oct 22, 2016

Old school cool
Now with all of the millenial bullshit

I LOVE welding on things where chlorinated solvents are present - Phosgene ams your friend!


Correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems that most things Remington touches end up in the shitter sooner or later. The example that comes to mind being Marlin.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



stgdz posted:

Looks like Remington shut down Bushmaster and dpms.

Watch, I bet they'll end up selling the Bushmaster name back to the guy who sold it to them in the first place, who (IIRC) started and still runs Windham Armory.

mischief
Jun 3, 2003


Why in the world would anyone buy what's left of the Bushmaster legacy?

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE






Illegal Hen

Wasn't Bushmaster one of the only companies making AR's during the AWB?

DeesGrandpa
Oct 21, 2009



Android Apocalypse posted:

Wasn't Bushmaster one of the only companies making AR's during the AWB?

Nah there were a bunch (not relative to today's crazy saturation of course) and the big guys all just did compliant versions.

Soupisgood
Dec 5, 2012


Hey how come all your ARs have dumb bumpy nubs on them? And how do you carry them around without the sling?

ChauchetRedemption
Sep 11, 2001

Were not accustomed to occupying defensive positions. Its destructive to morale.

Captain Log posted:

I've got a question I've been kicking around. My ARs are 6.5 Grendel, 7.62, and 5.56. What would be involved in turning one of those to a PCC or even a .22 shooting rifle? I really need a place to practice with my ARs. I'm sure we will finally get a Portland shoot together when it gets a little less freezing and rainy, but I'd really like to be able to practice at my pistol range.

I'm eventually going to get a Ruger free floated PCC, but I'm trying to gauge the price of that vs. price of converting an AR.


If you do build/get a dedicated .22 upper
This coupled with This makes loading those pain in the rear end blackdog mags a thing of the past

E:
Also totally gonna use this for my PCC upper build

ChauchetRedemption fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Feb 1, 2020

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




You people are too good to me. Iíve got a thousand ways to go now.

Also - Ciener 22 kits. They can be bought for tens of dollars. Worth it?

mischief
Jun 3, 2003


Still not sure why anyone is challenging the colt mag for 9mm AR.

Captain Log posted:

Also - Ciener 22 kits. They can be bought for tens of dollars. Worth it?

Really depends what you want to do. They made sense as a cheap way to learn a manual of arms and then later as a cheap way to shoot stuff.


Today? Makes more sense to throw another Benjamin at it and get a dedicated .22 upper.

mischief fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Feb 1, 2020

Lightbulb Out
Apr 28, 2006

slack jawed yokel


Soupisgood posted:

Hey how come all your ARs have dumb bumpy nubs on them? And how do you carry them around without the sling?



Nothing but smooth contours and ergonomics for this guy.

Action-Bastard
Jan 1, 2008



Soupisgood posted:

Hey how come all your ARs have dumb bumpy nubs on them? And how do you carry them around without the sling?



The carry handle is not for carrying maggot!

(Can we get a with a little drill sergeant hat?)

McNally
Sep 12, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?


Soupisgood posted:

Hey how come all your ARs have dumb bumpy nubs on them? And how do you carry them around without the sling?



Why does your AR have some kind of tumor sticking out of the side?

Hunterhr
Jan 4, 2007

And The Beast, Satan said unto the LORD, "You Fucking Suck" and juked him out of his goddamn shoes

McNally posted:

Why does your AR have some kind of tumor sticking out of the side?



It's not a tumor!

Soupisgood
Dec 5, 2012


McNally posted:

Why does your AR have some kind of tumor sticking out of the side?



U.S. Ordnance, that's why.

wheres my beer
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe


My AR looks different than your ARs.

Wifi Toilet
Oct 1, 2004



Toilet Rascal

Miso Beno posted:


My AR looks different than your ARs.

Hmm, there's a new, unfired AR180B on gunbroker right now for $1k (little over a day left.)



Shame about the poly lower, but there's a fix for that!

mischief
Jun 3, 2003


Or just buy a Sterling. I wouldn't spend a grand on a later polymer rifle.

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.


I take it those polymer lowers are significantly flawed?

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Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



A.o.D. posted:

I take it those polymer lowers are significantly flawed?

Yeah apparently they break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CsMqdYQjSQ#t=409s

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