mlmp08 posted:

Sequester was about 4 years after the bail in the F-22 production line’s coffin.

Also did not help the F-22 line that Senator McCain hated the aircraft. A lot.

Naramyth posted:

was he mad he never would crash one

bewbies posted:

in my opinion, Cheney killing off the F-14 was a far more egregious sin

mlmp08 posted:

And at that time, the F-22 had never been used in combat despite years of war.

Sagebrush posted:

The nuclear submarines have never been used in combat either but we sure keep those around

Stairmaster posted:

A hypothetical f-14e probably would have been a better buy for the navy tbh.

Explosionface posted:

Makes me wonder what you could do if you took the F-14 and engineered out the swing wings what you could get. I'll start doodling in my trapper keeper and let you guys know the results.

Sagebrush posted:

An F-15E.

Explosionface posted:

Makes me wonder what you could do if you took the F-14 and engineered out the swing wings what you could get. I'll start doodling in my trapper keeper and let you guys know the results.

Sagebrush posted:

The nuclear submarines have never been used in combat either but we sure keep those around

bewbies posted:

in my opinion, Cheney killing off the F-14 was a far more egregious sin

Mortabis posted:

To take this seriously for a moment, if the F-14D had survived, we'd now be dealing with clapped out 30 year old swing wing jets and figuring out how to replace those with F-35Cs or whatever the Navy's new air superiority fighter is. I don't know that our approximate position today would be that different.

Murgos posted:

The SSNs may be some of the most engaged with potential adversary systems in the arsenal. From sigint ops to delivering covert types to place to just poking their noses in places they don't belong and dogging other navy's they get around.

edit: And then there have been the various cruise missile strikes over the years.

Sagebrush posted:

It looks to me like it was introduced into service in 2006, three years after anything resembling an enemy Air Force existed in Iraq or Afghanistan, and the program was cancelled in 2009.

Like yes you are right it wasn't used in combat but what a dumb justification if that's what it was. The nuclear submarines have never been used in combat either but we sure keep those around

mlmp08 posted:

Also did not help the F-22 line that Senator McCain hated the aircraft. A lot.

Cyrano4747 posted:

A bunch of years back I visited one of the WW1/WW2 era border forts they had near the German border. That was loving impressive and if it's anything to go by I have to assume that the late cold war versions would have been terrifying to crack with anything short of nukes.

I'm unconvinced that the Swiss aren't just hairless, unusually tall dwarves.

fake edit: I've got a Swiss Civil Defense book sitting around somewhere from the late 70s/early 80s that covers what to do on the civilian side of things in case of WW3. It's an interesting read to say the least.

Noosphere posted:

I got to spend a night in the Festung Waldbrand during officer school endurance week. It's now a private military museum, and is probably the only operational privately owned artillery battery in the world, or so the guide claimed (the government apparently forgot to render the guns inoperative before they sold the fortress). It really drove home how loving miserable life must have been inside these bunkers: cold, humid, extremely loud, and submarine tight sleeping quarters (enlisted men would hot-rack). Oh, and you would disappear down there for 3 weeks at a time for you annual military course and be strictly forbidden from telling anyone what you did during that time.

Here's documentary in German about the Gotthard fortress complex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj61b6w7Xtk

And yeah, the Civil Defense side was nuts. I remember finding diagrams in a civil defense shelter for shelters with thousands of beds. And then there's the infamous Sollenberg Autobahn bunker, designed to shelter 20'000 people. It was too ambitious and was rapidly decomissioned. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/in-case-of-emergency_the-forgotten-underground-world-of-swiss-bunkers/42395820

Noosphere posted:

Now, what exactly is a Fortress Brigade ? They 10th and 13th brigades manned the enormous fortress complexes dug into the Alps at the chokepoints of the main river valleys leading into the central massif, while the 23rd was the very heart of the Réduit, occupying the vast complexes around the Gotthard Pass.

Oberst Hanspeter Rückli posted:

It’s the end of an era. 40 years ago, Swiss pilots flew the then hyper modern Mirage for the first time in France. The reconnaissance version, the Mirage IIIRS (Reconnaissance Suisse) flew in Swiss skies for the first time 38 years ago. The Mirage reconnaissance pilots who’s call sign was “AMIR” (Aufklärer-Mirage) were a peculiar specimen of pilot. Being totally self reliant, having to fly only a handful of meters above unknown territory in order to find one’s exact objective, and thereafter having to return to base with the required pictures – that was a great challenge in every flight. Colonel Rückli is such an “AMIR”. With his 23 years experience with the Mirage IIIRS, he is without a doubt the most qualified person to write about this most extraordinary aircraft.

Acquisition
In 1958, after the first Hunter acquisition, the search for a replacement for the DH Vampire was begun. Many possible airplanes were tested. In the final round, the decision had to be made between the French Mirage IIIC and the Swedish Draken. Both the evaluating team and the Federal Council clearly preferred the French fighter. A request for the acquisition of 100 Mirage IIIS was submitted to Parliament on April 28th 1961. Both the Upper and the Lower House (Ständerat and Nationalrat) agreed to the 827 million CHF [translator’s note: equal to around 3.7 billion USD in 2020] purchase with only 9 dissenting votes. The same year, the General Staff intervened and demanded that 18 reconnaissance aircraft be included in the acquisition. The desire to combine the very best airframe with the very best weapon systems led to massive cost overruns, and eventually to the “Mirage Scandal” in 1964, as the acquisition was still ongoing. A parliamentary inquiry commission led by Kurt Furgler requested that the number of aircraft be reduced to the number that the allowed credit would effectively be able to purchase. Thus, a newly defined quantity of fighters was purchased as follows: 36 Mirage IIIS, 18 Mirage IIIRS and 2 Mirage IIIBS. This still required two extra credits, totalling 350 million CHF to complete. Fortunately, the General Staff’s demand for 18 reconnaissance aircraft was not affected by the reduced acquisition. The first Mirage IIIRS (R-2101) was built in France by Dassault and flown over to Switzerland on August 4th 1969. The following 17 aircraft were licence built by the Federal Aircraft Factory in Emmen. These were delivered into service between July 1968 and August 1969. The equipment of the reconnaissance Mirage was quite advanced for it’s time and amply fulfilled its mission requirements. The Mirage III itself was an extremely sophisticated airplane: it boasted electro-hydraulic controls, automatic attitude control, “speed-hold” on approach, and the “Boule”, a revolutionary instrument allowing the pilot to understand his orientation in three-dimensional space. It was truly a stroke of genius by Dassault. Thanks to the integration of American Taran, the reconnaissance Mirage had a device which automatically mapped its position. This was of particular use for low altitude flights. The modern Omera-33 cameras took razor-sharp pictures despite high speeds at low altitude. The Alkan flash cartridge system turned night into day, allowing night-time photoreconnaissance for the first time. A simple radar warning device enhanced safety in the face of the first radar assisted air defence systems and fighters. For self-defence and air superiority missions, the weaponry was comprised of two 30mm cannon and short-range infrared seeking missiles. As time went by, the aircraft were modernised and improved bit by bit. In order to be less visible at night, the Alkan system and its highly visible flash was replaced by a passive infrared sensor. An inertial navigation system (INS) was installed, considerably improving navigational accuracy. Further developments of the radar warning device and self-defense systems considerably improved the chance of survival in the face of air defenses. The Swiss developed canard wings considerably improved the low speed handling characteristics of the Mirage. Despite all this, a systematic technical improvement of the aircraft in the sense of a “mid-life update” never happened. Because of this, upgrades requested by the pilots, such as an HUD, active ECM, FLIR, GPS or stand -off sensors were never installed.

Deployment
Though Switzerland had previous experience with tactical reconnaissance aircraft, such as the DH-112 R, the Mirage IIIRS suddenly propelled the Swiss Air Force into a totally different league. The newly possible deployment times (24h), combat speeds (up to mach 2), combat altitude (up to 15’000m) and combat radius (up to 600km) were a quantum leap for tactical air reconnaissance in Switzerland. It was therefore important to place these 18 aircraft into a new organisational, instructional, and doctrinal structure, as we as to develop a future oriented deployment doctrine. The newly founded Reconnaissance Group of the Surveillance Squadron (UeG = Überwachungsgeschwader) was given this challenging mission. The early delivery of the first aircraft in 1965 gave enough time, until the introduction of the Mirage IIIRS into active duty in 1968, to develop the necessary basic knowledge. The available time was wisely used, and indeed, much of what was done then is still useful today, and this year’s international success by the 10th Air Squadron is yet another testament to the quality of the work of the reconnaissance Mirage pioneers.

The squadron
After the formation of various reconnaissance detachements starting in 1954, the 10th Air Squadron was officially designated as “Reconnaissance Squadron” on September 1st 1963. This squadron was traditionally based in Ticino [translator’s note: battalions, regiments and air squadrons traditionally have a “sponsor” Canton, from who’s population the formation is typically composed. The Canton’s onerous duties include sometimes sending a politician over to visit or sending a few cartons of wine to the battalion staff], was the reason for the composition of the pilot’s song “Voglio Volare” and had a tragic history with the 1938 crash in Muotatal. Its duty was now newly defined as reconnaissance. Few squadrons have been able to change so much so quickly. The expanded order of battle of 85 men (pilots, analyst officers, intelligence officers, and enlisted) required the leadership of a major. He was assisted by four – until the retirement from service of the DH 112 R- then three group commanders. The training air base of the 10th Air Squadron was in Dübendorf. The yearly repetition courses could be held all over Switzerland, most commonly in Buochs, with Sion and Payerne as backup air bases. Despite being a reservist formation, the squadron was closely linked to the professional Surveillance Squadron (UeG). Commanders for the 10th Air Squadron were picked from the professionals of the Reconnaissance Group, and later also from the Department of Aerial Reconnaissance (LRA = Ressort Luftaufklärung). If, at first, reservist pilots were trained to operate the Mirage, an aerial reconnaissance career in the Mirage rapidly became reserved only to professional military pilots from the Surveillance Squadron. This attracted many candidates, and thus a selection would be made amongst them. Once the decision was made to replace the Mirage with the F/A-18, this comfortable situation changed, and creative solutions had to be found to maintain the necessary quality and quantity of pilots. Thus, once the Hunter was retired from service, some of the newly freed up reservist pilots were called upon, and in 1996, five pilots in training were given the unique opportunity to transition directly from the Hawk to the Mirage. Following a restructuring of the Air Force, and the foundation of an Aerial Reconnaissance Regiment, the 10th Air Squadron was split among three squadrons in 1991. Two retired Hunter squadrons were turned into Mirage reconnaissance squadrons. Pilots reacted to this change in their own way. The traditional squadron markings of the 3rd and 4th Squadrons were quickly replaced by the well-known eagle of the reconnaissance branch. Three squadrons, one insignia – the desired corporate identity and thus the trademark of the group of individualists was saved. That ten years later, the circle was circled, and that the 3rd and 4th Squadron were disbanded will simply be remarked upon in passing.

Foreign deployment
For far too long, the area of operations of the reconnaissance Mirage was restricted to Switzerland, amongst the well-known reconnaissance areas of the Mittelland and the Jura, the difficult mountain flying, the ever-changing swiss weather and the wartime air bases. Though challenging, this environment became habitual. Starting in 1989, the borders were thrown open for the reconnaissance Mirage, and for the first time, what had been learned and practiced could be tested on unknown foreign territory. TIKAS, the low-level flight campaign in Sweden set the bar for the first time. The results were convincing. Finding a target in difficult, unknown no-man’s land rapidly was a routine. Extremely low flight operations, which could not be trained in Switzerland, required more sharpening. For political reasons, this campaign only happened once. A decade later, a convention with France allowed the Mirage to set foot on foreign soil again. A yearly quota of reconnaissance flights helped encourage competence in this domain in the twilight years of the Mirage IIIRS. The best proof of the continuing performance of the system, as well as the high level of training of the crews was brought by the participation in the European Recce Meet in Florennes. A third place in 2002 for our first participation was followed this year by a victory by a small delegation from the 10th Air Squadron. A victory in a reconnaissance contest where the very best of Europe took part !

Farewell
The eagle has reached the end of its service. A long time with many experiences, emotions, both high and low, has reached its end. The costs of the army’s flying eyes were judged too high in the context of the current security situation. The cavern doors in Buochs cloes for the last time in April 2003 behind the Mirage IIIRS. The Mirage appeared one final unforgettable time at the Axalp Demonstration. The characteristic muffled roaring of the Atar engines was silenced forever in Switzerland on December 17th 2003. The memory of this unique aircraft will never fade, however. Successful reconnaissance pictures, as well as souvenir photos, will keep the Mirage and it’s remarkable time from fading. The Air Force intends that tactical aerial reconnaissance stay amongst it’s capabilities and should be a requirement for the New Fighter Project [translator’s note: after a lot of drama, the Swiss people finally accepted to buy planes for the New Fighter Project in the autumn of 2020. In the running are the Rafale, the Eurofighter, the F-35 and the Super Hornet]. The new aircraft will have to fulfill this role as part of its multi-role function: faster, more efficiently, more professional, and with more success. I hope that the next generation of reconnaissance pilots will tackle this with as much passion and enthusiasm as the Mirage generation did.

Murgos posted:

You're job in one of these in the event of all hell breaking loose is either

1. Die or be captured quickly because the Ruskies know you're there and have a good plan for countering you
2. Die or be captured a little less quickly because the Ruskies know you're there and have a bad plan for countering you but if they are coming this way they will be throwing more at you than you can handle
3. Nothing really, they aren't coming this way, maybe a probe or two just to keep you honest and sitting tight denying you as reinforcements elsewhere

quote:

Foreign deployment
For far too long, the area of operations of the reconnaissance Mirage was restricted to Switzerland, amongst the well-known reconnaissance areas of the Mittelland and the Jura, the difficult mountain flying, the ever-changing swiss weather and the wartime air bases. Though challenging, this environment became habitual. Starting in 1989, the borders were thrown open for the reconnaissance Mirage, and for the first time, what had been learned and practiced could be tested on unknown foreign territory. TIKAS, the low-level flight campaign in Sweden set the bar for the first time. The results were convincing. Finding a target in difficult, unknown no-man’s land rapidly was a routine. Extremely low flight operations, which could not be trained in Switzerland, required more sharpening. For political reasons, this campaign only happened once.

Noosphere posted:

EasilyConfused posted:

Thanks for that, fascinating stuff!

Given Switzerland's focus on neutrality, did the air force have to do all their training inside Swiss territory? Seems like it might be tough to find enough space for some exercises.

Cyrano4747 posted:

I'm unconvinced that the Swiss aren't just hairless, unusually tall dwarves.

MikeCrotch posted:

I'm pretty Dwarven women are treated better than the Swiss

The messenger pigeon as a telecommunications element of our army, 1988 posted:

The usage of messenger pigeons for the military communications service relies upon their natural ability to find their way home from anywhere. In addition to hand-written messages, drawings, plans, film or other light objects may be carried. Messenger pigeon connections are independent of the nature of the terrain, as well as the position of the enemy. Flight speed is on average one kilometre a minute, in other words, faster than a courier but slower than telephone, radio or teleprinter. Through continuous improvements in breeding and training, the homing capabilities have been increased to the point that a distance of several hundred kilometres may be covered at any time of day and in any weather in a rapid and reliable fashion. Quite recently, experimental night flights have been conducted, giving astoundingly good results. The contemporary practical military application is to be as follows:
- During reconnaissance missions;
- For observation posts;
- For small formations engaged in guerrilla warfare (Kleinkriegsphase);
- For overcoming the radio silence necessary to prevent detection or because radios are jammed by the enemy;
- As a reserve method of communications, when following a catastrophe, all other communication networks fail.

In total, 23 telecommunication units in our army incorporate Messenger Pigeon Platoons with a total manpower of 1100 officers, NCOs, soldiers, as well as Auxiliary Service and Women’s Auxiliary Service members, who are trained in special courses for this activity.
Because in our country the number of military messenger pigeons and the number of military rookeries is insufficient, there exists a close collaboration between the Federal Bureau of Telecommunication Troops of the Federal Military Department and the Central Association of Swiss Messenger Pigeon Breeders, in which private breeders allow the army access to their animals. In wartime, this would allow around 30’000 pigeons to be deployed.

Communication equipment: Messenger pigeon
Self-reproducing small flying object, biologically based, with hard programmed automatic return from any direction and distance*. Carries film, drawing and messages.
“Technical data”: Weight: 300-500g; Speed: 60-100km/h (rule of thumb: 60 km/h);
Deployment distance: 1 – 1000 km;
Return area: based on home rookery;
Payload: around 6g with the foot container or around 40g with the additional payload adapter (chest container);
Reliability if a pair of pigeons is deployed: around 98%;
Direction of deployment: any, except in mountains;
Length of stay in release area: 3-5 days;
Can go without food for: 3 days;
Can go without water for: 1 day;
“Fuel”: around 30g of cereal meal daily, and water;
Rate of reproduction: around 2-4 descendants per year;
Life expectancy: 8-12 years.

Particularities: Absolutely undetectable through electronic means. Can only be detected visually when extremely near to the rookery.

Price: 5 CHF per messenger pigeon.
Pigeon rookeries: 3 categories: A= private rookery owner with a military contract for a minimum number of pigeons that are always ready for use (around 130 rookeries); B= private rookeries to be requisitioned in case of wartime mobilisation (around 350); C= military rookeries (around 25).
Total around 30’000 pigeons.
In addition, 8 mobile rookeries in trailers requiring a two week acclimatization before deployment readiness is achieved.
The Chief of Telecommunications in each brigade or army units knows the location of the rookeries.
Many rookeries are present in the area of operations of the Field Army Corps, relatively few in the Alps.

Infrastructure and maintenance: Maintenance of the pigeons, organisation of supply, transfer of intelligence and instructions to the end-users are the responsibility in all Brigades and Territorial Zones of the members of the Messenger Pigeon Service. Per platoon: 30-45 men and/or Women’s Auxiliary Service and 2 attributed vehicles. In Brigades: soldiers and Auxiliary Service, in Territorial Zones: Women’s Auxiliary Service and Auxiliary Service.

End-user training: Extremely easy to use. 5 minutes of training are sufficient when giving the pigeon to unfamiliar end-users in order to acquaint them with the release process.
Optimal deployment: Preferably during radio silence by reconnaissance patrols, observation posts, as grouped messaging by units on the move or in guerrilla warfare zones. Principle: liaison of various small mobile elements with a fixed command post.
Deployment limitations: Is not a command and control instrument (one-way connection). Limited carrying capacity (2-3 Telegram Forms depending on the pigeon). Messenger pigeons must be brought or supplied to the area of release. Reliability diminishes under extreme weather conditions. Night deployment only after special training.

quote:

and the “Boule”, a revolutionary instrument allowing the pilot to understand his orientation in three-dimensional space. It was truly a stroke of genius by Dassault.

Nebakenezzer posted:

Swiss posts good, gonna add 'em to the OP

Though I have to ask what the heck this is, exactly:

madeintaipei posted:

FYI, there is a brand new thread in GiP for stories from national service here.

david_a posted:

Doesnt “boule” just mean “ball” in French? I found this picture of a Mirage 2000 cockpit; is it that globe thing on the upper left?

Fernand Carrel posted:

In November 1978, under the initiative the Chief of Intelligence of the Aviation and Anti-Aircraft Troops, Mr Rolf Lécher, the Israeli Air Force invited two Swiss pilots to familiarise themselves with the combat methods that allowed Israeli pilots to triumph over the Arab air forces. Two highly experienced Mirage IIIS pilots were chose for this mission: Colonel (General Staff) Leuthold and Major (General Staff) Carrel. They were hosted by the 117th Squadron at the Ramat-David air base, and each given three indoctrination flights on Mirage IIIBJ by two of the greatest aces of the IAF: Lieutenant-colonel Kobi Richter (commander of the 117th) and Major Eli Adar. The results are stupefying, and the Swiss pilots cannot believe their eyes. On the basis of data that was very kindly made available to the Swiss, the Israelis concluded that the only part of the flight envelope where the Mirage was superior to its traditional adversary the MiG 21 was both far below the minimum airspeed and far above the maximum angle of attack prescribed by the manufacturer, Dassault.
The Israelis consider the AoA limit to be unjustified at low altitudes and low airspeed and decide to ignore it. They execute maneuverers that “traditional” Mirage pilots such as the Swiss find astounding. Leaving their “Adhémar” [AoA indicator] pinned in the red, they follow only the warning given by aerodynamic forces (buffeting) which announces an imminent loss of control. This way of flying requires not only considerable talent, but especially a lot of intense practice. There are by the way many accidents, but due to the constant aerial threat, the Israelis have no choice. Once the two Swiss pilots return home and tell of their experience, no one believes them; the younger pilots even accuse them of early onset senility! But everything changes the next year, when the same two Israeli pilots visit Switzerland, during which they fly not only the Mirage IIIBS familiar to them, but also the F-5F Tiger which they have no experience with. Of the twenty to thirty simulated dogfights against Swiss pilots, they are systematically victorious. The shower is cold, but the lesson is heeded. This has clearly shown a serious lack in the training of Mirage pilots, focused mostly on high altitude, high speed interception. An “Air Combat Service” is formed under Colonel Aellen and Major Pellanda, dedicated to teaching short range air combat in fighter squadrons. The Swiss Mirage pilots will rapidly become experts in the matter. These first contacts create a lasting bond between the IAF and the Aviation Troops, which is very profitable to the latter.

Noosphere posted:

The Mirages IIIRS that went sent to the museum got a pretty cool paintjob.

Murgos posted:

You're job in one of these in the event of all hell breaking loose is either

1. Die or be captured quickly because the Ruskies know you're there and have a good plan for countering you

Noosphere posted:

The Artillery Free Fire Zone (AFFZ = Artillerie Feuerfreizone) is probably exactly what it says on the tin. It's situated far more logically than it's counterpart by the 10th (notated ZTLA = zone de tir libre d'artillerie), as it actually covers the plain, and not some random mountainside.

feedmegin posted:

This plan is probably a tactical nuclear weapon