Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

🦅🤠🏈🗽🍕⭐🏳️‍🌈


Soiled Meat

Prolonged Panorama posted:

Again, seriously? The Lynch version is like a student film in comparison - it exists because it's in the book, but nothing really happens story-wise for any of the characters. We just run through the beats (and slavishly book accurate dialogue) in rote fashion. In Villeneuve Paul actually masters the pain, turns the tables on Mohiam, and she falters, wondering what she's awakened. Literally every aspect of the new version is superior - performance, set design, cinematography, script, communicating Paul's pain, his relationship with his mother. And it actually serves a story purpose in Paul and Jessica (and Mohiam's!) journeys. Here, watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrW_8M3xJow

The Lynch version was better imo

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

Touch Fuzzy, get Spooky


D-Pad posted:

This explains a lot

I'd love to hear what it explains. :)

Prolonged Panorama
Dec 21, 2007
Holy hookrat Sally smoking crack in the alley!





steinrokkan posted:

The Lynch version was better imo

THE PAIN!!!!!!

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT





bring back sting as feyd with the original codpiece. he's only 70, this is gonna work

Tankbuster
Oct 1, 2021



No Mods No Masters posted:

Giedi prime sucked. These are the richest guys in the universe and they fuckin love to party, surely they would live inside a hr giger colon

why wouldn't they? Organometallic designs that ooze sex appeal.

D-Pad
Jun 28, 2006



sigher posted:

I'd love to hear what it explains. :)

You using a smiley face for one.

Prolonged Panorama posted:

Well said. This version is obsessed with the textures of natural materials - wood, stone, sand. Everything feels appropriately ancient.

Is this dude trolling, the Lynch voice overs are embarrassing 100% of the time. An admission of cinematic failure; we can't adequately show, or even tell via dialogue, so we'll tell via directly hearing character thoughts.

Again, seriously? The Lynch version is like a student film in comparison - it exists because it's in the book, but nothing really happens story-wise for any of the characters. We just run through the beats (and slavishly book accurate dialogue) in rote fashion. In Villeneuve Paul actually masters the pain, turns the tables on Mohiam, and she falters, wondering what she's awakened. Literally every aspect of the new version is superior - performance, set design, cinematography, script, communicating Paul's pain, his relationship with his mother. And it actually serves a story purpose in Paul and Jessica (and Mohiam's!) journeys. Here, watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrW_8M3xJow

Yeah anybody who thinks any part of the Lynch movie is superior besides the camp/weirdness has a broke brain.

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005
I eat a lot of shit on account of being a magically animated pile of feces shaped to resemble a humanoid. That's right, I'm a shit golem and proud of it!
A genuine PoS (person of shit)
:troll:

the lynch movie tried to do something interesting

i think dunc will date as poorly as BR2049 - a lot of praise about it is for the aesthetic which is very attached to the present moment

Anonymous Zebra
Oct 21, 2005
Blending in like it ain't no thang

What really makes me think that Denis get's Dune is how he used Jamis. The other adaptations make Jamis kind of a hot head who basically only serves as the first person that Paul needs to kill, but that's not what Jamis really represented in the books. Herbert has said that Dune is a deconstruction of the concept of the Messiah or of "The Great Man". That if someone only gets one thing from the book, it's that you should always be questioning your leader and thinking about what they are asking you to do before you do it.

In this movie we are shown through the visions that Jamis is a relatively cool dude who is basically telling Paul how to move with the flow of the world around him rather than trying to push through it and exert his will upon it. It also shows him being a gentle teacher/mentor to Paul. The Jamis we actually end up seeing does not choose to challenge Stilgar's leadership because he's an rear end in a top hat, but because he thinks that Paul is a terrible thing for the Fremen. Early in the conversation he tells Stilgar to "find reason", to reject the idea of The Messiah and actually consider Paul and Jessica for what they are, exiled invaders who do not share their ways and who will co-opt the Fremen for their own personal wars. After Stilgar gets owned by Jessica and starts drinking the Koolaide, Jamis basically has to be the guy that stands up and questions his leader. Because, to him, he sees Paul and Jessica as disasters waiting to destroy the Fremen, and someone needs to be willing to speak out against that.

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

Touch Fuzzy, get Spooky


D-Pad posted:

You using a smiley face for one.

I'm honestly curious about what you have to say rather than read gotchas, thanks.

I.G.
Oct 10, 2000



It's a little amusing seeing reviewers suddenly compare Lynch's version favorably with Villeneuve's after nealy 40 years of universal critical panning.

Prolonged Panorama
Dec 21, 2007
Holy hookrat Sally smoking crack in the alley!





shrike82 posted:

the lynch movie tried to do something interesting

Tried and died.

quote:

i think dunc will date as poorly as BR2049 - a lot of praise about it is for the aesthetic which is very attached to the present moment

Good cinematography is timeless though? And the design was pretty timeless for both too, being exercises in retro-futures (80s and 50s/60s respectively) and very consciously uncoupled from our present day notions of "the future."

edit: I can understand not vibing with Villeneueve's overall chilly gaze and story/script choices but BR2049 is an all-time Great Looking Film. Dune might not reach the same heights but it is also very very nice to look at and I can't imagine a visual critique that doesn't start with acknowledging that.

Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Oct 25, 2021

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

D-Pad posted:

You using a smiley face for one.

Yeah anybody who thinks any part of the Lynch movie is superior besides the camp/weirdness has a broke brain.

The musicís better, the production design is more interesting (I like the new filmís production design, but the old oneís is better), and Iíd say, despite some effects not coming off, the attack on Arrakeen is better. Also the Baron, really.

Like, I like Villeneueís Dune. It is very much a version thatís been made more accessible, which does require losing some of the little details, and thatís fine. I do think the reviewer does go a little far in complaining Dennis did it different, he kinda had to, the Lynch film already got made. There are many good things in this movie. But I probably still do prefer Lynchís version, compromised though it is- thereís something to it thatís not in any other genre film, and Iíd compare it to 2001 or Solaris in terms of cinema-as-visual-art.

shrike82
Jun 11, 2005
I eat a lot of shit on account of being a magically animated pile of feces shaped to resemble a humanoid. That's right, I'm a shit golem and proud of it!
A genuine PoS (person of shit)
:troll:

Prolonged Panorama posted:

Tried and died.

Good cinematography is timeless though? And the design was pretty timeless for both too, being exercises in retro-futures (80s and 50s/60s respectively) and very consciously uncoupled from our present day notions of "the future."

edit: I can understand not vibing with Villeneueve's overall chilly gaze and story/script choices but BR2049 is an all-time Great Looking Film. Dune might not reach the same heights but it is also very very nice to look at and I can't imagine a visual critique that doesn't start with acknowledging that.

it's kinda presumptive to talk about timelessness and "great looking" considering that villeneuve's visual preferences align broadly with other contemporary directors such as nolan. the minimalist austerity that you see in not just Dune but Sicario, BR2049, and extending to Nolan's movies such as Interstellar and Inception are very contemporary

and the odd thing is that it actually clashes directly with the book itself which is rich in its baroqueness, not just of the substance of the politics but the aesthetics
the descriptions of giedi prime are pretty lurid in the book yet the movie just paints it as blandly austere as salusa secundus and arrakis

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


I like all the dunes I've seen so far; Dune, Frank Herbert's Dune, Dunc

But Lynch's is still the best, uneven as it is

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream



thotsky posted:

The Lynch version pulls off pretty much everything except the Toto-scored Flash Gordon-esque battle scene in the climax. It's too camp for the tone of the movie, but not camp enough to be entertaining.

Automatic Slim
Jul 1, 2007




Brody's review seems to set up Lynch's version as a high bar to vault over. Itís not. Itís just a take of someone elseís story that succeeds or fails on its own merits. One can have their preferences but it seems a lot of people place Lynch's version on a pedestal due to nostalgia rather than its own qualities.

Brody has a point that Villeneuve setting is more austere or empty but there are more details in other facets of movie. Lynch's version is something to neither to pay homage to nor react against. Villeneuve wisely makes a fresh start (with some nods to the games, apparently) when imagining Herbert's material.

Regarding the Gom Jabbar scene, Lynchís version is detailed, sure, but thereís an exchange of looks in Villeneuve's version that is one of the most masterful uses of foreshadowing ever. If youíve read the book you know what to look for and itís already its own payoff.

Like or dislike the 2021 version, but the constant referral and comparison to the Ď84 version is excessive and unnecessary.

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream



Automatic Slim posted:

the constant referral and comparison to the Ď84 version is excessive and unnecessary.

it's also totally inevitable and asking people not to do it is like asking the sun not to rise

Rabelais D
Dec 11, 2012

ts'u nnu k'u k'o t'khye:
A demon doth defecate at thy door

If we compare theatrical cuts then Dune 1984 isn't better at all, because that cut was a mess. The near three hour alternative cut redux or whatever it is that's on Youtube is really good though. I'm sure there's going to be an extended edition of Dunc and it's almost definitely going to be superior to the theatrical release.

Also there's been two slights at Flash Gordon (1980) so far in this thread, as if somehow being like Flash Gordon is a bad thing. Flash Gordon is excellent and probably has more memorable sets and characters than Villeneuve's Dune. Not to mention a cracking soundtrack.

The attack on Mingo city (on the planet Mongo) is much more exciting than the attack on Arrakeen (on the planet Arrakis) in both cinematic Dunes, for example.

Automatic Slim
Jul 1, 2007



shrike82 posted:



and the odd thing is that it actually clashes directly with the book itself which is rich in its baroqueness, not just of the substance of the politics but the aesthetics
the descriptions of giedi prime are pretty lurid in the book yet the movie just paints it as blandly austere as salusa secundus and arrakis

This is a good point. Decadent excess of the wealth of the great houses wouldíve been a great contrast austere brutality of Arrakis' desert. I did like the Salusa Secondous setting though.

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011

🦅🤠🏈🗽🍕⭐🏳️‍🌈


Soiled Meat

I hope in the sequel the worm steps on some people

Prolonged Panorama
Dec 21, 2007
Holy hookrat Sally smoking crack in the alley!





I don't think I've ever seen anyone say Nolan films are particularly visually compelling or striking, let alone potential all-timers. They're fine to good, in my book. Sicario and BR2049 on the other hand are a two part masterclass in cinematic photography.

I think you're talking more about production design? The way the props and sets and costumes look, vs how they are lit and shot. Villeneuve's taste is an obvious cut above Nolan's there too, but I can understand not vibing with it.

I'd disagree that Dune the novel is "rich in baroqueness," in terms of visuals. Herbert didn't give much info about how stuff was supposed to look, and what we do get actually goes the other way, towards the austere. For Geidi Prime for example we just get a few lines about how the city is ramshackle and dirty under its fresh coats of paint and hastily hung holiday banners, and how the Baron's reception hall has some common architectural tricks to make it appear larger than it is. You could take that in a baroque direction, sure, but it's not really there in the text at all. Jessica thinks the Arrakeen keep is "all bleak stone" compared to her Bene Gesserit school, with "shadowed carvings" and "deeply recessed windows". Sounds like what we got in Villeneuve's version! Granted that there are different flavors of "bleak stone" but baroque bleak stone seems like an oxymoron to me. The only set I'd really feel good taking baroque based on the text would be the Baron's bedchambers, which I think we'll (thankfully) be spared in this adaptation.

Herbert approved of John Shoenherr's Dune artwork ("I can envision no more perfect visual representation of my Dune world than John Schoenherrís careful and accurate illustrations"), which is... well, almost austere. He favors big striking shapes and strong forms over ornament and detail. His paintings are largely monochrome, with subtle color shifts. If there is rich detail it's in intricate rock formations. His ink illustrations are more busy, with squirrely hatching and some psychedelic compositions, but I wouldn't call them baroque either.















Seems pretty likely this stuff was the jumping off point for Denis and crew, and I'm glad of it. We got the baroque version in Lynch, and it works fine too, that film's flaws aren't in the production design. And actually the 2021 Caladan sets are pretty intricate and full of detail on every surface, if that's your thing. Arrakis/Arrakeen is an intentional 180 from that. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the sietch sets.

Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Oct 25, 2021

cohsae
Jun 19, 2015



Everyone's taking about the Lynch Dune, but what about the miniseries? Apparently it was popular at the time is it any good or does no one care

smooth jazz
May 13, 2010



cohsae posted:

Everyone's taking about the Lynch Dune, but what about the miniseries? Apparently it was popular at the time is it any good or does no one care

It's the greatest school play ever filmed.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


sigher posted:

I'm honestly curious about what you have to say rather than read gotchas, thanks.

Welcome to the nerd discourse, the rules are simple:

Disliking the thing I like? That's a trolling.

Liking the thing I dislike? That's a trolling too.

Liking what I like or disliking what I dislike, but in a different way than I do? Oh you better BELIEVE that's a trolling!

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


It's got a pretty good script and some good acting, but also some bad acting and it's lit like a stage play and has a bunch of dumb dutch angles.

You should look up the Ian McNiece scenes on Youtube.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011

Clarke has more acting talent in her brows than most other actors, including herself, have in their entire body.



cohsae posted:

Everyone's taking about the Lynch Dune, but what about the miniseries? Apparently it was popular at the time is it any good or does no one care

Oddly similar to the Villeneuve movie in many ways. Less plodding and and of course cheap as poo poo but likewise highly concerned with hitting the story beats from the book and not being as weird as the lynch version.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

Honestly the only scene I disliked was Paul's freakout in the tent because the sound made it almost impossible to make out what he was saying and that's pretty crucial stuff if you are a non-book reader.

Honest Thief
Jan 11, 2009

mão na bola

Anonymous Zebra posted:

What really makes me think that Denis get's Dune is how he used Jamis. The other adaptations make Jamis kind of a hot head who basically only serves as the first person that Paul needs to kill, but that's not what Jamis really represented in the books. Herbert has said that Dune is a deconstruction of the concept of the Messiah or of "The Great Man". That if someone only gets one thing from the book, it's that you should always be questioning your leader and thinking about what they are asking you to do before you do it.


Jamis' usage was really interesting, it's been years since i read the books but the initial idea i landed on was it seemed to imply the eventual rejection from the path by paul since he didnt take the blade. but his visions are less than reliable

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT ZFS? OH YOU HAVE?

HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT HOW YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG? NO? LET ME TELL YOU

...AND IN CONCLUSION, LINUX IS NOT A REAL OPERATING SYSTEM AND ANYONE USING IT SHOULD BE SHOT INTO THE SUN, INCLUDING YOU, JUST SAYING


Neo Rasa posted:

In the movie he prophesized that he and Jamis would be good friends and that Jamis would show him the ways of the desert. That kinda sorta came true but not even remotely in the way Paul was expecting. Which I loved because to me it shows Paul himself that he's not actually 100% godhead prediction machine and also it ads a bit more to that action scene because of course Paul repeatedly tries to get Jamis to yield, he's not "supposed" to die yet...oh poo poo.
In the books Pauls desire to be a 100% godhead prediction machine is what causes the prophecy planted by the Missionaria Protectiva to come true, ie. that he can be both dead and alive proving that he is the Lisan al-Gaib, because he drinks the water of life, which only happens because he hadn't predicted that one of the Sardukar would attempt to try assassination even after being captured, if memory serves.

Near as I can tell, Frank Herberts point about heroic people is that they might want the best, but the outcome is always bad, even if they try and work against it.

2house2fly posted:

Also that the very idea of him being the chosen one has been deliberately planted on presumably multiple planets by a shadowy illuminati conspiracy
This isn't part of the movie so I'm not sure it counts as a spoiler:
The Missionaria Protectiva is planted by the Bene Gesserit on thousands of planets, to help protect Bene Gesserit sisters.
On Arrakis, it mixed with the existing religion, and took on a strange shape that happened to fit well enough for Jessica and Paul to fit into.

Rabelais D posted:

If we compare theatrical cuts then Dune 1984 isn't better at all, because that cut was a mess. The near three hour alternative cut redux or whatever it is that's on Youtube is really good though. I'm sure there's going to be an extended edition of Dunc and it's almost definitely going to be superior to the theatrical release.

Also there's been two slights at Flash Gordon (1980) so far in this thread, as if somehow being like Flash Gordon is a bad thing. Flash Gordon is excellent and probably has more memorable sets and characters than Villeneuve's Dune. Not to mention a cracking soundtrack.

The attack on Mingo city (on the planet Mongo) is much more exciting than the attack on Arrakeen (on the planet Arrakis) in both cinematic Dunes, for example.
The theatrical cut is as if someone took a hacksaw to a David Lynch movie, because that's what they did, and why David Lynch disowned it - until he saw how much money it was making.

The thing about the 1984 movie is that, as a David Lynch movie, it's only middle-low-to-average. He's made much better movies. As a Dune movie, it's just bad.
So either way you judge it, it leaves a sour taste behind.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Oct 25, 2021

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot


sigher posted:

The best little bit of character building was the joke about the main character not gaining muscle.

I love that they threw in one joke for the trailer to make people think this would be like Marvel. That had to be a studio directive.

sponges
Sep 14, 2011



shrike82 posted:

the lynch movie tried to do something interesting

i think dunc will date as poorly as BR2049 - a lot of praise about it is for the aesthetic which is very attached to the present moment

Aesthetic and cinematography are important parts of a film. Maybe more than anything else.

bR2049 owned

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot



I enjoy the Sting bits; I was referring to the fremen assault montage. Unless you're saying almost naked Sting is camp and tone-defining? IMO that's just a good time.

Also, the Gom Jabbar scene in the lynch version is among my favorite movie scenes of all time; the villevalle version was alright too, but not as good.

Rabelais D posted:

Also there's been two slights at Flash Gordon (1980) so far in this thread, as if somehow being like Flash Gordon is a bad thing. Flash Gordon is excellent and probably has more memorable sets and characters than Villeneuve's Dune. Not to mention a cracking soundtrack.

The attack on Mingo city (on the planet Mongo) is much more exciting than the attack on Arrakeen (on the planet Arrakis) in both cinematic Dunes, for example.

Actually, that was sort of my point. I like Flash Gordon a lot, but the comparison of these scenes puts the original Dune in a bad light and it would have been better if they went with a different direction. I guess it was a time constraint, or perhaps Lynch had no interest in a grittier battle scene.

thotsky fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Oct 25, 2021

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.





BlankSystemDaemon posted:

This isn't part of the movie so I'm not sure it counts as a spoiler:
The Missionaria Protectiva is planted by the Bene Gesserit on thousands of planets, to help protect Bene Gesserit sisters.
On Arrakis, it mixed with the existing religion, and took on a strange shape that happened to fit well enough for Jessica and Paul to fit into.

Isn't the existing religion on Arrakis just the BG long-game in an accidentally over-successful form? They pull that poo poo on every world, but on the planet with airborne precognition dust it ends up extra competent.


sponges posted:

Aesthetic and cinematography are important parts of a film. Maybe more than anything else.

bR2049 owned

Aesthetic and cinematography help a film, but what element is most important varies from film to film.

If the best thing about a film is its visuals, its longevity will be limited to only people who especially care about those things. Coppola's Dracula is maybe a good example of something that looked amazing but failed to come together as a whole.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005

Behold the power of the DIC
(Dairy Industrial Complex)


Gonz posted:

Put Sting in Part 2.

big role. Promo music video. Desert Rose remix featuring Darude

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.



When it comes to the austerity in Dune, I actually thought it had a fantastic balance of incredibly austere visuals and tone, but with a lot of warmth and human moments from characters themselves. It never felt like our main House Atreides cast were stiff or untouchable or aloof. The dialogue was often very casual, constantly reminding you that despite the timeline these are still human beings, not some perfect Golden Age Sci-Fi humanoid space fantasy race.

But geez, checking in after watching the flick last night, this thread suffers from a serious inability to take the movie for what it is rather than what it "should" be. It doesn't make the movie bad if it's not slavish to the book or the exact same as the pictures in your head. Movie's good, fam.

Also BR2049 is the best movie of the 21st century so far hth

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005

Behold the power of the DIC
(Dairy Industrial Complex)



jodorowsky's final fantasy

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot


feedmyleg posted:

But geez, checking in after watching the flick last night, this thread suffers from a serious inability to take the movie for what it is rather than what it "should" be. It doesn't make the movie bad if it's not slavish to the book or the exact same as the pictures in your head. Movie's good, fam.

Usually this is a good sign though. It means there's little to criticize in the work as it stands.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005

Behold the power of the DIC
(Dairy Industrial Complex)


so during the worm scene before they reach the fremen what was the weird hollow sand paul stepped on and what did he say

Honest Thief
Jan 11, 2009

mão na bola

Alan Smithee posted:

so during the worm scene before they reach the fremen what was the weird hollow sand paul stepped on and what did he say

sand drum is what i heard

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001





thotsky posted:

Also, the Gom Jabbar scene in the lynch version is among my favorite movie scenes of all time; the villevalle version was alright too, but not as good.

what the gently caress

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply