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The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Trailer next month, with the Inception re-release!

https://trailer-track.com/2020/07/29/report-dune-wonder-woman-1984-trailers-inception-10th-anniversary/

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phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Eason the Fifth posted:

Herbert's quote about that -- "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero" -- was always the theme of the series to me. He spent Dune building up Paul, the Atreides, and the Fremen, and then spent the next three books breaking them down and showing just how terrible heroes and their followers can be even when their intentions are good. I get that the first novel is a perfect hero's journey and I get why people loved it, but I also get why a lot of the same audience bounced hard off the rest of Frank Herbert's part of the series. All the unpalatable reasons are what make it unique and good but they're also why it's so unlikely that we'll see anything past the first book.

This post sums it up, I think. People like a "happy" "ending" and Dune has neither - especially if you read all six books. If they decide to continue the story, it'll probably get handed off to second-rate people who don't know the material except that "kids sure seem to like this Dune thing, even though it's just a knock-off Star Wars". So we'll get some real crap amid a few good things, probably. But not in theaters.

david_a posted:

I'm re-reading The Dosadi Experiment and so far it's living up to my memories of it being extremely dense (but short!). It feels like a tangent on the evolution of the Sardukar (none of Frank's books get into much detail about Salusa Secundus, do they?). This time around I've also read The Whipping Star which helps with some of the references to alien species & tech, but that book had a pretty goofy antagonist. This seems to be one of his better regarded non-Dune books; are there others that people would recommend?

Hellstrom's Hive, The Godmakers, and if you can find it The Tactful Saboteur is pretty short but it's the first story about Jorj McKie. There's also The White Plague, which is a pretty good book about the Troubles in Ireland (still very fictional, though).

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



phasmid posted:

People like a "happy" "ending" and Dune has neither - especially if you read all six books.

If you read all six books, it doesn't really have an ending at all.

quote:

If they decide to continue the story, it'll probably get handed off to second-rate people who don't know the material except that "kids sure seem to like this Dune thing, even though it's just a knock-off Star Wars".

So you're saying they'll just use the poo poo from Brian Herbert and KJA's books.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


PeterWeller posted:

So you're saying they'll just use the poo poo from Brian Herbert and KJA's books.

Sadly, yeah. That too. They're already doing one about the BG which is going to bring the lack of understanding material into clear focus.

PeterWeller posted:

If you read all six books, it doesn't really have an ending at all.

All things considered, maybe that was the best way to go.

UmOk
Aug 3, 2003


Book four is the best place to stop reading.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Book 4 is pretty much "The point". 3 is sort of an end and 4 is more of a coda. The entire goal of the politics and genetic engineering and the like was to create this super-human that could see a path for the continuation of humanity in the face of inevitable decline and extinction. That happens at the end of 3, and 4 is how he does it. Book 1 is Paul stepping up to the stage, and Book 2 is him rejecting the cost required to be that figure. 3 is his son inheriting the position, and 4 is completing the plan to save humanity.

Everything after that is just sort of....more.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Mulva posted:

Book 4 is pretty much "The point". 3 is sort of an end and 4 is more of a coda. The entire goal of the politics and genetic engineering and the like was to create this super-human that could see a path for the continuation of humanity in the face of inevitable decline and extinction. That happens at the end of 3, and 4 is how he does it. Book 1 is Paul stepping up to the stage, and Book 2 is him rejecting the cost required to be that figure. 3 is his son inheriting the position, and 4 is completing the plan to save humanity.

Everything after that is just sort of....more.

I beg to disagree that the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu were engineering a Kwisatz Haderach to altruistically save the universe. It was a Cold War arms race, except in this case the nuclear weapon became sentient and went rogue.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Jewmanji posted:

I beg to disagree that the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu were engineering a Kwisatz Haderach to altruistically save the universe. It was a Cold War arms race, except in this case the nuclear weapon became sentient and went rogue.

You're kidding about the altruism part, right?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


it's a little of both. you can't manipulate and control an extinct species

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


phasmid posted:

You're kidding about the altruism part, right?

I think you misread my post. Iím saying that the BG and BT specifically donít have altruistic motives and are obviously horrifically insular cults whose prime directive is to preserve their power at all costs.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Jewmanji posted:

It was a Cold War arms race, except in this case the nuclear weapon became sentient and went rogue.

Dune: The Forbin Project

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Jewmanji posted:

I think you misread my post. Iím saying that the BG and BT specifically donít have altruistic motives and are obviously horrifically insular cults whose prime directive is to preserve their power at all costs.

My bad.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Jewmanji posted:

I beg to disagree that the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu were engineering a Kwisatz Haderach to altruistically save the universe. It was a Cold War arms race, except in this case the nuclear weapon became sentient and went rogue.

Oh I never mentioned altruism. The Bene Gesserit simply wanted a truly prescient being, one under their control, to take the Golden Lion Throne. It doesn't change that the end goal *was* a truly prescient being that could guide humanity. The problem with that, of course, is that at the end of the process is a truly prescient being that you've designed to guide humanity. And how the hell could you ever expect to control someone like that?

And of course the hilariously obvious answer is you don't. You don't for a second do even a single thing they can't see coming, and every aspect of your existence is controlled by them. And there's nothing you can do about it. And so Leto gets everything he needs, if not everything he wants, and everyone does exactly what they are supposed to, and humanity is saved from a death by apathy. And that's literally every single driving issue in Dune up to that point wrapped up.

And the two books after that are, I don't know, "What if Space Nuns had gently caress powers and I got to write more about Duncan Idaho?", and the books after his death are "What if we made money?".

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



It really is a shame Momoa will only get to play Idaho prime.

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Nap Ghost

I'd be fine if Duncan becomes a ghost that only Paul can see, and advises him on how to pick up girls.

And... and maybe he could be shirtless the whole time, for no apparent reason.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


davidspackage posted:

I'd be fine if Duncan becomes a ghost that only Paul can see, and advises him on how to pick up girls.

And... and maybe he could be shirtless the whole time, for no apparent reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWirGxV7Q8

"Spoon!"
"Spicehead"

From "Muad'Dib: Conversations" by the Princess Irulan

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



phasmid posted:

All things considered, maybe that was the best way to go.

Yeah, the end result of the Golden Path is the Scattering, humanity spreading out in infinite directions and infinite ways across the universe. The events of books 5 and 6 play out against the backdrop and are ultimately irrelevant to the gajillions of people not involved in the war between the BG and HM. Bringing that conflict to a conclusion that (again) defines the fate of humanity is antithetical to the ending of God Emperor.

spanky the dolphin
Sep 3, 2006



This just popped up on my youtube feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIdV7AWd3ns

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Despite my best judgement, I decided to pick up Heretics for the first time (I read 1-4 for the first time several years ago and decided that was enough for me). The time jump between Children and God Emperor was really fascinating, all the more so because Herbert decided to lean deeply into the idea of cultural/technological stagnation. It makes sense that the world hasn't evolved much because Leto has deliberately maintained an iron grip on every facet of the Imperium.

But in Heretics, you'd think that after a similar time jump that some of these entities like the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu would've evolved into entirely new concepts, or otherwise been left behind by history. It'd be like if the Catholic Church maintained its same position of power, influence, tradition etc. for literally like 15,000 years or something. Like, the lack of development from Dune through God Emperor is perfectly explicable, but by all rights the world of Heretics should be unrecognizable. Like, the Tleilaxu are still making gholas of Duncan Idaho? Is it explained why Idaho is particularly useful as a ghola as the book goes on? His function as Hayt in Messiah makes perfect sense, and then Leto II keeping Idahos around for nostalgia makes sense, but what value does Idaho have to anyone who isn't Paul or Leto II? I guess I probably just need to keep reading but yeesh...

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

The answer is Duncan Idaho is his special OC DO NOT STEAL character. There is literally no reason he should be relevant after book two, and even that is pushing it, but he's right up there being super special to the very end. Why? gently caress if I know, he was basically irrelevant in life.

Pascallion
Sep 15, 2003
Man, what the fuck, man?

I always had an outsized impression of him, even before I read the sequels. I remember being surprised when I reread the book (and especially watched the Lynch movie) how early he gets killed.

Iím willing to attribute it entirely to Duncan Idaho being a pretty badass name.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Jewmanji posted:

But in Heretics, you'd think that after a similar time jump that some of these entities like the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu would've evolved into entirely new concepts, or otherwise been left behind by history. It'd be like if the Catholic Church maintained its same position of power, influence, tradition etc. for literally like 15,000 years or something. Like, the lack of development from Dune through God Emperor is perfectly explicable, but by all rights the world of Heretics should be unrecognizable.

It is - in the Scattering. The old Empire is pretty explicitly a small, stagnated backwater that no-one particularly gives a poo poo about.

Pascallion posted:

I always had an outsized impression of him, even before I read the sequels. I remember being surprised when I reread the book (and especially watched the Lynch movie) how early he gets killed.

Iím willing to attribute it entirely to Duncan Idaho being a pretty badass name.

Frank retconning when he died will have been part of that

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Nap Ghost

Mulva posted:

The answer is Duncan Idaho is his special OC DO NOT STEAL character. There is literally no reason he should be relevant after book two, and even that is pushing it, but he's right up there being super special to the very end. Why? gently caress if I know, he was basically irrelevant in life.

It's all in the hair.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


davidspackage posted:

It's all in the hair.



A minor Centauri noble?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Kim Jong Dunc.

Feldegast42
Oct 29, 2011



Ask yourself -- did Duncan Idaho get played by Jean Luc Picard? No? Well there you go

Meaty Ore
Dec 17, 2011

My God, it's full of cat pictures!


Waiting for the movie about his early military career, when he was just Private Idaho.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Well, if the Tleilaxu sell Duncan gholas to any Great House that wants one...

Riot Bimbo
Dec 28, 2006

Was ist das problem fraulein?


on kaitan they say there's a cliff face where a billion duncan idahos climb daily

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I imagine Duncan Idaho will not wear a shirt for some scenes.

Pascallion
Sep 15, 2003
Man, what the fuck, man?

Itís not like people always have shirts on in real life. Having him fully clothed would just be unrealistic...

Mierenneuker
Apr 28, 2010


We're all going to experience changes in our life but only the best of us will qualify for front row seats.



davidspackage posted:

It's all in the hair.



Which is very underwhelming compared to some of the wild cuts the Fremen in that game have (because they only have 3/4 sprites for random Fremen so they use hair to make them "unique").



Even ol' fishhead the Emperor knows what's up.

Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Aug 4, 2020

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Nap Ghost

Mierenneuker posted:

Which is very underwhelming compared to some of the wild cuts the Fremen in that game have (because they only have 3/4 sprites for random Fremen so they use hair to make them "unique").



Even ol' fishhead the Emperor knows what's up.



We saw you coming from the other sietch.

Mierenneuker
Apr 28, 2010


We're all going to experience changes in our life but only the best of us will qualify for front row seats.



davidspackage posted:

We saw you coming from the other sietch.

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB




Is that Dune 1?

Mierenneuker
Apr 28, 2010


We're all going to experience changes in our life but only the best of us will qualify for front row seats.



Vintersorg posted:

Is that Dune 1?

Yes, the strategy game in an adventure shell by Cryo Interactive. Forever trapped in licensing hell when it comes to a re-release, especially because the disc version featured footage from David Lynch's movie. Not that would stop someone on the internet.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Ich bin Deutschland und du auch

exmarx
Feb 18, 2012


https://twitter.com/RealChalamet/status/1291861260347351044

AwkwardKnob
Dec 29, 2004

A good pun is like a good steak: A rare medium well done

So.... what's up with the supervising art director stating that there's no worm in part 1? That was kind of a shock.

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Cacator
Aug 6, 2005

You're quite good at turning me on.



That would be a surprise, Villeneuve said it took them a year to design the worm. I don't think part 2 has even been greenlit yet.

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