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Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Capntastic posted:

I'm fairly certain at no point are the ultra-badass Sardaukar deathtroops from hellworld ever described visually at all. Because it's not important to their function in the story.

But film is a visual medium, so,

What we do get from the book Sardaukar can still be visually distinct and cool though. The ones that help in the attack on the Atreides compound are disguised as Harkonnens but there's quite a few official ones on Dune after to deal with the fallout of the Baron taking the place back so soon and to set an official record of why that's okay. That part of the book was interesting because of how they had to navigate the Emperor knowing of course that the Baron was pulling some poo poo and turning a blind eye but not letting him officially know they straight up used Sardaukar troops directly in the battle. But then the ones the Fremen battle in the latter part of the book are those Sardaukar straight up again and while some of them are dressed like some typical Dune resident their style gives them away, plus we see plenty of fully uniformed ones by the end.

Their uniform colors are grey/black but with lots of gold trim. And they all wear their hair long on the surface as an arrogance "Ha! We don't even need to be efficient we're just that much better than you already" thing but in reality to conceal extra small weapons.

This is something that does make them unique to me, more than the general "shields are common among the upper class so you gotta learn how to handle a blade the right way" mindset of the setting, the Sardaukar seem to be over-specialized around fighting against folks with personal shields. They have artillery but besides that almost all of their stuff is "kill someone at a slow speed up close" stuff like garrote wire and various throwing knives and poison dart/needle gun stuff. IIRC the hunter seeker while a known thing in general is something supplied by the Sardaukar too.

Anyway it's interesting to me because if you look at that stuff it's like they're less an army and more like how you'd show like an assassin or small death squad group in a movie.

So I think you could do some really cool stuff with that say during the attack you have Harkonnen troops but can clearly see some of said "Harkonnens" peppered throughout instead of just rolling around shooting people are these long-haired ruthless folks fighting more up close and with their own unique weaponry from the Harkonnens. And also they can repeat Paul's fight with Jamis and quickly adapting to how oh wait there's ho shield we gotta be fast and straight up kill each other immediately?? but of course not pulling it off since the Sardaukar are generally powerless against the Fremen in battle. I remember in the book it's a huge deal because they even capture a few Sardaukar alive and secure to study/learn everything about some of their artillery.

I don't know, I think a big part of why I'm so hopeful for a little more from the costumes is because you only have so much time with a movie, and you can get so much out of a character or faction's culture from how they dress, which they do have. Someone earlier commented that the point of the setting is that's stagnated and gone soft therefore everyone dresses boringly. It's the opposite - it's said outright that Caladan as an example is such a naturally pleasant world that it's made the Atreides go a bit soft.

And that's early on enough that it's clearly meant to parallel the machines taking over in the prologue imo. Which was something that, just from the book and forgetting the Kevin Anderson poo poo I always read as less a Terminator oh poo poo the machines are smart and people are using that to kill us thing and more of a the machines have made our lives so simple and sedentary that we're easily ruled and exploited kind of thing. Like if a robot's entire process was just Amazon Alexa/Nest/Facebook algorithms taken to an absolute extreme.

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moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.





I liked the trailer a lot!

Yadoppsi posted:

It actually seems like they are backing away from alot of the Islamic elements of the book. I hope its just a misdirect for the trailers and sneak peaks.

I noticed the trailer line was a crusade is coming, but remember it as a jihad in the book. That might actually resonate better in 2020, since Americans generally believe that terrible religious wars are things other people do.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

moths posted:

I liked the trailer a lot!


I noticed the trailer line was a crusade is coming, but remember it as a jihad in the book. That might actually resonate better in 2020, since Americans generally believe that terrible religious wars are things other people do.

Which is weird though, because uhhh... Crusades were absolutely a thing and I am not sure that’s a “gentler” word.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


AlternateAccount posted:

Which is weird though, because uhhh... Crusades were absolutely a thing and I am not sure that’s a “gentler” word.

It's not gentler but the connotations are different.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


As I said in the other thread, I don't think they'll get rid of the religious element altogether, especially since Islam (or rather a fusion of Islam and Buddhism) is intrinsic to the Fremen character. It's the source of their power and mystique. Though I wouldn't shy from them using the word "jihad" I can see why they might not.

Hashtag Banterzone
Dec 8, 2005


Lifetime Winner of the willkill4food Honorary Bad Posting Award in PWM

moths posted:

I liked the trailer a lot!


I noticed the trailer line was a crusade is coming, but remember it as a jihad in the book. That might actually resonate better in 2020, since Americans generally believe that terrible religious wars are things other people do.

I hope there's a bait and switch where the characters use crusade to start and then it slowly morphs into jihad as the fremen become more important to the story

Also I love Villanueve's attention to detail with the tomb/carving that Oscar Isaac is looking at and the packing scene.


Starks
Sep 24, 2006



Back in the day sci fi writers just took foreign words and customs to make their worlds seem "alien". Obviously this is looked down on, especially when it maps 1:1 to a specific culture. Star Wars is especially bad for that. I do think Dune does it a lot more respectfully but it's just a risk you don't want to take these days.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009



Schwarzwald posted:

It's not gentler but the connotations are different.

It's gentler to people from a Christian culture, it's somewhat different in the middle East.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

phasmid posted:

As I said in the other thread, I don't think they'll get rid of the religious element altogether, especially since Islam (or rather a fusion of Islam and Buddhism) is intrinsic to the Fremen character. It's the source of their power and mystique. Though I wouldn't shy from them using the word "jihad" I can see why they might not.

Yeah I imagine there's a good chance that "jihad" shows up in the movie, just not the trailer.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.





Yeah the idea is that the holy war is supposedly waged in Atrades' interests but against their will.

Paul's describing an "us" problem, not "the foreigners" as jihad would read in 2020.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Starks posted:

Back in the day sci fi writers just took foreign words and customs to make their worlds seem "alien". Obviously this is looked down on, especially when it maps 1:1 to a specific culture. Star Wars is especially bad for that. I do think Dune does it a lot more respectfully but it's just a risk you don't want to take these days.

Why is taking it on a "risk" necessarily? I think thematically it works because Herbert himself said that Dune had a lot of metaphor. Making the Fremen Christian for instance would feel completely off, because the Empire doesn't represent the Roman Empire as much as the American.

e. Like, the story in the fist book (sociopolitically) is mostly just a big critique of colonialism

phasmid fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Sep 10, 2020

Starks
Sep 24, 2006



phasmid posted:

Why is taking it on a "risk" necessarily? I think thematically it works because Herbert himself said that Dune had a lot of metaphor. Making the Fremen Christian for instance would feel completely off, because the Empire doesn't represent the Roman Empire as much as the American.

e. Like, the story in the fist book (sociopolitically) is mostly just a big critique of colonialism

I totally agree, and the word Jihad specifically is fine IMO because it's an english word as well now. I do think that all the fake arabic and hebrew words in the book can trigger a backlash and accusations of either appropriation or xenophobia. The fact that there are no actual muslim actors in the main cast won't help. But then again they let Star Wars 9 have a bunch of dancing african aliens so maybe I'm overestimating hollywood studios' fears of getting cancelled.

I probably should've quoted the post I was thinking of when I was responding because it wasn't so much the "Jihad" debate as it was this:

Yadoppsi posted:

It actually seems like they are backing away from alot of the Islamic elements of the book. I hope its just a misdirect for the trailers and sneak peaks.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Starks posted:

I totally agree, and the word Jihad specifically is fine IMO because it's an english word as well now. I do think that all the fake arabic and hebrew words in the book can trigger a backlash and accusations of either appropriation or xenophobia. The fact that there are no actual muslim actors in the main cast won't help. But then again they let Star Wars 9 have a bunch of dancing african aliens so maybe I'm overestimating hollywood studios' fears of getting cancelled.

Personally, I hope they keep enough of the religious aspect to make sense of the thing. It would be hard explaining the prophecy without the uniquely Fremen perspective. And although people might be annoyed that none of the leads are actually Muslim, you don't have to be a Scot to play MacBeth either.

All I can say of Star Wars is that it will forever be an homage to old pulp comics, so the racism is kinda just baked in.

GORDON
Jan 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy


God created Arrakis to train the faithful.

thats not candy
Mar 10, 2010



Hell Gem

sethsez posted:

It's a Reluctant Chosen One sci-fi story centered on a royal pretty boy trying to navigate the machinations of powers far larger than himself, complete with special fighting styles, Friends To The End, and big action set pieces. Sci-fi has been pillaging from Dune for years and YA sci-fi is no exception, so the resemblance was inevitable to some degree.

totally, the first book hits on a lot of YA themes and its probably why its like the most popular and best selling sci fi novel. I first read it when I was 14 or 15 and it instantly became my favorite of all time. Surpassed only by children and god emperor, both of which also have young adults as protagonists coming to age.

Hope the movie does well enough we get messiah and children sequels. As mediocre as the scifi miniseries were, at least they tried. Not sure we'll ever see god emperor just due to the absurd nightmare fuel of letoworm but i can dream.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



ViLlEnEuVe DoEsN't UsE cOlOr

https://twitter.com/cedfunches/status/1304080076925853696

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Yeah, in the books they're Zensunni, a syncretism of existing religion into something new in the far future.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

thats not candy posted:

Hope the movie does well enough we get messiah and children sequels. As mediocre as the scifi miniseries were, at least they tried. Not sure we'll ever see god emperor just due to the absurd nightmare fuel of letoworm but i can dream.

Sci-Fi Dune was uh, I liked some things about it but dang. Honestly thought I though their Mesiah/Children of Dune adaptation overall was fine. Some bizarre casting decisions though. The guy they got for Stilgar in Children of Dune as an example was insanely out of place.

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



Someone in one of the threads pointed out that Dune 2000 costumes were supposed to be retro-future in a mid 60s original star trek way which I buy

The whole thing is on youtube in two parts and I think it's decent enough to watch

thats not candy
Mar 10, 2010



Hell Gem

Neo Rasa posted:

Sci-Fi Dune was uh, I liked some things about it but dang. Honestly thought I though their Mesiah/Children of Dune adaptation overall was fine. Some bizarre casting decisions though. The guy they got for Stilgar in Children of Dune as an example was insanely out of place.

Yeah I liked their children of dune series but probably because i just love the setting and it helps to have james mcavoy. berkoff as stilgar was weird. ian mcneice did really well through both dune and the children series

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008



thats not candy posted:

totally, the first book hits on a lot of YA themes and its probably why its like the most popular and best selling sci fi novel. I first read it when I was 14 or 15 and it instantly became my favorite of all time. Surpassed only by children and god emperor, both of which also have young adults as protagonists coming to age.

Hope the movie does well enough we get messiah and children sequels. As mediocre as the scifi miniseries were, at least they tried. Not sure we'll ever see god emperor just due to the absurd nightmare fuel of letoworm but i can dream.

I absolutely read it first when I was 14 or 15 and thought it was a decent if slightly weird at times space fantasy epic, and then when I came back to it at 18-19 I had the 'ooh, Spice is oil' moment and realised why it's had such a long life.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Ingmar terdman posted:

Someone in one of the threads pointed out that Dune 2000 costumes were supposed to be retro-future in a mid 60s original star trek way which I buy

The whole thing is on youtube in two parts and I think it's decent enough to watch

Yeah it's definitely intentional, before it came out they were pretty open about how as they were developing they figured if they were going to have an lol level budget they were going to own it and emphasize the staginess of everything as much as possible. And to their credit it does work but the parts where that mini-series falls it falls hard. I'd still recommend anyone who likes Dune checks it out.

The Children of Dune one was a lot better overall though, they sort of went to the other extreme you could tell they had a bigger budget so we got, like, an entire five minute fully CG scene of a worm being captured when that's like a one off sentence that doesn't even really lead to anything in the book, the CG alien tigers, etc. But it was good stuff.

Ian McNiece is so awesome in both of them. I loved what he did with the material so much and his little rhyming asides, absolutely awesome. :perfect:

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



Yeah the scifi baron owns. Children of Dune is very difficult to find online but I'd like to see how they handle the messiah portion in particular

WithoutTheFezOn
Aug 28, 2005
Oh no

Ingmar terdman posted:

Children of Dune is very difficult to find online
Hoopla if you have a library card and your library supports it.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Ingmar terdman posted:

Yeah the scifi baron owns. Children of Dune is very difficult to find online but I'd like to see how they handle the messiah portion in particular

It's on Vimeo right now depending on what country you're in:

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/childrenofdune/

They let you do a free trial so get your VPN situation in order and go for it!

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



https://twitter.com/NMamatas/status/1303786629794996225

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB





Wait are we talking about the Dune 2000 game cinematics? Weren't they just all Lynch stuff?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT5snfvxDdc

Last King
Sep 29, 2007

In corporate R'lyeh, Cthulhu works you.



Fun Shoe

Vintersorg posted:

Wait are we talking about the Dune 2000 game cinematics? Weren't they just all Lynch stuff?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT5snfvxDdc

man, this brings back some good memories...

missing the ordos :smith:

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



Sorry I ment Dune 2000 as in the scifi miniseries

Simiain
Dec 13, 2005

"BAM! The ole fork in the eye!!"

Apropos of nothing, one of the few mental images that survived the transition from my childhood brain to my 38 year old all-grown-up brain is a pustulent Harrkonen floating around tearing heartplugs out of people. Whatever its faults might be, Lynch's movie absolutely made an impression on me.

Rando
Mar 11, 2004

by Fluffdaddy


fuckmaybe I'm just on stoned but I think they shose that particular Floyd song because "all that is now and all that is gone and all that's to come" mirrors the kwitsach haderach's total knowledge of human history and "everything under the sun" is a "it is a dessert lol"

Yadoppsi
May 10, 2009


Starks posted:


I probably should've quoted the post I was thinking of when I was responding because it wasn't so much the "Jihad" debate as it was this:

Yadoppsi posted:

It actually seems like they are backing away from alot of the Islamic elements of the book. I hope its just a misdirect for the trailers and sneak peaks.


To expand, one of the reasons that part of the story is important to me is my partner isn't a big sci-fi fan let alone of full length novels but I got him to try and end up enjoying the original book by hyping up the heavily coded Bedouin/Arab characters being heroic badasses on the side of the protagonist. Its just not something he gets to see represented in alot of English language media.

Part of the reason this works is Frank has such a staccato and terse prose wrt descriptions so the imagination can run wild. Film as a medium just can't do that vague ambiguity the same way.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.




Herbert was fantastic at letting a weird detail or turn of phrase do a lot of heavy lifting. You never really get a sense of what the Guild Navigators look like in their glass tanks, but you feel like you do.

The phrase “Orange Catholic Bible” is one hell of an implication all by itself.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


Am I the only one who thinks the first book has a very different vibe from all the others? The sequels all read like way more "normal" sci-fi, even as they introduce crazy poo poo like worm-human hybrids and clones and whatever the mind control by sex women... thing... was.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Herbert was fantastic at letting a weird detail or turn of phrase do a lot of heavy lifting. You never really get a sense of what the Guild Navigators look like in their glass tanks, but you feel like you do.

The phrase “Orange Catholic Bible” is one hell of an implication all by itself.

I thought in the first book the navigators are just fat guys with blue eyes and he decided to make them weird mutants after that.

First time I saw a visual depiction was Barlowe's guide to extraterrestrials and even though his is more accurate to the description I think Lynch's is so much cooler.

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


MY WIFE has gone to bed early, so gonna drink wine and watch LynchDune tonight, because why the gently caress not.

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009

Plague Champion


Groovelord Neato posted:

I thought in the first book the navigators are just fat guys with blue eyes and he decided to make them weird mutants after that.

First time I saw a visual depiction was Barlowe's guide to extraterrestrials and even though his is more accurate to the description I think Lynch's is so much cooler.
In the first book it says no one even knows what the navigators look like because no one from the spacing guild allows themselves to be seen by anyone outside the guild. They employ other people who handle interface with their ships for customers/passengers. No one has seen a member of the spacing guild in centuries.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



There's also the bit where one of the guild representatives (maybe a navigator?) at the end loses a contact lens and tries to cover up his blue eye, which in isolation feels like a big twist reveal.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

sean10mm posted:

Am I the only one who thinks the first book has a very different vibe from all the others? The sequels all read like way more "normal" sci-fi, even as they introduce crazy poo poo like worm-human hybrids and clones and whatever the mind control by sex women... thing... was.

The first one has this a lot of ultra heroic and epic feel to a lot of the prose which given what the book is about gives it a really unique feel imo compared to the others. Hell the Baron's internal monologues alone make it stand out from the others.

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porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


The first book has a fun adventure plot and cool political intrigue (at least the first 2/3rds). Herbert wasn't a particularly great writer though and there's not much of interest in the subsequent novels.

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