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Anne Frank Funk
Nov 4, 2008



porfiria posted:

The first book has a fun adventure plot and cool political intrigue (at least the first 2/3rds). Herbert wasn't a particularly great writer though and there's not much of interest in the subsequent novels.

phew, what a hot take

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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008



Strom Cuzewon posted:

There's also the bit where one of the guild representatives (maybe a navigator?) at the end loses a contact lens and tries to cover up his blue eye, which in isolation feels like a big twist reveal.

Its a plot point that I'm not entirely convinced by, because the implication is that The Guild has been buying enormous amounts of spice since forever but nobody has ever noticed or asked what for.

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


Ha, I'd completely forgotten that in the Lynch film, ultra-badass fan fave Duncan Idaho (played by, um, the national security advisor from The Hunt For Red October? Yeah, I didn't recognise him either) appears in like three scenes and is merked by some random Harkonnen soldier in five seconds flat.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

I think the implication was that the Spacing guild acquired all of their spice off the books, because they can just blockade anyone who tried to out them, so nobody even knew they were a big consumer of it, much less that spice was the key ingredient to the navigators ability to perform space folding.

as far as the navigator's appearance - there are spacing guild dudes in the first book who seem fairly normal, aside from the spice eyes, but I don't think they're explicitly identified as Navigators, and Messiah has a navigator as a major character and he's explicitly a mutant fishman confined to a spice tank. I remember reading somewhere that Herbert actually really liked the imagery from Jodorowsky and Lynch of the Navigators not just being flippery dudes but full on horrific whalepeople, and brought that into the books at some point? Last time I read children, God Emperor or Chapterhouse was like 15 years ago so I can't remember if there's any truth to that.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

Vintersorg posted:

Wait are we talking about the Dune 2000 game cinematics? Weren't they just all Lynch stuff?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT5snfvxDdc

They licensed some things from the film but not everything. So Paul looks like Kyle MacLachlan and Jessica is Francesca Annis but Leto, Gurney, Yueh, etc. all look way different.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

I think the implication was that the Spacing guild acquired all of their spice off the books, because they can just blockade anyone who tried to out them, so nobody even knew they were a big consumer of it, much less that spice was the key ingredient to the navigators ability to perform space folding.

In addition to that, the guild has a monopoly on space travel. No one would be surprised to learn that they have a lot of spice, since spice is used as a form of currency and the guild is incredibly wealthy.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008



Payndz posted:

Ha, I'd completely forgotten that in the Lynch film, ultra-badass fan fave Duncan Idaho (played by, um, the national security advisor from The Hunt For Red October? Yeah, I didn't recognise him either) appears in like three scenes and is merked by some random Harkonnen soldier in five seconds flat.

Duncan Idaho is Syrio Forel except the author didn't have the will to leave him dead.

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


Anne Frank Funk posted:

phew, what a hot take

I don't think it's that hot. Dune is seminal sci fi, no doubt about it, but Herbert's weird perspective issues weaken a lot of his scenes, for example.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






The guild rep with the emperor in Dune is explicitly identified by Paul as a Navigator, so the mutant thing was a bit of a retcon. Presumably to the ones in Dune being early-stage and mutants late-stage.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Alchenar posted:

Its a plot point that I'm not entirely convinced by, because the implication is that The Guild has been buying enormous amounts of spice since forever but nobody has ever noticed or asked what for.

I don't think it implies that people don't know about the Guild buying and hoarding Spice. I take the implication to be that the Guild isn't just using its spice in small doses like the nobles do to extend their lives or moderate doses like the BG does to trigger their ancestral visions. The Guild are dosing on Spice as much as the Fremen to the point where they're infused with it.

MikeJF posted:

The guild rep with the emperor in Dune is explicitly identified by Paul as a Navigator, so the mutant thing was a bit of a retcon. Presumably to the ones in Dune being early-stage and mutants late-stage.

Yeah, recall that Edric, the named Guild Navigator from Messiah is a "Third Stage Guild Navigator." And the only reason why the other conspirators get to see him is that he needs to be present to shield them from Paul's foresight.

TerminalSaint
Apr 20, 2007


Where must we go...

we who wander this Wasteland in search of our better selves?


Regarding the color grading, the light being harsh and colors washed out could be something pulled from the book. Arrakis orbits a white sun. When Jessica enters the conservatory she's surprised by the soft yellow light provided by the filter glass, and later on Drunken Idaho slurs out about how the sun's too bright and nothing has the right color.

unlimited shrimp
Aug 30, 2008



Vintersorg posted:

Wait are we talking about the Dune 2000 game cinematics? Weren't they just all Lynch stuff?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT5snfvxDdc
I got a new computer to play this when it came out because my old system couldn't handle it.

Choices.

Goblin Craft
Feb 12, 2002



Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

I think the implication was that the Spacing guild acquired all of their spice off the books, because they can just blockade anyone who tried to out them, so nobody even knew they were a big consumer of it, much less that spice was the key ingredient to the navigators ability to perform space folding.

as far as the navigator's appearance - there are spacing guild dudes in the first book who seem fairly normal, aside from the spice eyes, but I don't think they're explicitly identified as Navigators, and Messiah has a navigator as a major character and he's explicitly a mutant fishman confined to a spice tank. I remember reading somewhere that Herbert actually really liked the imagery from Jodorowsky and Lynch of the Navigators not just being flippery dudes but full on horrific whalepeople, and brought that into the books at some point? Last time I read children, God Emperor or Chapterhouse was like 15 years ago so I can't remember if there's any truth to that.

Lynch's film came out in 1984 so probably only Heretics and Chapterhouse would have that influence, if any is present. I don't know when Jodo's was in production though. God Emperor came out in 1981 so maybe?

Bugblatter
Aug 4, 2003
Belgium!

Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Lynch's film came out in 1984 so probably only Heretics and Chapterhouse would have that influence, if any is present. I don't know when Jodo's was in production though. God Emperor came out in 1981 so maybe?

Jodorowskyís version began development in 1974 and was largely storyboarded and designed within that year. The development of Lynchís version also took several years and thereís a bit of continuity and crossover of some design work between his version and Jodorowskyís.

Anything after Messiah *could* have been influenced by the films, though itís hard to say for sure without direct quotes from Herbert himself. Itís certainly interesting that all the weirdest poo poo shows up in the novels written after Jodorowky had shown him his version, though.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



I think Edric from Messiah may be the only fishy navigator who appears in the books. Maybe one shows up to negotiate (beg) for more spice in one of the later books.

Goblin Craft
Feb 12, 2002



Oh, had no idea Jodo's was that early. For some reason I thought the fact some design crossover occurred meant they were a lot more contemporaneous.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Messiah is as good and important as the original: it's basically the second half. The rest I can take or leave.

Wizchine
Sep 17, 2007

Television is the retina
of the mind's eye.


I seldom reread books, but I've read Dune three times. The first time I followed it with the other five. But the last two times I've only followed it up with Messiah.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Counterpoint: Herbert is a good author and if people find him mundane it might just be that he's been imitated so much by the sf/fantasy crowd.

He wrote a lot of good non-Dune stuff too. But as always, I think people don't much like his later stuff because the Paul story continues into dark territory (cosmic fatalism, genocide, etc.) If that's the case, they're reading the first Dune book all wrong. Paul isn't a hero, he just plays one on tv.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010



Soiled Meat

I would love a part 2 to this upcoming movie that does the last third of OG Dune + all of Messiah, but that would be the worst case of "oh you thought the movie was ending now?" since Return of the King.

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Nap Ghost

I wonder if Villeneuve will be able to tie a somewhat satisfying end to his movie, since it's only the first half. I feel like it's going to be drat hard, if it ends somewhere with Paul joining the Fremen and all his enemies having 'won.'

FBS
Apr 27, 2015

The real fun of living wisely is that you get to be smug about it.



Not getting exterminated and being accepted into a society of uncounted guerrilla freedom fighters seems like a pretty optimistic ending imo

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

I predict a sorta semi cliffhanger, probably ending after Duncan Idaho sacrifices himself to save their lives.

FBS
Apr 27, 2015

The real fun of living wisely is that you get to be smug about it.



Maxwell Lord posted:

I predict a sorta semi cliffhanger, probably ending after Duncan Idaho sacrifices himself to save their lives.

IMO there is enough footage in the trailer to points to the ending being after Paul kills Jamis. It looks like they combined the initial Paul/Jessica meet Stilgar's band with the Jamis fight in the same scene. Paul salutes with a crysknife; there's shots of him in that canyon wearing a stillsuit with a bloody nose; there's a very brief shot of Paul in combat putting a knife to a black actor's neck; there's another shot of Fremen patting a shell-shocked-looking bloody-nosed Paul on the shoulder as he walks by in slow motion.

That was already the rumored division point and based on the trailer footage I can't see any other way of ending the film.

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

I just hope part 2 actually gets made

After BR2049 I thought the chances of this being green lit were zero, so I donít know how much money this one has to make for them to continue.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Gonna commit Dune sacrilege here by stating that Duncan Idaho is not that important of a character.

Don't come at me about the Scattering.

FBS
Apr 27, 2015

The real fun of living wisely is that you get to be smug about it.



phasmid posted:

Gonna commit Dune sacrilege here by stating that Duncan Idaho is not that important of a character.

Don't come at me about the Scattering.

My hot take is that the trailer is the first time he 'clicked' for me so that I understood why God Emperor Dunc would bother to keep him around because he is all kinds of kick-rear end in the trailer

Rando
Mar 11, 2004

by Fluffdaddy


I hate Duncan Idaho's name. It's always put me in mind of an ambient temperature mayonnaise salad from a midwestern July 4th picnic.

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that Indiana Jones' nane is ment as a tribute to the character.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Dunkiní Idaho

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



David D. Davidson posted:

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that Indiana Jones' nane is ment as a tribute to the character.

Iíve never heard this, but I have heard that Indiana was factually the name of an Alaskan Malamute that George Lucas had. (The characterís name was originally Indiana Smith before they changed it to Jones.)

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

I don't have any real proof. I just know Jorodowsky's plan for his Dune movie plus the novel had an influence on the original Star Wars.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


david_a posted:

I just hope part 2 actually gets made

After BR2049 I thought the chances of this being green lit were zero, so I donít know how much money this one has to make for them to continue.

Iím pretty sure I read that Villeneuve has already been guaranteed that heíll get to make part 2.

Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Yam Slacker

Steve Yun posted:

Dunkin’ Idaho
"Buy the cup, free coffee refills!*"

*For the rest of the day.

moths
Aug 25, 2004







I expect that the first movie would end with Beast Rabban getting replaced with Feyd, since it'll look like a victory but then oops no.

Plus that comes around the two years when Paul goes into hiding with the Fremen, so you kind of get the Empire Strikes Back vibe that there's a lot more work to do.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010



Soiled Meat

Xealot posted:

I’ve never heard this, but I have heard that Indiana was factually the name of an Alaskan Malamute that George Lucas had. (The character’s name was originally Indiana Smith before they changed it to Jones.)

Are you saying that he named the dog Indiana

The_Doctor posted:

I’m pretty sure I read that Villeneuve has already been guaranteed that he’ll get to make part 2.

God I hope so, my biggest fear with this movie is that it has a poor showing in theaters due to Plague Helltimes and they pull the plug on a planned part 2, unless they were shooting them simultaneously like the Lord of the Rings movies or something.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




"Duncan Idaho" is a name that should be lame as gently caress but for whatever reason ends up badass sounding.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Duncan Idaho just stands out as a little too normal amongst all the names like Feyd and Harkonnen and Gurney Halleck.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Yeah it really sticks out among all the bizarre and extremely alien Atreides names like Paul, Jessica, Leto, Alia, etc.

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Class Warcraft
Apr 27, 2006




Neo Rasa posted:

Yeah it really sticks out among all the bizarre and extremely alien Atreides names like Paul, Jessica, Leto, Alia, etc.

Where do you live that Leto and Alia are common names?

Duncan Idaho is a great name because it sounds like a type of potato. "When you get to the store make sure to pick up some of those Duncan Idaho taters!"

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