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David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

I'd say bring back Sting.

And this time don't pussy out on the dong shot.

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Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



My uncle works at ILM and he says they are doing a digital Dali for the emperor

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007




Mr. Villeneuve, do the right thing you coward.

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Ingmar terdman posted:

My uncle works at ILM and he says they are doing a digital Dali for the emperor

Have to say, not totally against this idea.

I really hope someday we get an animated adaptation of the Jodorowsky movie. Probably the only way it could ever have gotten made in any form.

DarkSol
May 18, 2006

Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines.

Chairman Capone posted:

Have to say, not totally against this idea.

I really hope someday we get an animated adaptation of the Jodorowsky movie. Probably the only way it could ever have gotten made in any form.

I want to live in the universe where the animated version of The Incal got greenlit and put out in cinemas.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I'd watch the gently caress out of an animated Incal. Though also, John Difool is a pretty insufferable protagonist. Deepo is the real MVP. And the Metabaron is cool...I'm in it for them and the jellyfish ocean planet. And the guy with a German shepherd's head. Really everyone but the lead, I think.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.



TheOmegaWalrus posted:

In veering us slightly back into topic- test screenings have confirmed that neither Fayd nor the Padishah Emperor will be showing up in person in the first part.

Continuing with the tangent- if a miracle happens and part two is made, anyone besides David Lynch as Emperor is grave miscast.

Would you accept Jodorowsky?

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019




:killing:


Wernor Herzog because his voice is incredible

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Herzog should voice any guild navigators.


Jodorowsky should play the ghost of Liet-Kynes' father when they're tripping out in the desert before they die. I saw him speak once and holy loving poo poo that can that guy rant about climate change. Like don't even write dialogue for him just turn on the camera and be like "So Mr. Jodorowsky I noticed it's a little warmer today than yesterday-" and he'll pop off for like three hours.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Maxwell Lord posted:

Victor Hugo begs to differ.

So does Wayne Booth.

As for whether Leto II is an unreliable narrator, the main text of God Emperor is framed as the journals discovered at Dar es Balat long after his death, so one could argue that they are his honest ethical perspective because he has no reason to lie to himself, rendering him a reliable narrator. Yet at the same time, the entire series frames all rulers as ethically suspect, rendering him unreliable. He is literally a monster and his reign is monstrous, and we should question his means and how he presents them.

But he is the first to acknowledge both of these things, and the opening chapter establishes that humans after his reign are free to debate and argue the history of his reign, something that is implicitly contrasted against his own silencing of historians, so his ends appear to justify his means (especially when you also consider the advent of Siona's gene) and his assessment of them is correct. And we're back to him being reliable.

Dune does a lot to muddy questions about reliability, offering you a lot of faux paratexts to read against its main texts. Each chapter opens with one. The narrator is always implied to be someone who exists in the story world, and the novels are very much about how people can use narratives to manipulate each other. Yet at the same time, the novels also contain a lot of direct interiority through italicized internal monolog, and that is presented as the true thoughts of these characters, full of self doubt and questioning. And once again we're left wondering if our narrators are to be taken reliably or not. I'd argue that Dune is specifically creating this confusion as part of its whole interrogation of the hero narrative.

As for whether the homophobia that appears in Dune reflects Herbert's own views, yeah, probably. He seems to consider homosexuality some kind of deviance, but also one that naturally arises under certain social conditions.

Wizchine
Sep 17, 2007

Television is the retina
of the mind's eye.


I think normally it would be more instructive to look outside of the Dune books alone to try to discern his views on any particular subject. Certainly the idea of sex as something purely biological and for procreation becomes something monstrous in Hellstrom's Hive, for instance. That said, of all the topics that seemed to fascinate Herbert and which he wrote about frequently, sex and sexuality doesn't seem to rank very high.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Yeah, good point. I'm only really familiar with Dune and its sequels. His only other work I've read is The Jesus Incident.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


PeterWeller posted:

As for whether Leto II is an unreliable narrator, the main text of God Emperor is framed as the journals discovered at Dar es Balat long after his death, so one could argue that they are his honest ethical perspective because he has no reason to lie to himself, rendering him a reliable narrator.

Except he knows that they will be found, so as much as anything else they're being made for a future generation

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



MrL_JaKiri posted:

Except he knows that they will be found, so as much as anything else they're being made for a future generation

Yeah, good point. I forgot he addresses them to their eventual reader. So one could argue that they're apologia. But then we're up against them not reading like apologia. Leto is open about his and his reign's monstrosity, he speaks of his failures and regrets, and he presents his death at the hands of Siona and Duncan as a good thing. And once again, we're at Leto reliability being muddied.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


I think as far as the histories go, he'd want to get the main outline right. After all, he wasn't concerned with being liked or anything like that. The only thing that would call the reliability of the crystal papers would be his occasional piques (from bursts of laughter to homicidal rage) that were probably caused by A) being a collective being merged with a primate and B) being a primate with tens of thousands of people in his skull, all under the sway of a "dominant" personality matrix which has to be ever-vigilant lest it be possessed.

So, grain of salt, yeah.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


In the first book he sets up Irulan as this authority on Muad'dib and then in the second book has Chani recast it all by saying Irulan's writing is self-aggrandizement for a woman who is essentially the old maid of the court. Irulan is Muad-dib's self-appointed hagiographer because she can trade on her sham marriage to create a prestigious identity in the outside world.

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Mar 2, 2021

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020

by Athanatos


I thought he did that in the first book, when Paul tells Chani that it was a political marriage and history would recognize them as lovers?

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


VinylonUnderground posted:

I thought he did that in the first book, when Paul tells Chani that it was a political marriage and history would recognize them as lovers?

You can be an authority on someone without being married to them in fact as well as name!

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

So I didn't have to dig up that grave and kidnap a priest before writing my book on Charles V?

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Arglebargle III posted:

In the first book he sets up Irulan as this authority on Muad'dib and then in the second book has Chani recast it all by saying Irulan's writing is self-aggrandizement for a woman who is essentially the old maid of the court. Irulan is Muad-dib's self-appointed hagiographer because she can trade on her sham marriage to create a prestigious identity in the outside world.

Irulan does write authoritative works on Muad'dib. Chani has strong personal reasons for disliking and diminishing her. Irulan doesn't need to trade on her sham marriage to create prestige. She already has it as the former emperor's daughter. Indeed, the sham marriage exists so Paul can trade on her prestige and title to legitimize his own rule.

That's not to say that Irulan is certainly reliable, but that Chani's assessment is Chani's assessment, not Herbert's.

Also, it's important to remember that Irulan comes around and becomes completely devoted to Paul and Chani's children. And there are inverse parallels between her sham marriage to Paul and her nephew's appointment as Ghanima's concubine. They both become historians of the Atreides. Irulan becomes the seminal and authoritative one. Farad'n becomes the official one as Harq al Ada.


VinylonUnderground posted:

I thought he did that in the first book, when Paul tells Chani that it was a political marriage and history would recognize them as lovers?

It's Jessica who tells Chani that history will remember them as wives. It's the final line of Dune and reminds you one last time before the appendices that this story could be told in different ways by different people.

RestingB1tchFace
Jul 3, 2016


No matter how many times I watch Lynch's Dune....I'll never quit being amazed it. Mostly by how Lynch was given a major budget to create a movie (that very often looked like it had no budget) which would be impossible to follow by anyone who's never read the book. Insert the goofy inner dialogues and the extremely jarring cuts....and you have to wonder if any of this was on purpose. Not to mention the world making GBS threads space worm.

RestingB1tchFace fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Mar 27, 2021

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



I feel like there's a masterpiece somewhere in that film, and you can see glimmers of it here and there. And it's exciting and awesome because you know you're watching a filmmaker shoot for the moon - and ultimately miss. But it's a pretty goddamn magnificent failure.

I feel like Lynch wanted to make some kind of sci-fi Lawrence of Arabia, and the studio wanted a by-the-numbers Star Wars-esque money-maker. It's a shame we'll never really know what Lynch's real vision for that film would have looked like.

Custard Undies
Jan 7, 2006

#essereFerrari





It has a fantastic soundtrack by Toto though!

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

Has anybody watched the fan edit of Lynchís Dune that came out somewhat recently? Not sure what itís actually called - Redux? Spice Diver? Itís on YouTube currently. Itís 3 hours so not exactly something Iíll just watch on a lark.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

RestingB1tchFace posted:

No matter how many times I watch Lynch's Dune....I'll never quit being amazed it. Mostly by how Lynch was given a major budget to create a movie (that very often looked like it had no budget) which would be impossible to follow by anyone who's never read the book. Insert the goofy inner dialogues and the extremely jarring cuts....and you have to wonder if any of this was on purpose. Not to mention the world making GBS threads space worm.

kaworu posted:

I feel like there's a masterpiece somewhere in that film, and you can see glimmers of it here and there. And it's exciting and awesome because you know you're watching a filmmaker shoot for the moon - and ultimately miss. But it's a pretty goddamn magnificent failure.

I feel like Lynch wanted to make some kind of sci-fi Lawrence of Arabia, and the studio wanted a by-the-numbers Star Wars-esque money-maker. It's a shame we'll never really know what Lynch's real vision for that film would have looked like.




I'd say this fan edit is the best version of the movie and absolutely worth watching. It really brings out all of the best parts of what Lynch did with it, but also the movie's flaws. You can see how the third act, like it really falls apart in the third act in general and looks the cheapest there and I doubt any cut of what was filmed would have nailed the third act because of that. But I absolutely loved this version of the movie compared to the others:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJykw3H4PDw


Also notable because unlike the Alan Smithee version it's not just longer because of them repeating the footage of folks landing on Giedi-Prime and walking down those stairs like four times and stuff like that. There's footage and shots that aren't in any officially released version in this and even a few very minor newly made bits. Lot of genuinely respectful work was put into making this cut good. I love it.


I think a big part of what makes the final act so bad (for me) is how they set this huge epic mega-battle of battles, but then so much of it is conveyed via the Emperor and his generals on those monitor console things in that one room which was a huge mistake to me. If they didn't have the budget to have an insane amount of extras running around stabbing/shooting each other in a coherent way they should have done what the 80s Henry V did and kept it focused on a much smaller group and done something coherent with them instead.

Then again, in the book the major battles are simple affairs with not a lot of page time, compared to the much more detailed one on one dueling. I'm curious to see what kind of balance Villenueve goes for with that.

Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 27, 2021

Anne Frank Funk
Nov 4, 2008



No cut can remove the weirding modules so there is no good lynch dune cut

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


I like how the Giger design for Giedi Prime were reused in Prometheus.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


MonsieurChoc posted:

I like how the Giger design for Giedi Prime were reused in Prometheus.

I feel like almost everything was reused for Prometheus. They even had RoBowie.

RestingB1tchFace
Jul 3, 2016


Anne Frank Funk posted:

No cut can remove the weirding modules so there is no good lynch dune cut

This is truth.


I think the main issue is that Dune wasn't meant to be cramped into a two-hour movie. That's just not enough time to cover everything....which is why the jarring cuts and the hyper accelerated plot movement was basically necessary. The sci-fi miniseries clocked in at about four and a half hours. Much smaller budget....but I think it actually captures the book pretty well. Even so....it's still abbreviated.

I'm interested to see what they do with the films. Was it determined that it would be split into two? We'll see. I still think the source material is much better fit for a television series. Really had hoped that HBO would have picked it up. Then they could have continued on into the other books if they had wanted.

Related note....hoping that HBO or someone get the rights for Hyperion.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



I'm actually not sure if everyone really understands just what happened in that 1984 production of Dune - it happened a long time ago, and I wouldn't really blame anyone for forgetting.

Anyway, back then Lynch had only made two extremely different films: the wildly unconventional Eraserhead, and the surprisingly conventional The Elephant Man but had developed an extraordinary buzz around himself, mostly because of the former film , of course - Stanley Kubrick's favorite, don't you know! So everyone wanted to give Lynch a ton of money to direct their big-budget film and do brilliant things with it - he was even approached by George Lucas to direct Return of the Jedi during this time - what a hoot that meeting must have been.

So Lynch winds up in the early '80s with Dino De Laurentis' production company, and they absolutely believe that they are "making Star Wars for grown-ups" and that this will be like the first part of a trilogy, and an action-packed two-hour sci-fi extravaganza. But they apparently didn't discuss this with Lynch, who is painstakingly working on the script through seven different drafts and trying to construct this 3-hour-long spiritual epic in the desert with a very firm ending and resolution - and this is not what the production company wants at all. So after Lynch finishes production on the film he wanted to make, the studio more or less kicked him out of the editing process and denied him any influence in the final cut unless he went along with their releasing a version 136 minutes long that was not at all the film Lynch thought he'd been making. So he does this, and they condense a bunch of stuff via ham-handed voice-over narration and filming some abbreviated scenes. It cuts the life out of the film and destroys the pacing, as is obvious. Later on, a truly horrific 186-minute extended edition of the film (not a director's cut) was released on television, which offended Lynch so much he insisted any mention of his name be replaced with "Alan Smithee."

Lynch still refuses to talk about the process of filming Dune, and I can understand that he takes his art pretty seriously - and he should. I think that was the last time he ever just "took someones word" and didn't insist on ironclad final cut in any future contract he signed, so he learned his lesson, at least. Even if nobody ever gave him that kind of money ever again, really.

Marshal Radisic
Oct 9, 2012




I'd also suggest that being a neophyte director, Lynch didn't entirely understand what a production of Dune's nature entailed when he took the job. Once he started working, I imagine it quickly became clear that he was expected to be less an individual artist experimenting with his canvas than a general organizing and marshaling hundreds of troops to fight a campaign. It's a type of filmmaking that is wholly alien to Lynch's own strengths and interests, and I imagine he lost all passion for the project pretty quickly. However, his deal with De Laurentiis meant they would finance his next project and quitting could potentially kill his career (not to mention welching on an agreement would be conduct unbecoming of an Eagle Scout), so he soldiered on, delivered the film, then put it behind him and focused on projects that were far more personally and artistically satisfying.

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

kaworu posted:

So everyone wanted to give Lynch a ton of money to direct their big-budget film and do brilliant things with it - he was even approached by George Lucas to direct Return of the Jedi during this time - what a hoot that meeting must have been.

https://youtu.be/EJQ4vCu-S0U

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



RestingB1tchFace posted:

This is truth.


I think the main issue is that Dune wasn't meant to be cramped into a two-hour movie. That's just not enough time to cover everything....which is why the jarring cuts and the hyper accelerated plot movement was basically necessary. The sci-fi miniseries clocked in at about four and a half hours. Much smaller budget....but I think it actually captures the book pretty well. Even so....it's still abbreviated.

This is why I've come to appreciate the Weirding Modules even though I think they're silly as all hell. They are an effective shorthand that combines a lot of threads from the novel. They explain quickly and simply why the emperor sees the Atreides as a threat and what Paul and Jessica have to offer the Fremen in exchange for their protection. They help foreground the theme of speech and language being sources of power. And Paul crushing Feyd's body without the aid of one underscores his own transcendent power.

If you're trying to cram all of Dune into a couple hours, you're going to need some shorthand, and I appreciate all the lifting that the Weirding Modules do.


RestingB1tchFace posted:

No matter how many times I watch Lynch's Dune....I'll never quit being amazed it. Mostly by how Lynch was given a major budget to create a movie (that very often looked like it had no budget) which would be impossible to follow by anyone who's never read the book. Insert the goofy inner dialogues and the extremely jarring cuts....and you have to wonder if any of this was on purpose. Not to mention the world making GBS threads space worm.

I finally realized where all the budget went when I saw the film in HD. The set design and construction is incredible. Look at the quality of woodwork that goes into the briefly used Castle Caladan sets.

And I saw the movie at a pretty young age well before I read the book and didn't have any real trouble following what was going on. It's weird and jarring, but motives and actions are quite clear, especially because of all the clunky inner monolog.

Spinz
Jan 7, 2020

CLICK HERE TO PLEASE THE WOMEN IN YOUR LIFE

Neo Rasa posted:

I'd say this fan edit is the best version of the movie and absolutely worth watching. It really brings out all of the best parts of what Lynch did with it, I absolutely loved this version of the movie compared to the others:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJykw3H4PDw


Also notable because unlike the Alan Smithee version it's not just longer because of them repeating the footage of folks landing on Giedi-Prime and walking down those stairs like four times and stuff like that. There's footage and shots that aren't in any officially released version in this and even a few very minor newly made bits. Lot of genuinely respectful work was put into making this cut good. I love it.



Thank you so very much for this. ^
I'm preparing a GBS thread and in researching for it found this post of yours. What a pleasure to see little scenes for the first time!

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019




:killing:


I've started reading the book, and good loving God there are so many characters and jargon...

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play


I'm about halfway through the third book and it feels like the first one in the series that's actually well written. I do like Herbert's style but the first two make no particular effort to make his jargon and abstract style approachable to general audiences.

deoju
Jul 11, 2004

All the pieces matter.


Nap Ghost

I watched the first episode of SciFi Channel miniseries out of curiosity the a while ago. Surprisingly, its not completely poo poo. Some of the art design is pretty good in a Star-Trek-DS9-with-a-higher-budget way, and William Hurt does his best to elevate the level of performances. I'm baffled by the choice to cast a 25 year old with a receding hairline as a teenage Paul though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRlAKJfRtRc

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



deoju posted:

I watched the first episode of SciFi Channel miniseries out of curiosity the a while ago. Surprisingly, its not completely poo poo. Some of the art design is pretty good in a Star-Trek-DS9-with-a-higher-budget way, and William Hurt does his best to elevate the level of performances. I'm baffled by the choice to cast a 25 year old with a receding hairline as a teenage Paul though.

It's a pretty good script and a bad everything else. I guess some of the costuming is wild in a good way, but mostly it's trying really goddamn hard but doesn't have the money or acting talent to achieve its ambitions.

I remember it as a very good adaptation of the book, though. Compared to the nonsense in the Lynch version, it's shockingly coherent and very economical. It even makes some changes that I think are better than the source (mostly, giving Irulan something to do so she's an actual character, and providing some context to the wider nobility beyond House Atreides and Harkonnen.) But still, some truly rough effects work and some real C-tier performances drag it all down.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




They cast the perfect actor for the Baron.

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Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



I think Children of Dune is a step up. Also one of the first roles for James McAvoy.

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