Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017
NRA shill who thinks homeless people would love to live in migrant border camps. Help me realize I am a bigoted piece of shit.


Martman posted:

Yeah superheroes are so cringe! My boy Paul Atreides who has magic psychic kung fu powers on the other hand...

Rushing to defend superheroes is pretty cringe as well.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017
NRA shill who thinks homeless people would love to live in migrant border camps. Help me realize I am a bigoted piece of shit.


Hodgepodge posted:

The second book has that character who takes Paul's messianic bs seriously despite having known him back in the 'hood (er, stiech?), and Paul and Alia just laugh at him knowing full well he's going to betray Paul.

Korba

The disappointing thing is Stilgar who ends up taking the BS seriously.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



sean10mm posted:

poo poo, Herbert hammers home the point that Paul being "one of the good ones" has almost no bearing on how it all plays out except at the margins, the "good guy" white savior imperialist protagonist kills billions anyway. Like we literally read Paul's thoughts where just just says it to the reader.

Herbert wasn't subtle, he just literally has all the poo poo I said happen in the first 2 books or something. Herbert was 1 step away from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk7M2jGdnxU

The intergalactic genocide doesn't really feel like its a part of the first book - we just get Paul's ruminations and vague visions, the events of Dune are pretty straight white saviour. It's not until Messiah that Herbert really starts hammering it.

Conclusion: Dune Messiah should have been part of Dune.

Automatic Slim
Jul 1, 2007




Itís Lawerance of Arabia on psychedelics. LoA came out in Ď62 and thatís when Herbert started writing Dune.

And like the real life Lawerance of Arabia, thereís a sad after life when the story ends.

Villeneuve is going to have to address this one way or another whether he wants to or not.

SixFigureSandwich
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

If the movie does well then I really hope they can make two further movies in one go, Dune 2 and Messiah.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


I think a lot of fans of the first book are turned off hard by the sequel because all the stuff in the first book about how all the Great Houses are evil including the Atreides is easy to skim over. Leto's cynicism in unguarded moments with Paul, his dying regrets, Paul's dark premonitions, are all easy to pass over. In the second book Herbert slaps you in the face with it.

It would be awesome to do Messiah and Villeneuve would love getting to shoot the obscenely huge and opulent imperial palace and the nuclear explosion. But it would never be popular.

I really hope the script gives Oscar Isaac something to chew on because Leto I is an interesting character. He's good at playing the Great Game, sick of playing it, and not as good as he thinks he is.

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Sep 5, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Arglebargle III posted:

I think a lot of fans of the first book are turned off hard by the sequel because all the stuff in the first book about how all the Great Houses are evil including the Atreides is easy to skim over. Leto's cynicism in unguarded moments with Paul, his dying regrets, Paul's dark premonitions, are all easy to pass over. In the second book Herbert slaps you in the face with it.

It would be awesome to do Messiah and Villeneuve would love getting to shoot the obscenely huge and opulent imperial palace and the nuclear explosion. But it would never be popular.

I really hope the script gives Oscar Isaac something to chew on because Leto I is an interesting character. He's good at playing the Great Game, sick of playing it, and not as good as he thinks he is.

I know that being a Wife Guy in a universe hostile to um, cheerful compliance with heteronormative monogamy I guess, is a huge theme in the Dune books. It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture. Like c'mon we probably figured that one out before we had vocal cords capable of speech dude.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

Hodgepodge posted:

I know that being a Wife Guy in a universe hostile to um, cheerful compliance with heteronormative monogamy I guess, is a huge theme in the Dune books. It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture. Like c'mon we probably figured that one out before we had vocal cords capable of speech dude.

The 'love conquers all' recurring motif does feel a little surface level in comparison to all the other themes of the books.

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


Hodgepodge posted:

It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture.

drat now that pisses me off too. I guess I was misremembering like the Suk doctors had to have no living family or something, and the wife was from before he entered the Suk School, but kept imprisoned for years, but after Googling that's not apparently the case... Ah well

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Automatic Slim posted:

Itís Lawerance of Arabia on psychedelics. LoA came out in Ď62 and thatís when Herbert started writing Dune.

And like the real life Lawerance of Arabia, thereís a sad after life when the story ends.

Villeneuve is going to have to address this one way or another whether he wants to or not.

I canít find where it is right now but somewhere at the Venice premiere Q&A villeneuve gets asked about white savior complex and he explicitly says Dune is not a white savior story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Z3Wm52yTU

Is it fair to say Dune is a white savior story, and that the later books tear the white savior myth apart, or is there anti-white-savior stuff in the first book as well? I havenít read the first book since high school and havenít read the sequels

The Fremen religion being deliberately manufactured, was that in the first book?

Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Sep 5, 2021

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


Steve Yun posted:

The Fremen religion being deliberately manufactured, was that in the first book?

Yes. And Paul has a bunch of meandering visions about becoming Muad'dib and being the god icon of a galactic jihad.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Failed Imagineer posted:

drat now that pisses me off too. I guess I was misremembering like the Suk doctors had to have no living family or something, and the wife was from before he entered the Suk School, but kept imprisoned for years, but after Googling that's not apparently the case... Ah well

I think there are two ways you can take that. The first is that Suk Conditioning is just a myth the school uses to promote itself. The second is that Piter doesn't break Yueh's conditioning so much as he just breaks Yueh. Torturing Wanna doesn't get Yueh to just betray the Atreides; it turns him into another schemer with an elaborate revenge plot that destroys Piter and almost kills the Baron.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat



They said I could be anything so I became Arrakis, Dune, desert planet




They said I could be anything so I became outer space

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Yueh knows that his wife died horribly, likely early after being kidnapped. He also knows he won't survive the hand off. He tells Leto all that when he gives the atreides the stinky tooth.

The moment the baron approached him yueh knew he and his wife were dead - everything he does is an attempt at revenge.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Steve Yun posted:


The Fremen religion being deliberately manufactured, was that in the first book?

I'm not yet there in my reread, but I think I remember some point where it goes from Jessica's thoughts (throughout the first half of the book) about how the Missionaria Protectiva has planted so many safeties into the Fremen culture for Bene Gesserit to use, to some (ancestral? spice vision?) Fremen explaining: no we know about your bullshit, we built an actual religion on top of it, it's not your tool but ours.

I might be misremembering. I'll know in like another 50 or 100 pages. (Paul just met Chani for the first time in the flesh, not a dream vision, and is hornier than he has ever been in his life. It's hilarious.)

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Steve Yun posted:

Is it fair to say Dune is a white savior story, and that the later books tear the white savior myth apart, or is there anti-white-savior stuff in the first book as well? I havenít read the first book since high school and havenít read the sequels

The Fremen religion being deliberately manufactured, was that in the first book?

Yeah, as well as Leto telling Paul that they have to get the propaganda machine up and running ASAP. And Paul's visions of a blood-drenched future that he knows is the only way out for him and his mother.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Arglebargle III posted:

And Paul's visions of a blood-drenched future that he knows is the only way out for him and his mother.

That's not his only vision, though.

DUNC posted:

He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.
I've always been a little curious just what it is that lays on that path.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Steve Yun posted:





They said I could be anything so I became outer space

Space boots with futuristic fasteners

Jo Joestar
Oct 24, 2013


Vavrek posted:

I've always been a little curious just what it is that lays on that path.

It's the Baron, it's not hard to guess.

e: Just in case it is, the Baron is explicitly a paedophile with a sexual interest in Paul and a (sort of implied in the books, explicit in the encyclopedia) previous incestuous relationship.

Jo Joestar fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Sep 6, 2021

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


The first story follows a standard hero's journey template more, but it's already pretty heavy handed about how none of the messiah business is going to end well, the "savages" are wildly underestimated by everyone not just in killing skill but technical sophistication and vision, the religion Paul is playing the messiah of is manufactured and he's acting out a role, how the Atreides "good guy" image is manufactured, and so on.

It also feels to me like both Leto and Thufir are past their primes and burned out on all the machiavellian poo poo but feel obligated to go through with it anyway. Like if this happened 10 years earlier they would have probably dunked on the Harkonnens. But that’s more my personal read on things than anything solid.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


Jo Joestar posted:

It's the Baron, it's not hard to guess.
The Baron just lying there, blocking the path like Snorlax

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




In Messiah Paul compares himself to Hitler and he's several orders of magnitude worse.

Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017
NRA shill who thinks homeless people would love to live in migrant border camps. Help me realize I am a bigoted piece of shit.


Automatic Slim posted:

Villeneuve is going to have to address this one way or another whether he wants to or not.

LoL
:what:

Lord Krangdar
Oct 23, 2007

These are the secrets of death we teach.


Steve Yun posted:

Is it fair to say Dune is a white savior story, and that the later books tear the white savior myth apart, or is there anti-white-savior stuff in the first book as well? I havenít read the first book since high school and havenít read the sequels

Strom Cuzewon posted:

The intergalactic genocide doesn't really feel like its a part of the first book - we just get Paul's ruminations and vague visions, the events of Dune are pretty straight white saviour. It's not until Messiah that Herbert really starts hammering it.

Its not a white savior story because there is no savior at all. Paul and Jessica are acting for their own interests, and using the Fremen. That is made very clear in the first book, yes, even though the full consequences are explored more later in the series.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Steve Yun posted:

I canít find where it is right now but somewhere at the Venice premiere Q&A villeneuve gets asked about white savior complex and he explicitly says Dune is not a white savior story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Z3Wm52yTU



It's not in here.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Jo Joestar posted:

It's the Baron, it's not hard to guess.

e: Just in case it is, the Baron is explicitly a paedophile with a sexual interest in Paul and a (sort of implied in the books, explicit in the encyclopedia) previous incestuous relationship.

I mean, yeah. What I mean is: does Paul survive longterm? Is he kept around as a slave of the Baron? Is there some way Paul could gain an established place as A Harkonnen, and become (an illegitimate) part of the family? Maybe he could become the new Harkonnen mentat! Piter's dead and Thufir's old. Complete Paul's training and keep him for that. And the Baron certainly could kill his own daughter if he wanted, but is there any route where Jessica survives? That sort of thing. What lays on the path beyond the Baron's bedchamber.


Martman posted:

The Baron just lying there, blocking the path like Snorlax
:hmmyes:

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Arglebargle III posted:

It's not in here.

Ahh poo poo youíre right I went through it again looking for it

Cheap Trick
Jan 4, 2007



quote:

Originally slated for October 21, Duneís release date in Australia has been pushed to December 2, 2021.
[...]
Dune is getting a simultaneous streaming release on HBO Max in the U.S., but this wonít be happening in Australia.

The cinema release date change makes sense since there's lockdowns going on here, but no streaming alternative... :sigh:

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Cheap Trick posted:

The cinema release date change makes sense since there's lockdowns going on here, but no streaming alternative... :sigh:

Well maybe if you guys hosed up your covid response more and got hundreds of thousands killed youíd get rewarded with a streaming release

Cheap Trick
Jan 4, 2007



So that's the secret, huh... At least two premiers (probably the equivalent of "governors") are trending towards Open Biden so

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007

by Hand Knit


Imperial Suk conditioning ensures that the conditioned won't take human life, specifically the life of their master. That's it! It's no safeguard against betrayal or treachery it's just the "do no harm" portion of the Hippocratic oath physically instilled into a person.

Yueh is probably the character I'm looking forward to most to see how he's adapted. There are so many ways you can slice the pie of his motivation it'll be interesting to see what plays out in this adaptation.

I never for a second thought, "all you have to do to break imperial conditioning is kidnap a spouse! How did no one think of that before?". I always thought how Piter worked Yueh outside of the book was the real meat of the issue.

What you have to understand is that Harkonnens use cruelty like a paintbrush. They've developed pain into a pleasurable pastime with their nerve tanks and public blood sport. Ontop of this brutal, sadistic culture you have Piter, a man the Baron went to the Tleilax and said, "make me a mentat completely devoid of empathy!". There's evil and then there's Piter. Dying is one thing, that sucks, but behind captive to these assholes is a fate much worse that death. Does Yueh want to free Wanna from this suffering? Does he want to ensure his suspicions that she was already dead?

The reveal with Wanna is going to shut the whole theater up, I can guarantee that.

There's also the aspect of Peiter using Yueh as a defensive weapon against the Baron, who is notorious for disposing people after they serve their purpose to him.



If you like it's very similar to how Batman deals with Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins. Batman will/can not kill, but he necessarily doesn't have to save a guy who's about to die through external means.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009



Vavrek posted:

I mean, yeah. What I mean is: does Paul survive longterm? Is he kept around as a slave of the Baron? Is there some way Paul could gain an established place as A Harkonnen, and become (an illegitimate) part of the family? Maybe he could become the new Harkonnen mentat! Piter's dead and Thufir's old. Complete Paul's training and keep him for that. And the Baron certainly could kill his own daughter if he wanted, but is there any route where Jessica survives? That sort of thing. What lays on the path beyond the Baron's bedchamber.
Paul does seem to consider it a future, just a personally disgusting one. I would expect Paul to eventually gain the throne, but not for some time and having to endure the Baron's attentions until Vladimir died or was assassinated.

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


Herbert only alluded to the boylust in his novel, whereas Orson Scott Card really developed on the theme. Arthur C Clarke avoided the topic entirely in his writing, not wanting to mix his work and his pleasure

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007

by Hand Knit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ZDp9FEvLA

Bunch of new footage, lookin so, so good.

e: Semuta scene confirmed!

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Failed Imagineer posted:

Herbert only alluded to the boylust in his novel, whereas Orson Scott Card really developed on the theme. Arthur C Clarke avoided the topic entirely in his writing, not wanting to mix his work and his pleasure

If by "alluded to" you mean the baron telling his people to prepare "a boy for his chamber", specifying the one that he selected because he looked like paul and a few sentences of the baron fantasizing about loving paul

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


AnEdgelord posted:

If by "alluded to" you mean the baron telling his people to prepare "a boy for his chamber", specifying the one that he selected because he looked like paul and a few sentences of the baron fantasizing about loving paul

Yeah, basically. Again, OSC wrote chapters of that poo poo, and like, naked boys wrestling in the shower for important plot reasons

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010



TheOmegaWalrus posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ZDp9FEvLA

Bunch of new footage, lookin so, so good.

e: Semuta scene confirmed!

Huh, somehow I'd always assumed that "Bene Gesserit" would be pronounced with a hard g, as in "guess".

Anyway, looks rad. The glimpses of Caladan in particular looked interesting, and will probably make for a great contrast to Arrakis.

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


Perestroika posted:

Huh, somehow I'd always assumed that "Bene Gesserit" would be pronounced with a hard g, as in "guess".

Villeneuve clearly correctly pronounces it as "gif"

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003



It comes from ďJesuitĒ

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Postorder Trollet89
Jan 12, 2008
Sweden doesn't do religion. But if they did, it would probably be the best religion in the world.

Automatic Slim posted:


Villeneuve is going to have to address this one way or another whether he wants to or not.


I get your point but he won't have to. The first book does warn us quite convincingly, even if it absolves Paul of some blame.

Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 6, 2021

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply