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Automatic Slim
Jul 1, 2007



Postorder Trollet89 posted:

I get your point but he won't have to. The first book does warn us quite convincingly, even if it absolves Paul of some blame.

Yes.

The book lays it out well. My favorite line in the book is when Jessica chides to Paul, ďno religion is simpleĒ.

Social Media will do as it does and some will try to score what points they want without context or reading the book.

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phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Automatic Slim posted:

Social Media will do as it does and some will try to score what points they want without context or reading the book.

True. We all knew it was coming.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

sean10mm posted:

It also feels to me like both Leto and Thufir are past their primes and burned out on all the machiavellian poo poo but feel obligated to go through with it anyway. Like if this happened 10 years earlier they would have probably dunked on the Harkonnens. But that’s more my personal read on things than anything solid.

The point is that Leto has been gunning for the big chair basically since birth. It's why he doesn't marry Jessica. He loves her, she loves him, but if he's unmarried there's always the chance he can be married into the imperial family. He's made his House probably the single strongest House in the universe......but it's not enough to fight the Emperor yet, which is so clearly what he is building towards. And so his House is marked for annihilation before it cant reach that point. He's not as good as he thinks he is, but don't mistake that for incompetence or even mediocrity. He has legitimately reached a point of being a threat to the throne, and that's why he needs to be stopped. His flaw is in thinking he could just do all this pretty openly and not face the consequences, not in not being good enough to do it.

The point of even having this discussion in the movie thread is that it's all basically information you get in the first like 9 seconds of the story. Nobody in all of existence is blind to what is happening and what will happen, and everyone knows why it's happening too. The only one that doesn't see it is Paul, a child. It's part of the theme of stagnation and prescience. Everyone can see the path in front of them, nobody knows how to break free from it.

Postorder Trollet89 posted:

I get your point but he won't have to. The first book does warn us quite convincingly, even if it absolves Paul of some blame.

To be fair to him he's like 15 when the story starts. And he's put in a position with almost no real choices for basic survival, let alone to take a moral stand. By the time he's in a position to do so, he's barely human and all his options suck. He may have had a privileged upbringing, but the overwhelming majority of his life was violence and torment. And also his second son had to become a giant dick monster for three thousand years.

So, you know, I think he paid his dues.

Mulva fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Sep 7, 2021

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

To be fair to Leto he absolutely knows that Arrakis is a trap and that it represents the Emperor moving against him, he just thinks the trap is that he is being set up to fail to deliver on the spice quotas and be discredited amongst the nobility, not that the Emperor, Harkonnen and the Guild are going to conspire together to drop an army on him.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Mulva posted:

His flaw is in thinking he could just do all this pretty openly and not face the consequences, not in not being good enough to do it.

It's more his mistake is thinking doing all this pretty openly and earning an esteemed position among the Landsraad will protect him from the consequences.

Prolonged Panorama
Dec 21, 2007
Holy hookrat Sally smoking crack in the alley!





Alchenar posted:

To be fair to Leto he absolutely knows that Arrakis is a trap and that it represents the Emperor moving against him, he just thinks the trap is that he is being set up to fail to deliver on the spice quotas and be discredited amongst the nobility, not that the Emperor, Harkonnen and the Guild are going to conspire together to drop an army on him.

No, they expect the direct attack and Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnen troops. What they miscalculate is the scale of the attack - which is roughly ten times larger (in ships, troops, etc) than they planned for.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


He knows it's a trap but the plans he talks about suggest he thinks he has months or even years, not a few weeks.

Also Leto's endgame is becoming strong enough that Shaddam has no good options other than marrying Irulan to Leto. Which means he doesn't want to challenge the Emperor in open warfare, just become powerful enough and popular enough that he is the obvious choice to be the Imperial son-in-law.

I think Leto and his inner circle are unaware just how much attention Paul's birth has focused on the Atreides. He can't know that the Guild is in the tank against him.

And as someone suggested upthread, it seems like Leto's heart isn't in it anymore. Maybe 10 years ago he and Thufir would be sharp enough to avoid the trap, but now he just fantasizes about disappearing into deep space and plays his part.

Jo Joestar
Oct 24, 2013


I think the idea that Leto was planning to marry Irulan probably isn't right; from her writings, Shaddam himself actually wanted to have Leto as a son, though the age gap was too great for her to marry him. It was the other houses he was trying to keep on side by leaving the possibility of marriage open. AFAICT, the reason why House Corrino moved against House Atreides was just that the balance of power between the Imperial House, the Guild and the Landsraad was so fragile that the sort of potential threat House Atreides was becoming couldn't be allowed to survive. The tripod is the most unstable of political structures, and all that.

e: Reading between the lines a bit, it looks like part of the Bene Gesserit plan was to put their Kwisatz Haderach on the throne, either directly or as the heir to Feyd-Rautha. Depending on what exactly he knew, Shaddam might have been trying to disrupt their breeding programme by wiping out the Atreides (and perhaps fatally weakening the Harkonnens for later disposal, too - their big advantage was wealth, and they lost a vast fortune paying for the invasion of Arrakis).

Jo Joestar fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Sep 7, 2021

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Arglebargle III posted:

He knows it's a trap but the plans he talks about suggest he thinks he has months or even years, not a few weeks.

Yes. Leto just runs out of time. He figured out the key to defeating the trap: aligning with the Fremen. It's why he sends Duncan in advance. It's why he keeps talking desert power. And he's right; he just doesn't have the time to solidify that alliance.


Jo Joestar posted:

e: Reading between the lines a bit, it looks like part of the Bene Gesserit plan was to put their Kwisatz Haderach on the throne, either directly or as the heir to Feyd-Rautha. Depending on what exactly he knew, Shaddam might have been trying to disrupt their breeding programme by wiping out the Atreides (and perhaps fatally weakening the Harkonnens for later disposal, too - their big advantage was wealth, and they lost a vast fortune paying for the invasion of Arrakis).

One thing to consider is that there are two BG plans at play here. There's the political plan to marry a daughter of Duke Leto to Feyd Rautha to unite their houses and perhaps overthrow the Emperor. There's also the KH breeding plan, and that seems to have multiple paths towards its goals considering Count Fenring, the potential KH who maybe can't be the KH because he's also a "genetic eunuch."

Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017
NRA shill who thinks homeless people would love to live in migrant border camps. Help me realize I am a bigoted piece of shit.


phasmid posted:

True. We all knew it was coming.

Recreational outrage is all the... rage

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010



Another factor in Leto getting got is that he probably never conceived of how much of a risk the Harkonnens would be willing to take "just" to get rid of a rival. Leto always appeared quite concerned with the safety of his family and legacy, at least as far as he could square it with his greater ambition/duty. Even if he ultimately decided against it, he frequently considered just bailing out and going into exile to protect his family. Clearly, he's not a reckless man. After taking out the Harkonnen spice reserves, he figures that their position is too precarious for them to be able to risk any major moves in the near future.

But then Vladimir goes and all but bankrupts his house and pretty much wholly places them in the Emperor's power, all for one hail-mary at taking out the Atreides. And while it did work out for him in the short term, it could've gone bad in any number of ways. It's something that Leto wouldn't even consider because it's such a ludicrous risk, which is why it took him by surprise the way it did.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxL_0LUad3M

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



The glowing review is encouraging, but man, I hope the actors in the movie pronounce things more consistently than this guy does

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Based on the videos thus far they say Harkonnen the less popular way in the movie (I think the only clip from the actual movie is Brolin but in the Houses video several actors and Villeneuve say it) so that'll take a bit of getting used to.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Cognac McCarthy posted:

The glowing review is encouraging, but man, I hope the actors in the movie pronounce things more consistently than this guy does

Iím sure Deli Vellanov will pull it off

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007

by Hand Knit


And how can this be?

For he IS the quiz-hatched humpback!

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Lord Krangdar posted:

Its not a white savior story because there is no savior at all. Paul and Jessica are acting for their own interests, and using the Fremen. That is made very clear in the first book, yes, even though the full consequences are explored more later in the series.

I guess, yeah. I'd still like to have seen the book explore it more from the Fremen perspective than it does. Especially as the few bits of that we do get are some of my favourite bits in the series - Chani freaking out about Paul in the spice orgy, Stilgar contemplating killing the twins, that Fremen fighter who gets his mind blown by an ocean, Darwi not knowing if humanity had escaped letos prescience etc. . I find people reacting to the superman way more compelling than the superman himself.

Ammanas
Jul 17, 2005

Voltes V: "Laser swooooooooord!"

regarding yeuh i thought the reason he was able to violate his conditioning wasnt that his wife was being tortured or would be killed or was dead it was the schroedingers cat aspect of her being all those conditions and not at once

that ambiguity broke him in some way.

Crespolini
Mar 9, 2014



Groovelord Neato posted:

Based on the videos thus far they say Harkonnen the less popular way in the movie.

I hate this.

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009

Plague Champion


Steve Yun posted:

Iím sure Deli Vellanov will pull it off
little known fact the planet Irakiss is a reference to Iraq and the story is a metaphor for the Iraq war

edit: That "review" video

0:00-0:13 youtuber intro
0:14-0:41 jodorowski and lynch did some things
0:42-1:10 actual review (it's beautiful and perfect)
1:11-2:07 plot summary
2:08-6:20 actual review (the script is perfect the visuals are perfect the actors are perfect it's a perfect movie)
6:21-13:00 trailers

very useful

bawfuls fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 7, 2021

SixFigureSandwich
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

Ammanas posted:

regarding yeuh i thought the reason he was able to violate his conditioning wasnt that his wife was being tortured or would be killed or was dead it was the schroedingers cat aspect of her being all those conditions and not at once

that ambiguity broke him in some way.

suks to be yueh

endocriminologist
May 17, 2021


SixFigureSandwich posted:

suks to be yueh

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


SixFigureSandwich posted:

suks to be yueh

Thread title when?

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007

by Hand Knit


SixFigureSandwich posted:

suks to be yueh

Masterstroke.

Odoyle
Sep 9, 2003
Odoyle Rules!

Anybody else bringing buckets of ground cinnamon with them to the theatres?

Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006



SixFigureSandwich posted:

suks to be yueh

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


Odoyle posted:

Anybody else bringing buckets of ground cinnamon with them to the theatres?

Yes, but I've been doing that for years

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

The spice must flow




bawfuls posted:

little known fact the planet Irakiss is a reference to Iraq and the story is a metaphor for the Iraq war

edit: That "review" video

0:00-0:13 youtuber intro
0:14-0:41 jodorowski and lynch did some things
0:42-1:10 actual review (it's beautiful and perfect)
1:11-2:07 plot summary
2:08-6:20 actual review (the script is perfect the visuals are perfect the actors are perfect it's a perfect movie)
6:21-13:00 trailers

very useful
I'm guessing youtube is advantaging videos over 10 minutes or something and look if you don't have much to say why not pad it out with trailers (guessing trailer footage is pre-ok'd with the copyright cops)

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Odoyle posted:

Anybody else bringing buckets of ground cinnamon with them to the theatres?

Of course I do, have you seen theater markup?

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Crespolini posted:

I hate this.

Not sure why they made the decision when the other adaptations say it the other way but what are ya gonna do.

The United States posted:

I'm guessing youtube is advantaging videos over 10 minutes or something and look if you don't have much to say why not pad it out with trailers (guessing trailer footage is pre-ok'd with the copyright cops)

A few years back they changed the algorithm or whatever to advantage longer videos (which killed people that did song parodies and such) and 10 minutes was some sort of minimum but I can't remember why.

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004



Automatic Slim posted:

Itís Lawerance of Arabia on psychedelics. LoA came out in Ď62 and thatís when Herbert started writing Dune.

And like the real life Lawerance of Arabia, thereís a sad after life when the story ends.

Villeneuve is going to have to address this one way or another whether he wants to or not.

Dune doesn't have a white savior plot though.

Automatic Slim
Jul 1, 2007



I said come in! posted:

Dune doesn't have a white savior plot though.

Dune is a warning against saviors and personality cults.

That won't stop people from posting that the movie does. Villeneuve gives a good answer on that though.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Failed Imagineer posted:

Thread title when?

I am guaranteed to autoban myself again if I try to do this

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Automatic Slim posted:

Dune is a warning against saviors and personality cults.

That won't stop people from posting that the movie does. Villeneuve gives a good answer on that though.

This is pretty much what will happen. I'm sure Villeneuve will set the stage for all of these critiques the books eventually embrace, while people inclined to read the movie uncharitably will ignore all of that and push a bad faith take because outrage is easy.

I've gotten into similar arguments about The Last Samurai or Last of the Mohicans, which people also identify as "white savior" stories even though the actual point of both of those movies isn't that.

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



Don't forget that there are plenty of people that get all unironically "oorah" over Starship Troopers both in book and in movie form.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Perestroika posted:

Another factor in Leto getting got is that he probably never conceived of how much of a risk the Harkonnens would be willing to take "just" to get rid of a rival. Leto always appeared quite concerned with the safety of his family and legacy, at least as far as he could square it with his greater ambition/duty. Even if he ultimately decided against it, he frequently considered just bailing out and going into exile to protect his family. Clearly, he's not a reckless man. After taking out the Harkonnen spice reserves, he figures that their position is too precarious for them to be able to risk any major moves in the near future.

But then Vladimir goes and all but bankrupts his house and pretty much wholly places them in the Emperor's power, all for one hail-mary at taking out the Atreides. And while it did work out for him in the short term, it could've gone bad in any number of ways. It's something that Leto wouldn't even consider because it's such a ludicrous risk, which is why it took him by surprise the way it did.

:hmmyes:

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Villeneuve pronunciation count incrementing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq6_vQXRK5U




Automatic Slim posted:

Dune is a warning against saviors and personality cults.

That won't stop people from posting that the movie does. Villeneuve gives a good answer on that though.
I really doubt the ~first movie~ of this adaptation gets that far into it though

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


The United States posted:

I really doubt the ~first movie~ of this adaptation gets that far into it though

Let them eat cake sand.

exmarx
Feb 18, 2012


The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.


TheOmegaWalrus posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ZDp9FEvLA

Bunch of new footage, lookin so, so good.

e: Semuta scene confirmed!

i love those fishbowl helmets @ 0:35

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SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012



Fun Shoe

Strom Cuzewon posted:

The intergalactic genocide doesn't really feel like its a part of the first book - we just get Paul's ruminations and vague visions, the events of Dune are pretty straight white saviour. It's not until Messiah that Herbert really starts hammering it.

Conclusion: Dune Messiah should have been part of Dune.

It's not white savior at all. The Fremen are just there to be used, the story isn't about saving them. The story is about the intergalactic feudal system and the conflicts therein.

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