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TheMadMilkman
Dec 10, 2007



Hodgepodge posted:

It gets brought up; Paul mentions that the Guild was simply too habituated to using their prescience to find safe routes to the future to go ahead with something destabilizing.

Paul’s prescience is also a very unique combination of mentat and BG training mixed with spice. It seems reasonable that a lesser group, even with way more spice, would not be as capable of resolving more difficult lines of prescience and would instead stick to the easy to see ways.

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KaptainKrunk
Feb 6, 2006




The Guild are too twisted to by spice to do anything other than navigate, and they don't really have the means or really the desire to harvest and manufacture spice.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

The Guild already has functionally unlimited influence and has already basically accomplished all of their objectives.

Why would they want the hassle of running a galactic empire? It doesn’t gain them anything else.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Their goal is life is to literally immerse their bodies in spice 24/7 and they accomplish this goal for an impressively long period of time.

Shanty
Nov 7, 2005

I Love Dogs


Hodgepodge posted:

It gets brought up; Paul mentions that the Guild was simply too habituated to using their prescience to find safe routes to the future to go ahead with something destabilizing.

Yeah, this is it. They can see into the future, but always take the path of immediate safety, which leads to stagnation.
Any dramatic attempts to grab power will look dangerous and bad in the short term (with absolute prescient certainty) so they just don't. Regardless of how powerful it would eventually make them.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


They're space stoners who found One Wierd Trick to get lifetime weed 24/7.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




sean10mm posted:

They're space stoners who found One Wierd Trick to get lifetime weed 24/7.

this but also petro scumbags addicted to huffing gas fumes

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

It also makes sense that they would culturally stick to the 'one safe path through the future' given that's how they do the space travel trick.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



MrYenko posted:

This is the one thing that always struck me as odd about the Dune universe. Control of Arrakis means control of the spice. Control of the spice means control of the entire economy of the empire.

Why the actual gently caress is Dune not continually garrisoned by sardaukar, and ruled personally by the emperor? I mean obviously not as his capitol planet, but why does he allow another layer of management between him and the lifeblood of his entire empire?

He literally can't do that, the Guild would never transport enough troops to let him garrison the planet. The only reason the Atreides empire can get started is because it starts on Arrakis.

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012



Fun Shoe

Aren't the guild and the bene gesserit sort of both in on the kwizats haderach thing? Or am I misremembering.

No Mods No Masters
Oct 3, 2004

You thought, "A robber must hate you to want to take from you"
The robber don't hate you


The guild are just sort of hapless tools, I don't think the BG respected them enough to bring them in on anything until edric's power was useful for the conspiracy in messiah. My question is what edric thought the guild stood to gain by getting rid of paul. I guess the answer is probably "more spice" :catdrugs:

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




No Mods No Masters posted:

I guess the answer is probably "more spice" :horsedrugs:

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

SHISHKABOB posted:

Aren't the guild and the bene gesserit sort of both in on the kwizats haderach thing? Or am I misremembering.

Yes and no - in Paul's meeting the with the BG on Calandan there's a bit of an exposition dump where it's revealed that the BG and the Guild have both been dedicated for thousands of years on developing human potential the BG on politics/human manipulation and the Guild on being so good at maths that you can beat the uncertainty principle.

Both organisations are using spice to heighten their consciousness and the Guild Navigators have a limited form of prescience to do their thing - that prescience also makes them 'aware' of Paul's special nature because his existence is a huge cloud over the future.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



sean10mm posted:

I also don't think it was generally known that it was possible to destroy the source of the spice, short of maybe nuking the whole planet to death. Which you generally don't want to do while you're on it.

Yes. Only the Fremen, Kynes, and later Paul and his descendants understand the spice cycle.


MrL_JaKiri posted:

Also the Guild being so reliant on spice was a twist in Dune, it was retconned into common knowledge later.

Yeah, sort of. It's common knowledge that the Guild relies on spice to successfully fold space. That's not really a big deal. Just about every powerful person or faction uses the spice, at least for its "geriatric" properties. The reveal when the Guild rep's contact pops out is that they are as immersed in the spice as the Fremen are and that's how they develop the prescience necessary to successfully fold space. The full extent of that is then revealed with Edric in Dune Messiah, the first and only Guild Navigator who appears in the novels.


TheMadMilkman posted:

Paul’s prescience is also a very unique combination of mentat and BG training mixed with spice. It seems reasonable that a lesser group, even with way more spice, would not be as capable of resolving more difficult lines of prescience and would instead stick to the easy to see ways.

Yeah, basically. Paul's training allows him to make much better use of his prescience than the Guild. For example, Edric knows that his own prescience obscures the conspiracy from Paul's prescience, but he doesn't realize that Paul can deduce the conspiracy from how certain people keep disappearing from his prescient visions.

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!


KaptainKrunk posted:

The Guild are too twisted to by spice to do anything other than navigate, and they don't really have the means or really the desire to harvest and manufacture spice.

It’s not like they would be the ones actually mining it and getting chased by worms. That’s what the peasants are for. Plus if you want to keep your spice supply flowing letting your political rivals control it is the least safe thing you can do.

Zedhe Khoja posted:

Might as well ask why Saudi Aramco doesn’t take over the world.

The people behind Aramco totally would if they had the kind of power the Guild has yes.

Maarak
May 23, 2007


Steve Yun posted:

Minovsky particles also made lightsabers possible

Otherway around. Star Wars came out in 1977, Mobile Suit Gundam 1979.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Maarak posted:

Otherway around. Star Wars came out in 1977, Mobile Suit Gundam 1979.

Sorry, I mean Minovsky particles made Beam Sabers™ possible in the Gundam universe

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

galagazombie posted:

It’s not like they would be the ones actually mining it and getting chased by worms. That’s what the peasants are for. Plus if you want to keep your spice supply flowing letting your political rivals control it is the least safe thing you can do.


They are addicts and their behaviour is driven by the addiction, not by lust for power or anything else. As long as they get to continue swimming in big tanks of spice and they see a future where they get to continue swimming in big vats of spice then they are happy to get high. Their sole concern when Paul threatens to usurp the Emperor is that he is a risk to their spice flow, and him escalating that risk to an outright threat is enough to flip the guild instantly.

The metaphor isn't particularly difficult, Herbert is demonstrating how the developed world's reliance on oil means that monied interests will lobby governments to ensure there is a steady supply of the stuff.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


The Guild are also pathologically secretive. No one sees the steersmen, no one is allowed to move around on the highliners. Making a move for additional power is going to attract more scrutiny than they want. They share something with the Tleilaxu in that sense

Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017

It's the Teachers fault!

NRA shill who thinks homeless people would love to live in migrant border camps. Help me realize I am a bigoted piece of shit.


PeterWeller posted:

Yes. Only the Fremen, Kynes, and later Paul and his descendants understand the spice cycle.

I found it pretty dumb that millennium into the future, humans would not look at a smear of spice on the sand, a substance that is uber valuable and allows space time to be folded, and not already know what produces it and what can destroy it.

As the imperial planetologist, what could Kynes have been telling the emperor all the years he'd been studying it?
:iiam:?

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Hasselblad posted:

I found it pretty dumb that millennium into the future, humans would not look at a smear of spice on the sand, a substance that is uber valuable and allows space time to be folded, and not already know what produces it and what can destroy it.

As the imperial planetologist, what could Kynes have been telling the emperor all the years he'd been studying it?
:iiam:?

I wonder why short-sighted rulers selected from the best backstabbers of the landlord class and addicted to profits and drugs would ignore a scientist who is actually interested in why the spice flows in the first place, the environment where it flows from, and what the indigenous people who live there know of it?

Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017

It's the Teachers fault!

NRA shill who thinks homeless people would love to live in migrant border camps. Help me realize I am a bigoted piece of shit.


Hodgepodge posted:

I wonder why short-sighted rulers selected from the best backstabbers of the landlord class and addicted to profits and drugs would ignore a scientist who is actually interested in why the spice flows in the first place, the environment where it flows from, and what the indigenous people who live there know of it?

I mean, did it really take Paul's KH powers to deduce that on a planet of sand/fremen/worms and not much of anything else, there might be a relationship of the worms with the spice?

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Hasselblad posted:

I mean, did it really take Paul's KH powers to deduce that on a planet of sand/fremen/worms and not much of anything else, there might be a relationship of the worms with the spice?

This is the setting that inspired WH40K.

Yes. Yes it did.

e: actually, all it would have taken was listening to Kynes, which Leto fully intended to do. But Paul got to see the whole ecology project from the ground as a Fremen, and their knowledge combined with his powers allowed him to understand it despite Kynes' death. Also he was the other grandfather of Leto II "Literal God King" Atreides through Chani, so both Leto II and the "wild" line retained the genetic knowledge (and Leto II probably chatted with him in his head).

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Sep 13, 2021

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


How much does anybody in politics care about the ecological processes that produce coal, oil and natural gas, versus just demanding GIVE US MORE OF THE GOOD poo poo FOR THE ECONOMY?

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!


It’s really all a question of timescale and sci-fi/fantasy authors not understanding time. Everything about the setting and status quo at the start of Dune is entirely believable over like a 100 to 200 year timescale. Such a system existing that long before Paul knocks over the house of cards makes perfect sense. It’s just that author’s love to throw out “ten thousand years” without really comprehending just how long a time that is. All of human history is maybe 6000 years if you stretch it, so saying that even the most ossified and hyper-conservative system could remain unchanged and unreformed for 10’000 years is unbelievable. It makes a lot more sense in God Emperor though because of the whole “Immortal omniscient worm-man who physically sits on top of the oil” is a game changer.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Hasselblad posted:

I found it pretty dumb that millennium into the future, humans would not look at a smear of spice on the sand, a substance that is uber valuable and allows space time to be folded, and not already know what produces it and what can destroy it.

As the imperial planetologist, what could Kynes have been telling the emperor all the years he'd been studying it?
:iiam:?

I think I said it in the other Dune thread, but it's not like there's not a topical example of the rich and powerful ignoring geographers for short term gain and massive long term loss

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

MrL_JaKiri posted:

I think I said it in the other Dune thread, but it's not like there's not a topical example of the rich and powerful ignoring geographers for short term gain and massive long term loss

If anything it's more unrealistic that Children of Dune isn't filled with Spice Deniers who think the spice is NOT the worm and that the worms are just a distraction from how spice is made on a different planet an then shipped to Arrakis.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


Neo Rasa posted:

If anything it's more unrealistic that Children of Dune isn't filled with Spice Deniers who think the spice is NOT the worm and that the worms are just a distraction from how spice is made on a different planet an then shipped to Arrakis.

Given when it was written Dune should have had a space John Birch Society screaming about how the Orange Catholic Bible was written by THOSE loving COMMIES MACHINES or something.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009




The relationship between the worms and the spice is clearly obvious, but yet it is something that Kynes plays coy about when it is brought up. You get the sense that Leto and Paul are the first people to genuinely give a poo poo, and Kynes has mainly been working towards preventing the Harkonnens from loving nuking the place.

From the early parts of the book:

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011



Ultra Carp

I got to see this on Saturday and I thought it was terrific. It's perfectly cast and the way Villeneuve's crafted the sets and the costumes and everything else just feels right. I'm also pretty cynical about this movie doing anything but losing a fuckload of money and Villeneuve not being able to make any more, which loving sucks.

Chalamet is great and in maybe his best performance since Call Me By Your Name, but to me Rebecca Ferguson was the real star. Everyone else is doing what they can with relatively limited screen time, but Bardem's Stilgar is perfect when he's onscreen and I really appreciated how not-cartoonish and genuinely menacing the Baron is here.

I really hope I'm wrong and people give this one a chance. It's loving stunning in IMAX.

WarMECH
Dec 23, 2004


If I was gonna see one movie in a theater this year it would be this one, but not gonna risk it because of Covid.


Thanks, chuds! (I'm in FL)

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018


flashy_mcflash posted:

I got to see this on Saturday and I thought it was terrific. It's perfectly cast and the way Villeneuve's crafted the sets and the costumes and everything else just feels right. I'm also pretty cynical about this movie doing anything but losing a fuckload of money and Villeneuve not being able to make any more, which loving sucks.

Chalamet is great and in maybe his best performance since Call Me By Your Name, but to me Rebecca Ferguson was the real star. Everyone else is doing what they can with relatively limited screen time, but Bardem's Stilgar is perfect when he's onscreen and I really appreciated how not-cartoonish and genuinely menacing the Baron is here.

I really hope I'm wrong and people give this one a chance. It's loving stunning in IMAX.

Nice TIFF humblebrag. J/k.

Haha how did I totally blank that Javier Bardem is in this too

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Nap Ghost

Got a reminder that this movie's premiering this week, and the week after I have vacation days I'm not doing anything special with. I think I'll look for some weekday early showing when there's likely to only be a handful of people and chance the theater for the first time in a year and a half.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat



Theaters are safe as long as:

1. You wear an N95, KN95, KF94 or reusable respirator and make sure it has a good seal on your face. Cloth masks suck at filtering and surgical masks have leaks on the sides.

2. Never take it off, no food, no drink

3. Wear eye protection

Valve Steam Deck
Jul 18, 2004



Melman v2

If you want more D U N C it might be better to spend your $15 on an HBO Max sub and watch only D U N C over and over

https://variety.com/2021/film/box-office/dune-hbo-max-release-1235062312/

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1437516658827014146

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



davidspackage posted:

Got a reminder that this movie's premiering this week, and the week after I have vacation days I'm not doing anything special with. I think I'll look for some weekday early showing when there's likely to only be a handful of people and chance the theater for the first time in a year and a half.

People keep saying this but when I look online I still see an Oct 22 release date, whats going on here?

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019
Probation
Can't post for 27 days!


The United States posted:

If you want more D U N C it might be better to spend your $15 on an HBO Max sub and watch only D U N C over and over

https://variety.com/2021/film/box-office/dune-hbo-max-release-1235062312/

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1437516658827014146

they will kill its budget though

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002



AnEdgelord posted:

People keep saying this but when I look online I still see an Oct 22 release date, whats going on here?

I looked it up earlier, international release is a month ahead of the USA for some reason.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Goblin Craft posted:

I looked it up earlier, international release is a month ahead of the USA for some reason.

that is very stupid

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Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Subbing to HBO Max for 2 months to boost those DUNC numbers, and probably also to watch the movie several times

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