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Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003



Rabelais D posted:

it's a good genre book, and that's about it.

:jerkbag:

Also Iíve been beaten and Iím sure people will pile on but yes, you donít seem familiar with what the white savior trope actually is. That Dune contains shades of that convention is literally the entire point of the series, itís a subversion of that.

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battlepigeon
Aug 3, 2008



I'm in the mood for more Dune!

Is the miniseries from 2000 and 2003 worth checking out? The late 90s/early 2000s CGI looks sketchy as gently caress, but the cast looks pretty good atleast.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




quote:

In that instant, Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen naib to a creature of the Lisan al-Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessening of the man, and Paul felt the ghost-wind of the jihad in it.

quote:

"'...What little information we have about the old times, the pittance of data which the Butlerians left us, Korba has brought it for you. Start with the Genghis Khan.' 'Ghenghis . . . Khan? Was he of the Sardaukar, m'Lord?' 'Oh, long before that. He killed . . . perhaps four million.' 'He must've had formidable weaponry to kill that many, Sire. Lasbeams, perhaps, or . . .' 'He didn't kill them himself, Stil. He killed the way I kill, by sending out his legions. There's another emperor I want you to note in passing--a Hitler. He killed more than six million. Pretty good for those days.' 'Killed . . . by his legions?' Stilgar asked. 'Yes.' 'Not very impressive statistics, m'Lord.' "

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




battlepigeon posted:

I'm in the mood for more Dune!

Is the miniseries from 2000 and 2003 worth checking out? The late 90s/early 2000s CGI looks sketchy as gently caress, but the cast looks pretty good atleast.

It cast the perfect actor for the Baron at least.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play


John Harrison, who wrote and directed the miniseries, is an executive producer on DUNC :eng101:

Mikojan
May 12, 2010

PLANES BITCHES!

Never read DUNE and went to see the movie because I'm a giant sci-fi nerd when it comes to the big screen.

Was impressed by the visuals but the characters had little to no depth to me. Which prompts me to buying the books and just go straight to the source.

My number one take-away from the movie that Warhammer 40k is basically DUNE and I love the everloving poo poo out of WH40k worldbuilding so yes, I think I'm gonna like this.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



Yeah Dune is basically Warhammer 10k and things are just gonna continue getting worse.

Trump
Jul 16, 2003

Cute

Watched it Thursday in Atmos. Good movie, sucked me in with the world building and atmosphere. Chalamet owned his role, I loved his subtle assertiveness. Everything about the Harkonnen and the Sarduakar was metal as gently caress.

Question about something in the beginning of the movie
Who spoke the very first line? The one before the credits?

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


You can kinda see the Cold War in Dune, in that the Harkonnen are nakedly abusive while the Atreides use propaganda and pageantry to cloak virtually the same abuses in heroism.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Arglebargle III posted:

You can kinda see the Cold War in Dune, in that the Harkonnen are nakedly abusive while the Atreides use propaganda and pageantry to cloak virtually the same abuses in heroism.

This is my favourite little detail in the Spice Miner scene - the Duke spots the worm, and he and Gurney immediately spin it into a propaganda victory about how much he cares about the lives of his men. But he does also care, and gets genuinely angry about it. Which if anything, makes it even more cynical that the Atreides go to great lengths to tell everyone how noble they are.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Yeah, it's not that Leto isn't a a good person so much that it doesn't matter.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Leto does strike you as fundamentally a good and smart person, but he's stuck playing the aristocratic game a little too well to be safe and a little too poorly to win. In the book it's not even subtext since we see that he has serious doubts and wants to give it all up.

Kurzon
May 10, 2013


Mikojan posted:

My number one take-away from the movie that Warhammer 40k is basically DUNE and I love the everloving poo poo out of WH40k worldbuilding so yes, I think I'm gonna like this.
WH40K cribs a few things from Dune but they deal with very different themes.

THE AWESOME GHOST
Oct 21, 2005



Trump posted:

Watched it Thursday in Atmos. Good movie, sucked me in with the world building and atmosphere. Chalamet owned his role, I loved his subtle assertiveness. Everything about the Harkonnen and the Sarduakar was metal as gently caress.

Question about something in the beginning of the movie
Who spoke the very first line? The one before the credits?

Felt like the sardukar throat singer

Baron von Eevl posted:

My take with Herbert is he believed most strongly that the USSR was evil incarnate and anything that stopped them was an improvement, and while he was probably generally anti-colonialist it was probably mostly directed towards that evil empire. On top of that it's not hard to read from him a respect for Arab people as a noble savage type thing, but that if they ever got an inch of real power they'd kill everyone out of pure unbridled fanaticism

Thatís so obvious now that I feel dumb. Baron VLADIMIR lol. The USSR also tried very very hard to make the Arabs part of their soft empire, to the point that when Dune was written it was even run by Gamal Abdul Nasser - whoís party were the Arab Socialists strongly supported by the USSR, and who the US and Israel tried to force out in a very widely publicized incident to regain the Suez Canal (basically the spacing guild? I dunno)

distortion park
Apr 25, 2011



Arglebargle III posted:

You can kinda see the Cold War in Dune, in that the Harkonnen are nakedly abusive while the Atreides use propaganda and pageantry to cloak virtually the same abuses in heroism.

Outside of aesthetics and wanting to ally with rather than nakedly oppress the Fremen (even that is instrumental), is there anything in the movie which establishes any sort of moral superiority on the Atreides' part? We get told that they rule their own world by air and sea power.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Yeah just like their general behavior. Leto is a better person than Vladimir and that comes through in his rule. But ultimately they are both hereditary nobility who run entire planets as imperial fiefs backed up by military force. In the book Caladan's economy is explicitly cash-cropping, while Geidi Prime runs on low-end manufacturing. The Atreides are plantation owners.

Wizchine
Sep 17, 2007

Television is the retina
of the mind's eye.


It's been years since my last read, but iirc the Atreides are also popular with the small houses because they look out for the little guy (well, at least little-guy aristocracies) and don't just stomp all over them. Part of it is politicking and alliance-building, of course, but not all.

Baron von Eevl
Jan 24, 2005

WHITE NOISE
GENERATOR


THE AWESOME GHOST posted:

Felt like the sardukar throat singer

Thatís so obvious now that I feel dumb. Baron VLADIMIR lol. The USSR also tried very very hard to make the Arabs part of their soft empire, to the point that when Dune was written it was even run by Gamal Abdul Nasser - whoís party were the Arab Socialists strongly supported by the USSR, and who the US and Israel tried to force out in a very widely publicized incident to regain the Suez Canal (basically the spacing guild? I dunno)

Spice = oil, you need it to allow any transportation and boy it comes from the ground in the desert.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


Baron von Eevl posted:

Spice = oil, you need it to allow any transportation and boy it comes from the ground in the desert.

But also it was written in the 60s so :catdrugs:

Baron von Eevl
Jan 24, 2005

WHITE NOISE
GENERATOR


Well yes naturally

TLM3101
Sep 8, 2010





Baron von Eevl posted:

Spice = oil, you need it to allow any transportation and boy it comes from the ground in the desert.

This comes together beautifully with what is my favourite little joke in the entire book; what Herbert named the spice.

Shanty
Nov 7, 2005

I Love Dogs


TLM3101 posted:

This comes together beautifully with what is my favourite little joke in the entire book; what Herbert named the spice.

Melange? I don't get it.

TLM3101
Sep 8, 2010





Shanty posted:

Melange? I don't get it.

Melange can be translated as 'variety'. Hence, in Dune, Variety is literally the spice of life. And in oh so many ways!

THE AWESOME GHOST
Oct 21, 2005



Baron von Eevl posted:

Spice = oil, you need it to allow any transportation and boy it comes from the ground in the desert.

Yeah this part I always saw and Iíve seen interviews where Herbert makes it explicit. He also called out decades back that he thinks wars in the near future will eventually be fought over Water which is why he wanted to make it such an important part of the story

Kurzon
May 10, 2013


A thing to note about the Cold War comparisons is that the United States was not a classic imperialist. If the Americans were meddling in other countries, it was usually for security, not resource extraction. The Americans wanted to contain the spread of communism, which terrified them. That's true even for oil. People forget that America already has vast reserves of oil, and with the shale oil revolution America is now self-sufficient when it comes to energy.

The Atreides are definitely nicer than the Harkonnens because we see that in their private conversations. Leto is not going to bullshit his son and heir the way he bullshits the peasants.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Kurzon posted:

A thing to note about the Cold War comparisons is that the United States was not a classic imperialist. If the Americans were meddling in other countries, it was usually for security, not resource extraction. The Americans wanted to contain the spread of communism, which terrified them. That's true even for oil. People forget that America already has vast reserves of oil, and with the shale oil revolution America is now self-sufficient when it comes to energy.

Absolute ahistorical nonsense, just because the US has its own Oil reserves doesnt mean they arent affected by global market price fluctuations, and things like the Saudi Oil embargo in the 70s can, and did, affect the US very negatively. In addition if you think the US is not involved in resource extraction in its client states then I wonder what you think the United Fruit Company or similar corporations were doing. In the United States Imperialism is a public private partnership and several of our most blatant acts of Imperial plunder have always been laundered through the private sector.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003



Kurzon posted:

A thing to note about the Cold War comparisons is that the United States was not a classic imperialist. If the Americans were meddling in other countries, it was usually for security, not resource extraction. The Americans wanted to contain the spread of communism, which terrified them. That's true even for oil. People forget that America already has vast reserves of oil, and with the shale oil revolution America is now self-sufficient when it comes to energy.

The Atreides are definitely nicer than the Harkonnens because we see that in their private conversations. Leto is not going to bullshit his son and heir the way he bullshits the peasants.

lol if you think the war in Vietnam was purely a effort in containment.

Bedshaped
Apr 1, 2010




Soiled Meat

Can someone who's seen the movie or read the books explain what in the everloving hell that spider thing was?

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

scanning for good game design


They condensed all the "wow the Harkonnen are gross bastards" scenes into one... thing and it worked

Spermando
Jun 13, 2009


Bedshaped posted:

Can someone who's seen the movie or read the books explain what in the everloving hell that spider thing was?

Just a creepy thing they added to make the Harkonnens seem more creepy and otherworldly. In the book they're just regular people.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



I was hoping it was meant to be a chairdog, but probably not.

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002



battlepigeon posted:

I'm in the mood for more Dune!

Is the miniseries from 2000 and 2003 worth checking out? The late 90s/early 2000s CGI looks sketchy as gently caress, but the cast looks pretty good atleast.

Depends a lot on your willingness to fill in the blanks - not only in the aforementioned CGI, but some of the acting, etc. Some are good though. Someone above already mentioned the Baron is pretty fantastic and others too, e.g. James McAvoy as Leto II in Children. There are good points and bad points to it. It's a pretty faithful adaptation as far as that goes. I like it, and others do, but many others also don't.

In other words, watch it and form your own opinion.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Paul is badly miscast but I like what they did with the miniseries on a tight budget generally.

stratdax
Sep 14, 2006



sean10mm posted:

But also it was written in the 60s so :catdrugs:

Yes definitely. Spice is used to expand your conciousness after all.

battlepigeon posted:

I'm in the mood for more Dune!

Is the miniseries from 2000 and 2003 worth checking out? The late 90s/early 2000s CGI looks sketchy as gently caress, but the cast looks pretty good atleast.

Approach it like you're watching a stage play that's been filmed. Especially with the monologues and cheap sets and costumes.

stratdax fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Sep 26, 2021

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


I think Frank Herbet was some kind of 60s California Libertarian, which isn't as bad as 2020s Libertarian but still features a lot of Dumb Ideas.

Also he hated gays, which is pretty obvious in the book.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Yeah, for every aphorism he churns out that's interesting or insightful, there's one that misses and is just (incredibly ironically) reflexive chanting of various memes like "hard times make hard men, etc."

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



There is an incredibly cringeworthy rant about liberals that comes out of nowhere in one of the last two books

Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Yam Slacker

Baron von Eevl posted:

What sticks out to me was when Maiden wrote a song about Dune and contacted his estate about using the name, the response was something like "my father hated rock and roll, but the kind of rock and roll he hated most was heavy metal. And of all the heavy metal, the kind he hated the most was Iron Maiden."
That's kind of hilarious.

https://norselandsrock.com/to-tame-a-land-iron-maiden/

George Orwell's estate similarly rejected David Bowie's plan to adapt 1984 as a play.

Such a weird attitude to have for works that clearly pay homage to the original work. Worst that can happen is...you almost certainly sell more books?

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019
:discourse:


the weird attitude of not wanting to turn a work of art into a franchise with several different types of adaptations that'll probably suck or mangle the source material, lunch boxes and a flamethrower lmao

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sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


Horizon Burning posted:

the weird attitude of not wanting to turn a work of art into a franchise with several different types of adaptations that'll probably suck or mangle the source material, lunch boxes and a flamethrower lmao

Also Iron Maiden were never good.

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