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Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



SolarFire2 posted:

TFA nullifies that by having Han drop out lightspeed within Starkiller Base's atmosphere, then ROS further nullified it by having Poe put the millenium falcon into hyperspace a few feet above a planet surface.

To be fair, that idea was stolen from Lucas' rough draft script of Return of the Jedi, where Han did it to bypass the shield protecting Endor, so it's not something the sequels invented.

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Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




wdarkk posted:

There is actually an explanation that makes perfect sense for the Eagles thing, though.

Mostly that you don't particularly want to check a half-dozen Maiar for "will they loving grab the ring" at the same time.

Also gandalf needed the Fellowship to go to Rohan and Gondor to fix their problems.

Salastine
Nov 4, 2008


wdarkk posted:

There is actually an explanation that makes perfect sense for the Eagles thing, though.

Mostly that you don't particularly want to check a half-dozen Maiar for "will they loving grab the ring" at the same time.

Oh, I know. Though I prefer to go to the idea that the Ring would've corrupted the Eagles and they would've either flown away and hid somewhere or brought it to Sauron whenever the question is brought up.

What I meant by equating those two questions was that the answer to both of them is "because otherwise there wouldn't be a story" (not that such a statement is much of an argument for ignoring oversights or mistakes, of course).

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Cornwind Evil posted:

What annoys me is there's an easy fix.

The whole plot is hinged on that the villains have a new plot device that lets them track people through hyperspace, which is otherwise nigh impossible. Have the rebel leader realize she can reverse it: this will 'stick' her ship to the main ship in a way that normally wouldn't happen. Without this, if she tried to do this 'hyperspace missile, the odds of her hitting anything are minuscule. Voila, same scene, the villains are hoist by their own petard in classic fashion by human ingenuity and the willingness to sacrifice, nothing is rendered impotent, nor does the entire galaxy look like idiots for never thinking of such a move in the who knows how many years the galaxy has been having star wars.

Then again, that's just movies in general. I remember reading once that just because you rendered the whole movie plot moot doesn't mean you're smart, it just means you're a smartass, because virtually NO entertainment will stand up to that sort of probing.

Very little probing is needed here, none at all, some might say, which is the problem. Plot holes happen, they're generally not the largest setpiece in the movie.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


SolarFire2 posted:

Actually pre-TLJ most of the writing was concerned with how hyperspace ramming wasn't possible, because it's such an obvious idea for anyone with a basic understanding of physics. Why would you need a deathstar when you can just strap a hyperdrive to a decently sized asteroid and ram it into a planet at the speed of light? It might now blow the planet to smithereens but it will release enough energy to kill everything on the planet a thousand times over.

Now we're getting towards a future society discovering a past civilization in a galaxy far, far away that blew themselves to smithereens in a bitter planet-destroying war.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



SolarFire2 posted:

TFA nullifies that by having Han drop out lightspeed within Starkiller Base's atmosphere, then ROS further nullified it by having Poe put the millenium falcon into hyperspace a few feet above a planet surface.

if you really want to dig into the nuances here, i think it's notable that both of those events involve the falcon. 30+ years of tinkering from han and chewie could explain why maneuvers like that are possible - seems like a pretty useful trick if you're smuggling, and it's not a big ship. han probably disabled the safeties on the hyperdrive or some poo poo, which is not a standard practice for naval ships and probably intentionally very hard to do on the fly.

the problem with invoking interdictors as the explanation is that the imperial navy doesn't seem to use them in straight-up battles very often; in the EU, thrawn used them very effectively against the new republic precisely because it was a tactic that they hadn't had much experience fighting against. they were relegated to anti-piracy duty, which definitely has some overlap with anti-rebel duty in practice, but not enough to fully wave away the hyperdrive kamikaze tactic.

at a certain point you just have to reconcile yourself to the science fact that star wars makes no goddamn sense sometimes

Salastine posted:

I suppose "why didn't the good guys just hyperspace kill the bad guys" is the Star Wars equivalent of "why didn't the eagles just take the ring to Mordor".

Actually, had there been anything written about hyperspace-kamikazes before The Last Jedi?

the eagles don't take the ring to mordor because the eagles do not, in general, interfere in mortal affairs at all except to save heroes after they have already accomplished their great task. they come up several times in the silmarillion but they never, ever help someone do something other than make an improbable escape after a daring feat - they drive the getaway car if you're somebody that manwe likes, and that's it. by the metaphysical logic of arda, that's a much more coherent explanation than anything involving hyperspace kamikazes in star wars within its system of logic

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Apr 19, 2021

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Jazerus posted:



the problem with invoking interdictors as the explanation is that the imperial navy doesn't seem to use them in straight-up battles very often; in the EU, thrawn used them very effectively against the new republic precisely because it was a tactic that they hadn't had much experience fighting against. they were relegated to anti-piracy duty, which definitely has some overlap with anti-rebel duty in practice, but not enough to fully wave away the hyperdrive kamikaze tactic.

at a certain point you just have to reconcile yourself to the science fact that star wars makes no goddamn sense sometimes

Yeah, I think the EU eventually settled on Interdictors being more or less garbage in straight-up combat because of all the power the gravity well generators drew, which meant they could never be left alone if there was any chance they'd accidentally grab something with some teeth.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




It doesn't really need to be a kamikaze operation though right? Like you can just make hyperspace rockets, no pilot.


Jazerus posted:

at a certain point you just have to reconcile yourself to the science fact that star wars makes no goddamn sense sometimes


the eagles don't take the ring to mordor because the eagles do not, in general, interfere in mortal affairs at all except to save heroes after they have already accomplished their great task. they come up several times in the silmarillion but they never, ever help someone do something other than make an improbable escape after a daring feat - they drive the getaway car if you're somebody that manwe likes, and that's it. by the metaphysical logic of arda, that's a much more coherent explanation than anything involving hyperspace kamikazes in star wars within its system of logic

Yeah SW and LOTR have very different goals and intentions and genres, so they're ultimately subject to very different forms of analysis. The various superpowered immortals of LOTR don't just fix the War of the Rings for the mortals because it is anathema to their natures, if they had a nature that let them just interfere like that they'd stop being the sort of superpowered immortals that can do that (or you're well outside the Third Age in which case good luck).

SW is a lot of things but in its sci-fi elements, part of what makes it tick is that basically everybody has human interests and tries to achieve those goals through tools we see on screen. When a character uses a tool in a dramatically new way, you should extrapolate and wonder about what more can be done with this change to the rules, that's both part of the fun and part of the drama. It also applies backwards to a "why didn't this change happen before," usually in sci-fi it's "some supernerd had to invent a new macguffin" but if the explanation isn't obvious the fiction is effectively inviting you to question it.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Thinking about it I feel like we can actually square the circle of how the hyperspace ram is portrayed with how it never is used otherwise, assuming we accept the following postulates.

1. Hyperspace Rams are very hard to aim.
1A. Acceleration for the jump to hyperspace is nonlinear, meaning you do vastly less damage as you get further back from the ideal impact point. Ramming things after you enter hyperspace either isn't a thing because the gravity well of a ship isn't strong enough to interact, or isn't nearly as effective due to [technobabble]. Thus, the actual "strike zone" of hyperspace ramming is not a line stretching to infinity but a fairly small volume. Holdo found herself accidentally at the perfect range to do so, due to the Will of the Force™.
1B. Accelerating to hyperspace takes time, and a ship cannot deviate from its pre-programmed course while entering (or leaving). Thus, any maneuvering target will require guesswork to hit. Note that presumably Holdo was aiming dead center on the Supremacy, a 70km wide target, but struck off to the side. Once again she was guided by the Force™.

2. Shields can stop a hyperspace ram, but the Supremacy's shields were down. In the EU, there's a comic where the Executor is rammed by a trio of ISDs decelerating out of hyperspace, but the shields prevent all damage (although its firing position is spoiled). As for why the Supremacy would have its shields down in that scene, what exactly was going to shoot at it? The starfighters the Resistance had run out of?

3. Hyperspace ramming a planet IS possible, but planet destruction is considered so monsterous that only the most dark side-controlled factions even consider it.

Thus, we can explain the "million to one shot" line, as well as why it wasn't used against the Death Stars.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


I hope Disney backs up a truck full of money into your front yard and then sets you to work on why you'd put salt into your hand and taste it.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I'm reading a lot of speculation and not enough facts. I will correct this.

So these guys and these guys are basically the same species. Mostly. There's a little in-universe controversy over that.

The first guys are Duros from the planet Duro. They have an extremely old society that lays claim to being one of the first to develop hyperspace. As a result of that, the planet Duro has been left heavily polluted by eons of heavy industry, and most of the planet's population has to live in orbital cities instead of on the planet's surface. Duros throughout the galaxy have a reputation as excellent pilots and explorers, but that also leads to a sort of tragedy for their society in that so many of them spread throughout the galaxy instead of sticking around to improve things.

The second guys are Neimoidians, who are apparently the result of some colonization project by the Duros long ago. Their main world is Neimoidia, but there are a number of other colony worlds (called "purse worlds") under the same political umbrella, the richest and most powerful being Cato Neimoidia. There's some genetic drift between them and the Duros, but the biggest difference is a cultural one, and most of that seems to spring from one particular practice: While Duros prefer to form more traditional family units, Neimoidians are raised in communal hives and grub hatcheries where they are neglected by caretakers and must learn to be greedy to get enough food to survive. That is credited as the reason Neimoidians are as ruthless as they are in the corporate world, and it also turned out to be a liability towards the end of the Clone Wars when during the retaking of Nemoidian worlds for the Republic, a number of grub hatcheries were bombed and the species as a whole was devastated.

And through all of the stuff written about the similarities between the species, there's a lot of stuff and accounts of Duros being extremely offended by being mistaken for Neimoidians or associated with them, but it's weird how it's so one-sided and there's no accounts of Neimoidians being offended at being associated with the Duros, which you'd think if they're so greedy and wealthy there'd be some kind of elitism in there. Or maybe writers go a bit overboard in demonizing the one race because they're villains in the movie.

SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Apr 19, 2021

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



The connection between the two species exists out of universe as well.

Originally the Neimoidians (originally named the Shanterians but later changed to the "Nimoy"dians, but still working for a "Federation" in saucer-shaped ships) were designed to look more similar to the battle droids, with elongated faces and skeletal bodies. Since it would have been too expensive to do these as CG creatures, they were changed to be actors in masks instead. Lucas looked through a book of Star Wars aliens and chose the Duros for the new design, but after being told that they already had species backstory in the EU, had them changed enough to be a new species.

The original design for the Neimoidians was eventually reused for the Geonosians, restoring the visual connection between the battle droids and their creators.

Robot Style fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Apr 19, 2021

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


SlothfulCobra posted:

I'm reading a lot of speculation and not enough facts. I will correct this.

So these guys and these guys are basically the same species. Mostly. There's a little in-universe controversy over that.

The first guys are Duros from the planet Duro. They have an extremely old society that lays claim to being one of the first to develop hyperspace. As a result of that, the planet Duro has been left heavily polluted by eons of heavy industry, and most of the planet's population has to live in orbital cities instead of on the planet's surface. Duros throughout the galaxy have a reputation as excellent pilots and explorers, but that also leads to a sort of tragedy for their society in that so many of them spread throughout the galaxy instead of sticking around to improve things.

The second guys are Neimoidians, who are apparently the result of some colonization project by the Duros long ago. Their main world is Neimoidia, but there are a number of other colony worlds (called "purse worlds") under the same political umbrella, the richest and most powerful being Cato Neimoidia. There's some genetic drift between them and the Duros, but the biggest difference is a cultural one, and most of that seems to spring from one particular practice: While Duros prefer to form more traditional family units, Neimoidians are raised in communal hives and grub hatcheries where they are neglected by caretakers and must learn to be greedy to get enough food to survive. That is credited as the reason Neimoidians are as ruthless as they are in the corporate world, and it also turned out to be a liability towards the end of the Clone Wars when during the retaking of Nemoidian worlds for the Republic, a number of grub hatcheries were bombed and the species as a whole was devastated.

And through all of the stuff written about the similarities between the species, there's a lot of stuff and accounts of Duros being extremely offended by being mistaken for Neimoidians or associated with them, but it's weird how it's so one-sided and there's no accounts of Neimoidians being offended at being associated with the Duros, which you'd think if they're so greedy and wealthy there'd be some kind of elitism in there. Or maybe writers go a bit overboard in demonizing the one race because they're villains in the movie.

I never really saw Neimodians as particularly greedy, just dumb as rocks, which would be the expected byproduct of being consistently malnourished in their hatcheries.

The Republic is also described as a place where capitalist bureaucrats would be common.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

reignofevil posted:

I hope Disney backs up a truck full of money into your front yard and then sets you to work on why you'd put salt into your hand and taste it.

This reminds me of a bit from the movie "Showtime." Eddie Murphy is an actor who is cast in a "reality TV show" with real cop Robert De Niro. They hire an actor with experience playing a cop on TV (the great Bill Shatner!), and he shows Eddie Murphy's character about how he would taste drugs to test them for the TV show. De Niro retorts, "What if that was poison? That's why real cops don't do that."

It's funny because the tasting something to show that it is salt is a very cinematic thing to do, but eating something off of an alien planet's ground is probably one of the dumbest things you could do.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



SlothfulCobra posted:


The first guys are Duros from the planet Duro. They have an extremely old society that lays claim to being one of the first to develop hyperspace. As a result of that, the planet Duro has been left heavily polluted by eons of heavy industry, and most of the planet's population has to live in orbital cities instead of on the planet's surface. Duros throughout the galaxy have a reputation as excellent pilots and explorers, but that also leads to a sort of tragedy for their society in that so many of them spread throughout the galaxy instead of sticking around to improve things.

the duros are cool. always thought they should be more prominent, basically the #2 species in terms of population behind humans given how long they've been farting around in space. give me some founding of the republic era stories with humans, duros, and hutts as the primary space-faring species - and no goddamn jedi!!!

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


The only thing I've seen like that is the beginning of the Essential Guide to Warfare that goes into things like Warlord Xim or the Alaskan conflicts. It's more interesting than you'd expect, but I wonder if a book like that could pull off that kind of storytelling with significant appeal if it didn't have a massive franchise behind it.

I kinda like just how hosed the planet Duro is. Its best days are behind it, ruined by past successes. Their industry ruined the planet and their exploration and involvement in the rest of the galaxy is still steadily robbing the planet of its future.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Jazerus posted:

the duros are cool. always thought they should be more prominent, basically the #2 species in terms of population behind humans given how long they've been farting around in space.

SlothfulCobra posted:

I kinda like just how hosed the planet Duro is. Its best days are behind it, ruined by past successes. Their industry ruined the planet and their exploration and involvement in the rest of the galaxy is still steadily robbing the planet of its future.

This also kind of draws attention to how strange it is that the human homeworld has never been confirmed in either canon. Like, was it one of those Lucas decrees that they could never reveal where humans came from, or was it just something that nobody really wanted to tackle? I could see how establishing an actual human homeworld would set in stone the fact that they are alien creatures that just happen to look like us, which might be weird to deal with, but it's better than what Bantam was going to do, with humans settling on Corellia after time travelling from the earth of THX-1138.

It's not even something that seems like it should be mysterious, like Yoda's species. Human beings are the most mundane things in the entire galaxy, so saying they come from Hume or whatever shouldn't be a big deal.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Dumbest idea: convergent evolution, humans evolved on dozens of planets simultaneously.

Even dumbest-er idea: humans are so short sighted they lost the records.

Though AFAIK the real canon just doesn't care and the EU canon says that everybody lost track the historical records about this (which is extremely lol).

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I think there's been a few attempts like with Corellia being from outside the galaxy or Knights of the Old Republic having that bit implying that Tatooine could've been the original homeworld of humans before it got lasered into an inhospitable desert. There's a bunch of different groups of ancient aliens that could've been responsible for anything.

It kinda reminds me of the Foundation series where they lost track of humanity's origins even though they still use the same Earth length day and year, and just kinda assume that they came from somewhere in the center of the galaxy. There's apparently some similar in-universe theories that humans originated on Coruscant, which they definitely didn't because there's a whole thing where Coruscant's original dominant species got pushed offworld in a war and went off to found the Mandalorians before eventually dying out in their wars and their culture being carried on by more humans who were their comrades in their wars.

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Tatooine's been implied to be the human homeworld a few times, IIRC. And I feel like humanity having no known homeworld definitely came up in conversation in the EU at least once.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

They could always do something like reveal humanity was a slave species spread throughout the galaxy by one of those ancient empires (like the Rakatans and the Infinite Empire), or go the Star Trek route and say a Preserver-like group seeded different planets with genetic material.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




Humans are what happens when a Yoda fucks a Hurt, you're welcome.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Bogus Adventure posted:

They could always do something like reveal humanity was a slave species spread throughout the galaxy by one of those ancient empires (like the Rakatans and the Infinite Empire), or go the Star Trek route and say a Preserver-like group seeded different planets with genetic material.

the rakatans are almost certainly the explanation at least in part. they had a big fuckoff war with some other ancient aliens pretty close to coruscant and corellia, and they had force-based stargates to a bunch of other places in the galaxy. this is maybe how the chiss came to be, too - the rakata were initially based in the unknown regions.

the preserver-type explanation doesn't make too much sense because humans are all virtually identical and the human ancestry of near-human species like the twi'leks is part of recorded history, if a dim and unclear part of history

the real answer however, is that corran horn retroactively created humans by loving an otter in a time paradox

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Jazerus posted:

the rakatans are almost certainly the explanation at least in part. they had a big fuckoff war with some other ancient aliens pretty close to coruscant and corellia, and they had force-based stargates to a bunch of other places in the galaxy. this is maybe how the chiss came to be, too - the rakata were initially based in the unknown regions.

the preserver-type explanation doesn't make too much sense because humans are all virtually identical and the human ancestry of near-human species like the twi'leks is part of recorded history, if a dim and unclear part of history

the real answer however, is that corran horn retroactively created humans by loving an otter in a time paradox

I think Corran Horn loving an otter is how Wookies were made

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

Bogus Adventure posted:

I think Corran Horn loving an otter is how Wookies were made

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



there is a part of ancient republic history in the old canon, when they just became the imperium of man for like a couple hundred years.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Pius_Dea

Ethics_Gradient
May 5, 2015

Common misconception that; that fun is relaxing. If it is, you're not doing it right.

Sith Lords coming in twos is just a manifestation of the Hegelian dialectic.

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


Dapper_Swindler posted:

there is a part of ancient republic history in the old canon, when they just became the imperium of man for like a couple hundred years.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Pius_Dea

When they mentioned commissars I made a fart noise irl

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Bogus Adventure posted:

Anakin's lightsaber survived the fall down through the atmosphere of Bespin

Ehhh, this one at least is understandable, it's not certain that the lightsaber would have gotten sucked into the same air shaft that led outside; maybe it landed somewhere else and didn't get sucked out into Bespin, and some maintenance worker/droid eventually found it.

MadDogMike
Apr 9, 2008

Can I come out and play?

Dapper_Swindler posted:

there is a part of ancient republic history in the old canon, when they just became the imperium of man for like a couple hundred years.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Pius_Dea

I did find it amusing it's a fanatical religion that follows a Goddess, at least; slight twist on the typical patriarchal formula.

Regarde Aduck
Oct 18, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 3 days!


Grimey Drawer

Jazerus posted:

the rakatans are almost certainly the explanation at least in part. they had a big fuckoff war with some other ancient aliens pretty close to coruscant and corellia, and they had force-based stargates to a bunch of other places in the galaxy. this is maybe how the chiss came to be, too - the rakata were initially based in the unknown regions.

the preserver-type explanation doesn't make too much sense because humans are all virtually identical and the human ancestry of near-human species like the twi'leks is part of recorded history, if a dim and unclear part of history

the real answer however, is that corran horn retroactively created humans by loving an otter in a time paradox

So was Corran Horn like more human than human? So that the Otterness just made the offspring look like us? What does a human look like without the Otter!?

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Regarde Aduck posted:

So was Corran Horn like more human than human? So that the Otterness just made the offspring look like us? What does a human look like without the Otter!?

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Sylink
Apr 17, 2004



SlothfulCobra posted:

I only ever started worrying about the implications of nobody apparently ever thinking about that before weeks after seeing it, and while I was watching the movie, I was more concerned with those other ships that were in the nuRebel fleet back when it was still a fleet who had scenes where they died horribly where you just knew their sacrifice would be unremembered and unmourned and left mostly meaningless by the plot. If ramming was on the table, you'd think they could have their own big cool moments, but no.


They really weren't. Lucas was actually pretty restrained with the supernatural abilities of jedi, much like how Tolkien was pretty restrained with how much magic Gandalf does. In RotJ Luke's got a couple super jumps and a little ESP, and that's it. Even in the prequels, the jedi didn't actually sling around very much magic by the standards of like superhero media. There absolutely wasn't the thing that happened with DBZ where powers just get inflated indefinitely until nothing really means anything because everything is so powerful that it's too abstract to meaningfully depict.

The sequels give off a real feeling of writers taking all the toys of the franchise and trying to push them to the limits of what could possibly be done with them. Instead of trying to find a groove of their own, everything is constantly framed in the perspective of the franchise, even if you're actively trying to be charitable and not do your own direct comparisons.

Tolkien did this off-screen/page as it were. When Gandalf falls in Moria some crazy poo poo happens but its not described other than Gandalf *chased* a Balrog out from the underworld where even the Balrog didn't want to be. And the Balrog was running from that AND Gandalf.

So old wizard man must have some moves.

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