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Flavius Aetass
Mar 30, 2011





C-Euro posted:

The biggest Star Wars nerd (self-proclaimed) that I know hated TLJ and said that TROS "redeemed the sequel trilogy" for him. Sadly I hadn't seen it yet when he said because I would have loved to take a deeper dive into that.

i kinda feel the same way tbh

TROS wasn't great as a movie but it was a lot better than TLJ as a star wars story

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Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007



zoux posted:

It fell down a big hole into a gas giant.

Well after ROS clearly falling down a big pit on a station is like the least effective way to get rid of anything in the Star Wars universe

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Flavius Aetass posted:

i kinda feel the same way tbh

TROS wasn't great as a movie but it was a lot better than TLJ as a star wars story

See that's the thing. I'm largely just "eh, it was okay" about TLJ, but I can't stand ROS purely because it's a 2 hour temper tantrum that spends most of its runtime actively trying to wipe TLJ away instead of just taking a breath and figuring out how to end the story based on what TLJ left you with like a mature big boy writer would. You know, like Colin Trevorrow apparently did before they fired him.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Gulping Again posted:

Honestly Ian McDiarmid hamming out is the best gift Star Wars has ever given us. The man's straight up fun to watch go into full cackling villain mode.

Yeah, if anyone deserves a D+ series and 3M/ep it's McDiarmid.

Ideally it's an Armando Iannucci running a Thick of It/Veep series of Senator Sheev during the run up to O66.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jan 24, 2020

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



I loving love TLJ, I love it more every time I see it, I'm in love with Kylo AND Rey in that movie and I read a bunch of early reviews of TROS that said "If you hated TLJ you'll love this and vice versa" and I thought "well surely it can't be that bad" and since I tend to like things and forgive shortcomings in things I like I figured I'd be fine with it but after reading about the story I'm kind of mad about it?

cams
Mar 28, 2003




C-Euro posted:

The biggest Star Wars nerd (self-proclaimed) that I know hated TLJ and said that TROS "redeemed the sequel trilogy" for him. Sadly I hadn't seen it yet when he said because I would have loved to take a deeper dive into that.
uh oh your friend is a giant dumbshit

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Poopernickel posted:

Did anybody else wonder about the logistics of building and staffing a large fleet of ships around a planet that literally nobody can get to without a transceiver that's been missing for like 50 years?

And also lol @ the idea that they only built two - guess the Sith planet must have had a lot of gardeners because they sure weren't trading for food.

I talked about this too! Sci-fi movies are usually pretty bad about logistics, but this one was so bad that even someone who doesn't know poo poo about war could probably smell something off.

1. Where did this crew come from? Each Star Destroyer takes thousands of crewmembers and all of them are wearing brand new First Order uniforms. Did they know they were working for Palpatine? Did they just think it was some weird off-world assignment? And how long were they there? Did the guys who get recruited early have to spend years sitting around bullshitting until it was time for them to go and they're all middle-aged now? Were they waiting in the ships underwater for Palpatine to raise them at a suitably dramatic moment? Was there one bridge crew that got really drunk the night before because they didn't think anything was happening and they showed up hungover in their PJs? Because that poo poo happened with the Luftwaffe once and it's hilarious to read.

2. Do they get regular shipments of supplies (food, power cells, spare parts, entertainment options, etc.) or do they produce it on Exegol?

3. If they do produce it on Exegol, what's it like? Do these farms and factories all have the same Sith aesthetic with statues and lightning and creepy hooded dudes staring at you when you work, or is it like Disney where you open a door in the queue and there's just these regular hallways with fluorescent lights and Sith motivational posters? Or a little cartoon Palpatine-on-a-stick on every safety sign. If Kylo Ren went through the wrong door trying to find Palpatine at the beginning, would he have accidentally walked into a dressing room or cafeteria?

4. JAR OF PICKLED SNOKES

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




zoux posted:

I loving love TLJ, I love it more every time I see it, I'm in love with Kylo AND Rey in that movie and I read a bunch of early reviews of TROS that said "If you hated TLJ you'll love this and vice versa" and I thought "well surely it can't be that bad" and since I tend to like things and forgive shortcomings in things I like I figured I'd be fine with it but after reading about the story I'm kind of mad about it?

They tried to make the most centrist Star Wars movie ever and just made a film that pissed everyone off because people who liked TLJ thought it catered too much to angry Reddit men, and angry Reddit men thought it didn't cater to them enough even though they won and got TLJ retconned from their brain places by Disney fiat. It's like poetry, it rhymes.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The big problem with TLJ was that at the end there were only eight villain characters- Hux, Kylo, and the Knights Of Ren. The producers of ROS wisely decided to introduce Pryde and Palpatine, bringing the number of villain characters up to a much more manageable ten.

cams
Mar 28, 2003




gently caress i just remembered the knights of ren, what a loving pile of poo poo rise of skywalker is

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




2house2fly posted:

Any creative decision was filtered through "what will a hypothetical Star Wars fanatic think about this" as determined by Disney corporate suits and it's pointless to even attribute anything to JJ because who knows what decisions were his and which ones he fought against and bitterly resents their inclusion.
Normally I'd agree with you, but I feel like Abrams is the perfect director for this sort of thing. I used to think people made way too much out of his "Mystery Box" TED Talk as an explanation for everything he does as a filmmaker, but after seeing the ST I'm not so sure.

2house2fly posted:

The big problem with TLJ was that at the end there were only eight villain characters- Hux, Kylo, and the Knights Of Ren. The producers of ROS wisely decided to introduce Pryde and Palpatine, bringing the number of villain characters up to a much more manageable ten.
Ehhh, let's be honest, the KoR are just an extension of Kylo Ren and how he's changed as Supreme Leader of the First Order.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




cams posted:

gently caress i just remembered the knights of ren, what a loving pile of poo poo rise of skywalker is

That little Han Solo shrug before Ben tools them all in four seconds was legit great though.

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

ROS would have been better if Rey turned evil and then Ben Solo killed her, followed by cut-to-black and roll credits.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



They could have even kept Hux's characterization consistent with a "Ben Solo redeemed" ending. Hux wants power and is a true First Order loyalist, so there's no way he would betray the entire First Order just to get back at Kylo. Instead you could have Kylo redeem himself and return to the Ben Solo identity, only for Hux to take his weakness as an opportunity to seize power. Then it's up to you if you want Ben to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance or survive and become a hermit to meditate on his crimes and discover a way to atone.

nine-gear crow posted:

That little Han Solo shrug before Ben tools them all in four seconds was legit great though.

That was one of the few things I liked, and it made me wish his redemption had more to it. When he returns to his old personality, there's a huge shift in how Adam Driver moves and acts that really sells that he's Han and Leia's kid again.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Actually, that would have been a good way to handle one of the serious plot holes (not the CinemaSins definition, but the actual definition of "Something that should be impossible). When the redeemed Ben escapes the moon and travels to Exegol, there's two main problems:

1. He doesn't have a Wayfinder, so how did he navigate there?

2. The vintage TIE he stole from the Death Star wreckage (which was somehow working after being in a blowing up Death Star, crashing to the ground from space, and sitting there for 30 years to rot?) is a model that has no life support or hyperdrive, even in the current canon.

It would have been funny to have a scene where he realizes this, but comes across one of the ships Lando recruited to the Battle of Exegol and pulling a Han-style fast talk to hitch a ride into hyperspace.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

chitoryu12 posted:

They could have even kept Hux's characterization consistent with a "Ben Solo redeemed" ending. Hux wants power and is a true First Order loyalist, so there's no way he would betray the entire First Order just to get back at Kylo.

I would guess that once Kylo was out of the way, Hux would have stopped feeding info to the Resistance, and that he specifically has been feeding them stuff which they could use against Kylo

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



I thought it was funny when Poe called him General Hugs he got so mad

Chuck Buried Treasure
Dec 27, 2010



nine-gear crow posted:

See that's the thing. I'm largely just "eh, it was okay" about TLJ, but I can't stand ROS purely because it's a 2 hour temper tantrum that spends most of its runtime actively trying to wipe TLJ away instead of just taking a breath and figuring out how to end the story based on what TLJ left you with like a mature big boy writer would. You know, like Colin Trevorrow apparently did before they fired him.

I mean, TLJ did that to TFA too. Abrams clearly intended to do something with Reyís parents, Snoke, etc, just for Johnson to say ďgently caress it.Ē TROS was doomed from the start because even if it had followed up from TLJ youíre getting a trilogy where only 2 movies actually matter.

I guess it would have been a lot less obvious if he had continued from TLJ though

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Chuck Buried Treasure posted:

I mean, TLJ did that to TFA too. Abrams clearly intended to do something with Rey’s parents, Snoke, etc, just for Johnson to say “gently caress it.” TROS was doomed from the start because even if it had followed up from TLJ you’re getting a trilogy where only 2 movies actually matter.

I guess it would have been a lot less obvious if he had continued from TLJ though
Abrams didn't intend for anything, at the time he was only meant to be making that one movie. He just dropped sequel hooks for the writers who came after him to use


zoux posted:

I thought it was funny when Poe called him General Hugs he got so mad
One little bookend I find cute in TLJ is, at the start Poe stalls by saying "I've got a message for Hux about his mother" and at the end Luke stalls by saying "strike me down and I'll always be with you, just like your father

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



2house2fly posted:

One little bookend I find cute in TLJ is, at the start Poe stalls by saying "I've got a message for Hux about his mother" and at the end Luke stalls by saying "strike me down and I'll always be with you, just like your father

The new EU adds something to explain why Hux flies into such a rage: he's a bastard child and Poe just pushed his biggest button.

cams
Mar 28, 2003




my favorite part of "rise of skywalker" was that they sent out oscar screeners for it so i didn't have to pay money to watch it

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

chitoryu12 posted:

4. JAR OF PICKLED SNOKES

What I wanna know is - if Stonks was created by Palpatine, why wasn't he made to be better looking? A charismatic Supreme Leader seems like it would be a no-brainer if you're genetically engineering him anyways. Palps doesn't seem like somebody who misses the small details.

Poopernickel fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 24, 2020

Chuck Buried Treasure
Dec 27, 2010



Poopernickel posted:

What I wanna know is - if Stonks was created by Palpatine, why didn't Sheev make him better looking? A charismatic Supreme Leader seems like a no-brainer. Palps doesn't seem like somebody who misses the small details.

I assumed he was supposed to be a Sheev clone but the technology wasnít perfect and they came out all hosed up, and thatís why he himself was all messed up too, like his body was still under construction or also malformed or whatever. Which doesnít make 100% sense but I guess thatís what happens when the film doesnít explain it

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




My theory is that Snoke is a cheap rush-job. Palpatine didn't want to train a Sith apprentice; they will always betray you, and it's a headache to kill them and clean up the mess, especially when you're in hiding beyond the known universe. So Snoke is just a bio-droid who has crazy Force powers because he's chock-full of midichlorians. The side effects are that he's 20% bigger than a normal human, and he looks like he was reheated in the microwave.

cams
Mar 28, 2003




Chuck Buried Treasure posted:

I assumed he was supposed to be a Sheev clone but the technology wasnít perfect and they came out all hosed up, and thatís why he himself was all messed up too, like his body was still under construction or also malformed or whatever. Which doesnít make 100% sense but I guess thatís what happens when the film doesnít explain it
yeah i hate all of this. snoke works best as just yet another cog in the sith mechanism of power-hungry sadists doing whatever they can to rack up the most evil points.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



If you don't read the novelizations, we know exactly as much about the Emperor at the end of RotJ as we ever learn about Snoke before TRoS, and this was a major problem for the Twittermen

I'm convinced that the vast majority of hate for TLJ, at least the toxic, foamed-mouth kind, is entirely due to the fact that extremely online people spent 18 months arguing and getting super personally invested in their fan theories and when they didn't happen it enraged them. The same thing happens within the shipping community, I understand.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



So why did he have so many? Was it the "First Order" because he was going to do a Second, Third, Fourth, etc. in case Kylo failed him? Just keep coming back every few decades with another empire showing up in the Unknown Regions and a new emo kid to corrupt?

zoux posted:

If you don't read the novelizations, we know exactly as much about the Emperor at the end of RotJ as we ever learn about Snoke before TRoS, and this was a major problem for the Twittermen

The movie also retcons the new canon, as one of the books specifically says Snoke was around watching as the Old Republic fell. They were supposed to have reset the canon to keep everything tight and non-contradictory and it took JJ Abrams one moment of stupidity to ruin it!

Chuck Buried Treasure
Dec 27, 2010



cams posted:

yeah i hate all of this. snoke works best as just yet another cog in the sith mechanism of power-hungry sadists doing whatever they can to rack up the most evil points.

I didnít say it was great lol. I just thought thatís what they were going for.

Ariong
Jun 25, 2012





2house2fly posted:

The big problem with TLJ was that at the end there were only eight villain characters- Hux, Kylo, and the Knights Of Ren. The producers of ROS wisely decided to introduce Pryde and Palpatine, bringing the number of villain characters up to a much more manageable ten.

The Knights of Ren would have worked a lot better for me if they werenít played up so much as an independent entity. If they were just the nameless but formidable elite guard that turns against Kylo after his face turn I would have had pretty much no problem with them.

Angepain
Jul 13, 2012

what keeps happening to my clothes


when his stormtrooper friend pointed out the knights of ren so we knew what the knights of ren were called did one of the stormtroopers say "goals"

Chuck Buried Treasure
Dec 27, 2010



I thought Snoke was going to turn out to be an old, pre-Vader apprentice of Palpatine, and he was all hosed-up looking because he tried to supplant Palps and got fried, and he barely survived. He licked his wounds and stayed in hiding until Palpatine and Vader were gone and he could try to fill the vacuum. This would explain where he got his Dark Side powers and would make him and Kylo both angry failsons.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



I wish he wouldn't have been a hologram in TFA and really was just that giant

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

zoux posted:

I wish he wouldn't have been a hologram in TFA and really was just that giant

That would have been dope

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



chitoryu12 posted:

I talked about this too! Sci-fi movies are usually pretty bad about logistics, but this one was so bad that even someone who doesn't know poo poo about war could probably smell something off.

1. Where did this crew come from? Each Star Destroyer takes thousands of crewmembers and all of them are wearing brand new First Order uniforms. Did they know they were working for Palpatine? Did they just think it was some weird off-world assignment? And how long were they there? Did the guys who get recruited early have to spend years sitting around bullshitting until it was time for them to go and they're all middle-aged now? Were they waiting in the ships underwater for Palpatine to raise them at a suitably dramatic moment? Was there one bridge crew that got really drunk the night before because they didn't think anything was happening and they showed up hungover in their PJs? Because that poo poo happened with the Luftwaffe once and it's hilarious to read.

The crews are all Snoke.

quote:

2. Do they get regular shipments of supplies (food, power cells, spare parts, entertainment options, etc.) or do they produce it on Exegol?

Hundreds of thousands of Snoke artisans keep the base running.

quote:

3. If they do produce it on Exegol, what's it like? Do these farms and factories all have the same Sith aesthetic with statues and lightning and creepy hooded dudes staring at you when you work, or is it like Disney where you open a door in the queue and there's just these regular hallways with fluorescent lights and Sith motivational posters? Or a little cartoon Palpatine-on-a-stick on every safety sign. If Kylo Ren went through the wrong door trying to find Palpatine at the beginning, would he have accidentally walked into a dressing room or cafeteria?

It's like that scene from Clones, but the clones are Snoke. All the people in that arena are also Snokes.

quote:

4. JAR OF PICKLED SNOKES

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

It was a dumb move to have him be bigger than a normal human but like, just a little bit bigger

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013



PittTheElder posted:

The crews are all Snoke.


Hundreds of thousands of Snoke artisans keep the base running.


It's like that scene from Clones, but the clones are Snoke. All the people in that arena are also Snokes.

this would have been cool

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





TLJ was cool and good and ROS was bad, in part because TLJ did a lot of work to set up important themes that could have moved Star Wars in new directions (for example, the most important theme was that anyone can be a jedi, you don't need to be part of important families, because there's a whole galaxy of people out there and things keep happening even when the main characters are not present) and then ROS just undid all of that for no reason other than that star wars fans don't like new things and JJ Abrams is a hack

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Chuck Buried Treasure posted:

I thought Snoke was going to turn out to be an old, pre-Vader apprentice of Palpatine, and he was all hosed-up looking because he tried to supplant Palps and got fried, and he barely survived. He licked his wounds and stayed in hiding until Palpatine and Vader were gone and he could try to fill the vacuum. This would explain where he got his Dark Side powers and would make him and Kylo both angry failsons.
That's basically the story of all the Sith apprentices from the Clone Wars, so it fits.

They could have just made Asajj Ventress the Supreme Leader of the First Order.

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

vyelkin posted:

TLJ was cool and good and ROS was bad

I agree with this post.

It would have been awesome if they'd let TLJ be the end of the Jedi and Sith. Then the next movie could have had some different force-users with new philosophies. Like maybe use the Knights of Ren to explore what it means to be a dark-side user that isn't Sith.

But hey, why do that when you can put Palpatron 9000 on The Planet Of Pure Evil Where Nobody Is Good And Everybody Is Evil?

Poopernickel fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jan 24, 2020

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Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

so what's the other half hour

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