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CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



lmao, yeah so it's all for dumb reasons people hate rian johnson.

i got it.

maybe i dunno, get over it? He doesnt run the company or have any say in star wars movies lmao.

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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





nine-gear crow posted:

I mean you left it a little ambiguous as to whether you believed what you posting rather than posting it for the sake of argument, but the point remains. Most of peoples "I will die mad about this" contentions with the film are remarkably flimsy and fall apart when poked at even slightly. The biggest one being the all-encompassing one "people got eternally mad over and constructed their own set of QAnon-level insanity around a movie about space wizards made for children"

A lot of them are flimsy, sure. We both agree that chud tears over diversity are dumb and that FN got screwed over. I do understand that people are upset over the direction they took Luke, but ultimately this is a personal preference and while it 's understandable it would impact someones enjoyment of the film, it's not an indictment of the quality of the film, so I technically agree with you there too.

The last two points though I feel are more or less legitimate grievances. TFA was all about appealing to the nostalgia of the star wars fans, It was all shallow fan service sure, but it did work. Folks got a space adventure with lightsabers again, and they probably expected TLJ to elaborate on the mystery boxes and set up a continuation of the fun space adventure space opera. That's obviously not what happened. Instead TFA and TLJ seem to be trying to appeal to two very different sets of fans, with TLJ course correcting and undoing some stuff set up by TFA and then Rise course correcting again to undo the undoings of TLJ. I suspect there was a lot of executive meddling here, so I think it's a bit unfair to lay the blame entirely on JJ or Rian. Communication and planning would have avoided a lot of issues.

And, like Cease points out, there are more than a few contradictions going on. Poe disobeying an order to destroy a super ship that it turns out would have destroyed the fleet, but it's still made out as if Poe was in the wrong, somehow. Or how the entire Luke-Kylo incident is basically that Luke is about to pull an anakin, scares the poo poo out of Kylo, who then apparently murders his friends and escapes, and then Luke fucks off into exile without telling anyone, including Kylos Parents, his best friend and sister, what happened, but still left clues as how to be found, for some reason (?!). Someone called this the ultimate liberal movie, and this is perfectly exemplified in FN and Rose rescuing an enslaved horse but leaving the slave boy, who helped them escape, behind.

TLJ is a flawed film. There's a lot of dumb reasons to dislike it, and there's a lot of valid criticisms against it.

None of that obviously justifies hating Rian or the many lenghty youtube videos about how Kathleen and rian raped Star wars or whatever, but I think we all know who the target audience for those videos are. And to still be obsessing over it is obviously weird. It's out, it's done, move on.

Google Butt
Oct 4, 2005

Xenology is an unnatural mixture of science fiction and formal logic. At its core is a flawed assumption...

that an alien race would be psychologically human.



the Kathleen rian hate grift is 95% of the star war yt content lol

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





Snoke should have been played by Laura Dern.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




josh04 posted:

Snoke should have been played by Laura Dern.

I would love to see her take on Andy Serkis’s slow rising anger crecendo on the line “...bested by a girl, who’d never held a LIGHTSABER!!!”

I guess that is one thing Snoke does that Palpatine doesn’t. Palpy never got full on screaming mad at anyone because he was always in complete control over poo poo, so seeing Snoke fly into utterly unhinge rages was quite refreshing especially since Sith are supposed to be driven by their baser emotions.

nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jan 11, 2021

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

even if you like everything about TLJ’s story, characterizations, and themes, I don’t see how you can argue it shouldn’t lose at least 15-20 minutes. it’s so loving long and plodding at times

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




A lot to nearly all of the bits that TLJ's fans praised it for are pretty dulled in retrospect since they all got walked back so hard

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

yeah cause they all sucked probably

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



nine-gear crow posted:

The Mystery Boxes were always empty. JJ didn't put poo poo inside them and blowing them all up was a great move. Snoke was a boring-rear end empty suit of an archetype and Kylo Ren merc'ing him randomly and then becoming the main villain was a shocking and brilliant twist because he was an infinitely better character to follow and his journey to becoming the top villain was one of the best parts of the trilogy until Abrams ruined with "Somehow... [soul-ejecting sigh] Palpatine returned."

Oh, I know they were empty, most of us now know they were empty, and I'm sure that people who were acutely aware of JJ Abram's creative style could guess that they were empty back when the movie first came out.

But the key thing is, mystery boxes only work in the first place because when you lie to the audience and say there was something in there, they believe the lie. That's why people kept sticking with Lost. People who weren't aware of how Abrams was a charlatan but were aware of Disney's other serial movie franchise would probably expect Disney's plans for Star Wars to be as detailed as comic book storylines from 30-60 years ago that had most of their issues worked out, or maybe they'd expect something like how all the other Star Wars movies managed to dovetail together nicely.

So people didn't know how much JJA hosed everything until he left somebody else to take the blame.

nine-gear crow posted:

The theme of the film is "Failure is the greatest teacher of all". How does a film that is 90 minutes of people loving up royally and then learning from their mistakes so they don't gently caress up again when it comes put up or shut up time "undermine its own themes"?

I mean, I see a lot of failing and loving up, I don't really see much learning in the movie.

And it's 150 minutes long.

CelticPredator posted:

lmao, yeah so it's all for dumb reasons people hate rian johnson.

i got it.

maybe i dunno, get over it? He doesnt run the company or have any say in star wars movies lmao.

I mean, you ask a question you get an answer. His movie was the one that most revealed how Disney had to real plan or strategy or creative intent for the franchise, and traditionally movies normally get blamed on the director.

And this is the thread about not being over and done with talking about the sequel trilogy.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Yeah but I hate them and I’m tired of their lovely YT content lol

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008


nine-gear crow posted:

Ah yes, it's the people defending something they love from the angry irrational mob that has tried to destroy it and multiple people involved its creation's lives because 90 minutes of cinema drove them brain-ripping mad and stained their very being, it's those people who have made things tense. Yes

The good ol' War of Last Jedi Defender Aggression.

its 2 and a half hours long

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





The thing about mystery boxes is that even if they're empty, there's potential for something good. I remember there was tons of buzz from a lot of folks (including my partner) about said boxes and what tantalizing plot twist might be inside them.

It would have been better to try and make the best of the boxes instead of tossing them out the window, imo.


CelticPredator posted:

Yeah but I hate them and I’m tired of their lovely YT content lol

Bro loving tell me about it. Just shut the duck up and stop making lovely videos with lovely hot takes. They know controversy brings clicks so they fall over each other with the dumbest takes.

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!


Oven Wrangler

TLJ and The Mandalorian are the best things to come out of Star Wars in 30 years, thank you for coming to my TED talk

AdmiralViscen
Nov 2, 2011




I think having Rey be no one and discover that she needs to define her life on her own terms was the best possible outcome for that mystery box

Did anyone actually give a poo poo who snoke was? Lol

Google Butt
Oct 4, 2005

Xenology is an unnatural mixture of science fiction and formal logic. At its core is a flawed assumption...

that an alien race would be psychologically human.



frankly movies can gently caress off I want at least 12 hours of content in the form of a show gently caress you

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



CelticPredator posted:

Yeah but I hate them and I’m tired of their lovely YT content lol

I only see a Last Jedi video if it's from a youtuber who I've already been following, and even then it's a video from 3 years ago.

Maybe click on things you want to watch instead to retrain your algorithm.

AdmiralViscen posted:

Did anyone actually give a poo poo who snoke was? Lol

Maybe if things don't matter don't make them into major plot points of your bad movie.

Google Butt posted:

frankly movies can gently caress off I want at least 12 hours of content in the form of a show gently caress you

Yeah, especially as movies get more up their asses about being massive prestige events they just keep getting longer, while a TV show has more content and yet has a bunch of natural breaks so that you don't have to be obligated to sit in one place for a quarter of your day.

New Super Metis
Aug 1, 2014




genuine question: what's the deal with calling Finn FN?

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


ONE YEAR LATER posted:

TLJ and The Mandalorian are the best things to come out of Star Wars in 30 years, thank you for coming to my TED talk

Neither are as good as Republic Commando's soundtrack imo

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





New Super Metis posted:

genuine question: what's the deal with calling Finn FN?

His imperial designation was FN#, hence Finn, but people are lazy and abbreviate it back to FN.

Which might be a little hosed up, now that I think about it

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

it's a pseudo-meme based on SMG doing it to point out how absurd it is that Finn would use a name based on the designation given to him, because some other guy heard the designation and started calling him it. it reminds me a little of how anakin goes from calling his slaveowner 'master' to his jedi superiors 'master', except the movies do their level best to make 'Finn' sound like a name he happily chose for himself rather than poe just deciding for him.

more importantly, 'Finn' isn't a very star warsian name, that pointedly describes the type of character he is.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


McCloud posted:

admiral that chewed out the male main character

what's baffling to me is that the movie seems so contradictory on this. like on the one hand poe's an insubordinate jackass that deserves to get slapped down, and gets the bomber force annihilated. but at the end of the movie the admiral and general are all "awwww he's our ~future~" ??????

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Finn isn't particularly sci-fi as a name, but it fits better into the setting than Kyle.

Come to think of it, I'd think that Finn would have a lot more to gain from finding the family that he was stolen from as a child than Rey, since he has to literally create an entirely new identity and belief system from scratch while Rey seems to have matured and knows how to look after herself right from the beginning. Feels like there's some kind of patriarchy baggage there.

Although after dropping the fact that the new Stormtroopers are all abducted child soldiers, there's never any further examination of that or whether Finn needs to learn more about the world outside of imperial servitude.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

what's baffling to me is that the movie seems so contradictory on this. like on the one hand poe's an insubordinate jackass that deserves to get slapped down, and gets the bomber force annihilated. but at the end of the movie the admiral and general are all "awwww he's our ~future~" ??????


It's also that his insubordination clearly saved the fleet, but it's still painted as if he was in the wrong. It feels like two parents scolding their child because they were disobeyed, not because he did something bad

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

McCloud posted:

It's also that his insubordination clearly saved the fleet, but it's still painted as if he was in the wrong. It feels like two parents scolding their child because they were disobeyed, not because he did something bad

his insubordination sold out their secret plans and had them come within a miracle Luke apparition of sure destruction

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.


Their secret plan, it should be noted, was "Fly towards a planet, then get into smaller ships to land there."

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


If the secret plan was even moderately impressive or required being kept secret to work The Last Jedi would have functioned significantly better as a story.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

Angry Salami posted:

Their secret plan, it should be noted, was "Fly towards a planet, then get into smaller ships to land there."

and it would have worked too if it weren’t for those meddling kids

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

AdmiralViscen posted:

Did anyone actually give a poo poo who snoke was? Lol

What SlothfulCobra said. Also, I kinda cared, as far as anyone could care about any character from TFA. He was a possibly gigantic pimp Gollum emperor who apparently succeeded where Sheev failed, he turned a Skywalker. That has potential. While I was disappointed in his size in TLJ I think that part of his presentation was handled best, but drat just imagine if we had got 20 feet Snoke instead. Then TLJ doesn't go into why he is rich/leader of the FO at all, so SMG has to bend over backwards to find information about his background and rise to power in vast amounts of exposition. In ANH, we get the rough idea that the Empire was created out of the Old Republic with the Emperor as the driving force of the creation. The FO with Snoke as their leader is pretty much a creatio ex nihilo, neither TFA nor TLJ even bother to go into their ties to the Empire beyond optics.

And the turning of Ben Solo in TLJ is entirely focused on Kyle's and Luke's role in it. That's like editing out all of the Emperor's scenes out of RotJ except for when he electrocutes Luke.

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008


indigi posted:

his insubordination sold out their secret plans and had them come within a miracle Luke apparition of sure destruction

how did it sell out the secret plan

all they had to do was press a button to find out the secret plan

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



McCloud posted:

It's also that his insubordination clearly saved the fleet, but it's still painted as if he was in the wrong. It feels like two parents scolding their child because they were disobeyed, not because he did something bad

indigi posted:

his insubordination sold out their secret plans and had them come within a miracle Luke apparition of sure destruction

His insubordination at the beginning apparently just wiped out the entire bomber force for little to no benefit, while his insubordination and attempted coup later on had literally no effect.

The admiral's secret plan that she sacrificed many lives for and drove Poe to treason out of frustration was given away by a tramp who apparently knew about the plan without actually having ever heard the plan, so it seems like a dumb idea. Half the transports were destroyed, but by that point the movie had such a ridiculous fatality rate of unseen and unnamed background characters that you're entirely desensitized to all of it.

Everybody dies, the few survivors make a bold speech to the rest of the galaxy that nobody responds to, hope is nothing but brutal suffering in a world that doesn't care.

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot


They don't really say it explicitly but the dreadnought was described as a 'fleet killer' and had big long range guns, so it kind of had to die for the logic of 'we're outside their range' to work in the long chase scene. At least within the movie as released.


Though.... they could have taken the dreadnought out of the movie entirely and just had Snokes ship in from the start; the bombing run didn't change anything. Like they took out the big scary ship and it immediately got replaced with a bigger ship. The only plot relevance the bombing run had was for Poe's characterization which as noted got severely undermined. Even all the rebel bombers getting destroyed didn't change anything since kylo blew up the launch bays later on.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




SlothfulCobra posted:

The admiral's secret plan that she sacrificed many lives for and drove Poe to treason out of frustration was given away by a tramp who apparently knew about the plan without actually having ever heard the plan, so it seems like a dumb idea.

Poe blabs Holdo's plan out in the open over the radio to Finn and Rose when they're on the way back to the fleet. He literally starts going "YO GUYS, HERE'S HOLDO'S SECRET PLAN!" and then it cuts to a shot of DJ in the background perking up and suddenly taking a keen interest in things after seemingly being otherwise asleep or tuned out.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

Poe sent Finn and what’s her name on that stupid mission where they wound up leaking all the info to the First Order like dumbshits, they tell that stuttering guy stuff that he also turned to the FO immediately


e: didn’t see this had been answered

indigi fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jan 12, 2021

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Fuckin hate snoke as much as the YT people

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




The only coherent conflict TLJ has is with itself.

Google Butt
Oct 4, 2005

Xenology is an unnatural mixture of science fiction and formal logic. At its core is a flawed assumption...

that an alien race would be psychologically human.



CelticPredator posted:

Fuckin hate snoke as much as the YT people

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

CelticPredator posted:

Fuckin hate snoke as much as the YT people

Yeah the best possible solution would have been to not have him or a character like him in TFA.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I mean the idea of a nonhuman wannabe Sith Lord was interesting but the execution was laughably bad.

The thing is about Jabram's mystery boxes is that half the fan theories for what's in them are probably better than whatever he ends up last-minute filling them in with.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

So kylo ren definitely murdered baby yoda, right?

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Asgerd
May 6, 2012






Grimey Drawer

Ghost Leviathan posted:

The only coherent conflict TLJ has is with itself.

Remember, sacrificing yourself to save your allies is a good thing, but also a bad thing.

The Jedi texts are really important, except they’re not really, except they actually are (or maybe they’re not?)

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