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vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.




like poo poo, ok, in TLJ for example there's the entire Rose and Finn subplot that a lot of people hated (probably because it featured two actors of colour in leading roles but let's move past that for now), and people acted like that had nothing to do with the rest of the movie but it was actually a really important thematic moment where you see and learn important things for what Rian Johnson was going for in the movie:

1) first of all the galaxy is huge and there's tons of stuff going on outside whatever the heroes are doing at the moment. Are they off fighting the bad guys? Cool, but also there's a whole community of arms dealers and gamblers who don't care about that conflict because they sell weapons to both sides and their lives won't change based on what the Skywalkers choose to eat for breakfast tomorrow. Whereas in ROS one random planet they go to C3PO is like "oh yeah there's this festival happening here that only happens once every hundred years and it just so happens to be going on while we're here because the universe revolves around us and our problems", in TLJ this subplot shows us that for this random arms dealer Monte Carlo planet, this is just another random day and the universe doesn't revolve around the heroes, they just happen to slip in and out of other people's lives.

2) the galaxy is a place full of inequality and injustice, both related to the main plot and unrelated to the main plot, and the good guys can make a difference through small heroic deeds even when they're actively failing and getting their asses kicked in the long run. This could set up a cool long-term storyline where even though the heroes are weaker than the bad guys, they can win over the galaxy as a whole by being legitimately good people who build support through acts of heroism, rather than by finding the McGuffin and killing the bad guy and then all evil is vanquished in the universe.

3) fuckin broom kid, like Rey, is just some rando but he's got force sensitivity and could grow up to be a jedi someday, and he now believes in the rebellion because they came along and made a difference in his life. It doesn't matter if we never see him again because he highlights the themes of Finn and Rose helping out some random nobodies just because it's the right thing to do, and the movie shows us that as random nobodies they matter and their support for the heroes matters because the heroes are good people who want to do the right thing, and that (rather than their bloodlines) is what makes them important people worthy of being at the centre of this plot

and then along comes JJ Abrams and is like nah gently caress all that the only thing that matters is what the SKywalker family is doing and the way to win is just to kill the bad guy and blow up the ships, and also the entire galaxy decided to support our heroes offscreen for no reason even though literally in the last movie the entire galaxy abandoned our heroes in an identical moment

vyelkin fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jan 24, 2020

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Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

Cease to Hope posted:

so what's the other half hour

excruciating lightsaber battle cutscenes

Poopernickel fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jan 24, 2020

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



https://twitter.com/ditzkoff/status/1220806045431255040

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

vyelkin posted:

like poo poo, ok, in TLJ for example there's the entire Rose and Finn subplot that a lot of people hated (probably because it featured two actors of colour in leading roles but let's move past that for now), and people acted like that had nothing to do with the rest of the movie but it was actually a really important thematic moment where you see and learn important things for what Rian Johnson was going for in the movie

The theme was good and I liked it. Rose and Finn are both interesting characters.

Also the writers should have figured out a way to make the casino heist actually matter to the plot. Something other than "whoops, we tipped off the First Order by accident".

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.



i like TLJ but it would've benefited from communicating its themes in ways other than having characters explain those themes to each other

the casino bit is some of the worst of this

cams
Mar 28, 2003




i love tlj but i do think the casino planet stuff is a bit poorly paced

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


vyelkin posted:

like poo poo, ok, in TLJ for example there's the entire Rose and Finn subplot that a lot of people hated (probably because it featured two actors of colour in leading roles but let's move past that for now), and people acted like that had nothing to do with the rest of the movie but it was actually a really important thematic moment where you see and learn important things for what Rian Johnson was going for in the movie:

1) first of all the galaxy is huge and there's tons of stuff going on outside whatever the heroes are doing at the moment. Are they off fighting the bad guys? Cool, but also there's a whole community of arms dealers and gamblers who don't care about that conflict because they sell weapons to both sides and their lives won't change based on what the Skywalkers choose to eat for breakfast tomorrow. Whereas in ROS one random planet they go to C3PO is like "oh yeah there's this festival happening here that only happens once every hundred years and it just so happens to be going on while we're here because the universe revolves around us and our problems", in TLJ this subplot shows us that for this random arms dealer Monte Carlo planet, this is just another random day and the universe doesn't revolve around the heroes, they just happen to slip in and out of other people's lives.

2) the galaxy is a place full of inequality and injustice, both related to the main plot and unrelated to the main plot, and the good guys can make a difference through small heroic deeds even when they're actively failing and getting their asses kicked in the long run. This could set up a cool long-term storyline where even though the heroes are weaker than the bad guys, they can win over the galaxy as a whole by being legitimately good people who build support through acts of heroism, rather than by finding the McGuffin and killing the bad guy and then all evil is vanquished in the universe.

3) fuckin broom kid, like Rey, is just some rando but he's got force sensitivity and could grow up to be a jedi someday, and he now believes in the rebellion because they came along and made a difference in his life. It doesn't matter if we never see him again because he highlights the themes of Finn and Rose helping out some random nobodies just because it's the right thing to do, and the movie shows us that as random nobodies they matter and their support for the heroes matters because the heroes are good people who want to do the right thing, and that (rather than their bloodlines) is what makes them important people worthy of being at the centre of this plot

and then along comes JJ Abrams and is like nah gently caress all that the only thing that matters is what the SKywalker family is doing and the way to win is just to kill the bad guy and blow up the ships, and also the entire galaxy decided to support our heroes offscreen for no reason even though literally in the last movie the entire galaxy abandoned our heroes in an identical moment

This guy noticed the theme

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

I think it's disingenuous to say anyone who disliked the Finn/Rose subplot is racist; the subplot by its very existence messes up the spaceship chase because it relies on the existence of a shuttle which can go lightspeed and can't be detected by the bad guys but which the rebels who own it don't know about or refuse to use even though it could solve all their problems. Also the arms dealers selling to both sides thing is cool but it seems to be only there to explain DJ's cynicism and isn't a part of the story after he leaves. Also the Resistance kind of didn't make a difference in broom boy's life, he's still a miserable slave on a casino planet, the Resistance just passed through and caused some chaos on their way to get killed.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Poopernickel posted:

I agree with this post.

TLJ had much better ideas but it was a terrible movie. I haven't seen ROS so i'm not sure if it's good or better, but given my wiki reading I'm going to guess worse.

cams
Mar 28, 2003




nah it was a great movie and the third best star wars movie

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!


Cease to Hope posted:

i like TLJ but it would've benefited from communicating its themes in ways other than having characters explain those themes to each other

the casino bit is some of the worst of this

Whatís most baffling is the writer/director made the decision to have his characters tell each other about these themes, then ended his film asserting that Star Wars is going to be about plucky rebels against the galaxy-spanning evil empire, now and forever

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

Also, re ROS: it would have been a lot better if literally every lightsaber battle was replaced with the last 15 seconds of that particular battle.

It's like if I wanted to watch boring CGI fights I'd go see a Michael Bay movie.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.



Zoran posted:

then ended his film asserting that Star Wars is going to be about plucky rebels against the galaxy-spanning evil empire, now and forever

i don't really recall this

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Cease to Hope posted:

i don't really recall this

LUKE: I failed you, Ben. I'm sorry.

KYLO: I'm sure you are! The Resistance is dead, the war is over, and when I kill you I will have killed the last Jedi.

LUKE: Amazing: Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today, the war is just beginning, and I will not be the last Jedi.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Also more generally, the Resistance spends the entire movie loving up and dying, then at the end the Millennium Falcon and Luke Skywalker swoop in to save the day

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!


Cease to Hope posted:

i don't really recall this

He has the FO conquer the galaxy in a day, then Finn triumphantly declares himself Rebel scum, Luke announces the rebirth of the rebellion, and then Leia wraps it all up by looking at her twelve remaining soldiers and announcing they have everything they need. It's like saying this is it, baby: we're going to do Star Wars now

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.



i read that as that they're going to fight no matter what despite this defeat today, but sure, i get where you're coming from

cams
Mar 28, 2003




i remember when i watched the force awakens for the first time, when we get to stormtrooper finn happily mowing down his former comrades and constantly letting his anger consume him, i definitely thought there would be a really fun character journey for finn exploring his rage and the reality of war

but instead jj invented lando's long lost daughter for him to gently caress and little else of substance

cams
Mar 28, 2003




thank god finn ended up with a race-appropriate partner, i was worried there for a minute

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



I get the casino thing, I don't think it was executed well. Again I think that's a problem of having too many characters. They shouldn't have had both Poe and Finn, or they shoulda synthesized them into one character. Especially since the end result apparently was that neither of them do anything terribly important. John Boyega is fantastic in TFA, Oscar Isaacs is fantastic period, but having so many characters to service means the film flows awkwardly. Even I must concede that the timeline is kind of dumb (though I don't think Rey's training stuff was concurrent with the space chase, the Finn subplot absolutely was).

Broader on Finn/Rose, a lot of people who were mad about it were specifically mad about her saving Finn's life/ruining his heroic sacrifice, I don't think that was a bad call (though given TROS maybe it would've been for the best), I think the "we win by saving what we love" works very well within the themes of the other movies

cams posted:

thank god finn ended up with a race-appropriate partner, i was worried there for a minute

Hold up, they cast two black people in the same Star Wars movie?

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.



zoux posted:

Hold up, they cast two black people in the same Star Wars movie?

don't worry, she has fewer lines than jj abrams's actor friend

cams
Mar 28, 2003




in rise of skywalker, lando shows up completely randomly with no real justification cause jj is creatively bankrupt. later, they introduce a young black woman who pairs up with finn for the rest of the movie.

at the very end of the movie, this young woman has a scene with lando where she says something like "i am an abandoned orphan and i am sad that i never got to go on adventures" and lando goes "well i am a cool space travelling playboy, come on adventures with me!" and she smiles and they share a moment.

then, if you read some comic book or novel or npr podcast or something, you find out that that girl is ACTUALLY LANDO'S DAUGHTER.

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

cams posted:

i remember when i watched the force awakens for the first time, when we get to stormtrooper finn happily mowing down his former comrades and constantly letting his anger consume him, i definitely thought there would be a really fun character journey for finn exploring his rage and the reality of war

but instead jj invented lando's long lost daughter for him to gently caress and little else of substance

When asking "why isn't there more subtlety", remember that this is the movie with Exegol: the Planet Where We're All Evil Because Evil Is Good And Good Is Dumb

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Cease to Hope posted:

i read that as that they're going to fight no matter what despite this defeat today, but sure, i get where you're coming from

Yeah, and when Luke says "the rebellion is reborn" the point isn't that the Rebel Alliance was super cool but that the First Order wanted to stamp out the Resistance specifically to pre-empt any rebellion against them and they've failed. On a meta level it does kind of unfortunately suggest that classic Star Wars is super cool and we should be doing that from now on, and the way the movie is written ("you have no place in this story") also kind of invites that kind of meta reading, so it gets a bit muddled

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.



lando is a deadbeat dad and poe is a drug dealer, TROS rules

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.




anybody worrying about making sure the timing adds up is going to have a bad time with the new trilogy imo, TFA introduces weapons that can fire across a whole galaxy and obliterate planets instantly, and I think it also has the hyperdrive jumping them from system to system in like thirty seconds (rogue one definitely had this too) while the original trilogy had it taking days to get where the heroes wanted to go, TLJ has the super-speed shuttle, ROS has the planet full of star destroyers on the edge of the galaxy that no one knows how to get to until they follow someone who already knows the way, and yet lando and chewie go all the way to the centre of the galaxy to rally ten thousand allies and make it there like five minutes after the rest of the rebellion show up, it's all a completely jumbled mess

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



Cease to Hope posted:

lando is a deadbeat dad and poe is a drug dealer, TROS rules

Sleazbaggapoe

vyelkin posted:

anybody worrying about making sure the timing adds up is going to have a bad time with the new trilogy imo, TFA introduces weapons that can fire across a whole galaxy and obliterate planets instantly, and I think it also has the hyperdrive jumping them from system to system in like thirty seconds (rogue one definitely had this too) while the original trilogy had it taking days to get where the heroes wanted to go, TLJ has the super-speed shuttle, ROS has the planet full of star destroyers on the edge of the galaxy that no one knows how to get to until they follow someone who already knows the way, and yet lando and chewie go all the way to the centre of the galaxy to rally ten thousand allies and make it there like five minutes after the rest of the rebellion show up, it's all a completely jumbled mess

Oh for sure but rather than spend 100 hours online constructing and defending a coherent timeline I just acknowledge it doesn't add up but whatever

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013



Poopernickel posted:

When asking "why isn't there more subtlety", remember that this is the movie with Exegol: the Planet Where We're All Evil Because Evil Is Good And Good Is Dumb

oh yeah then why is it blue instead of red

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





vyelkin posted:

TFA introduces weapons that can fire across a whole galaxy and obliterate planets instantly

To be fair though it's easy to obliterate 5 planets at the same time when they're all in orbits closer to eachother than the moon is to the earth.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Poopernickel posted:

The theme was good and I liked it. Rose and Finn are both interesting characters.

Also the writers should have figured out a way to make the casino heist actually matter to the plot. Something other than "whoops, we tipped off the First Order by accident".

The casino scene matters to the plot if you pay attention. It's a big part of the character development of everyone involved. An important aspect of developing characters is "Can this character do something at the end of the movie that they couldn't before?"

Finn is the most prominent example. He begins the movie being considered a "Hero of the Resistance", but he only wants to find Rey and get the hell away from the war. He doesn't want to put his neck on the line to fight for what looks like a hopeless cause, so he gets caught running away. When he goes to Canto Bight, however, he sees exactly why he's fighting. The First Order only targets the downtrodden and weak like himself, while the rich get to live it up and make money off both sides of the war. It gets him angry, and it gets him to turn around and return to fight. But he also takes it a step too far and tries to pointlessly martyr himself on Crait, and it takes Rose physically stopping him to get him to snap out of it and preserve himself to fight longer.

Rose gets less development, but it helps establish her character more. She's able to fit into Canto Bight better than Finn and knows how to interact with the stable kid. It shows more of how she's a regular, empathetic person who happened to find a reason to fight instead of anyone special or magical.

And the whole crux of the issue is that it solidifies Poe Dameron's problems. The only reason they're at Canto Bight at all is because Poe is locked into his belief that he's an action hero. Even in the context of the universe, he thinks he's the dashing rogue who gives the finger to unreasonable authority figures and gets poo poo done, when in fact he's reckless and not that good at the bigger picture beyond blowing stuff up. When he (justifiably) gets punished for his actions causing huge losses and kept out of the loop due to his volatility and lower rank making him a risk, he tries to make his own plan to save everyone.

And because his plan was just made up on the spot and implemented in a few hours, it goes terribly wrong and results in his two inexperienced allies impulsively recruiting a mercenary slicer who immediately takes the option to betray them once he's promised a bigger check for it. It takes the shock of seeing his plan indirectly lead to the First Order getting tipped off and blowing up transports (and seeing that Holdo really did have a plan that he's now hosed up on an impulse) to realize the flaws of his ego and admit that he can't just solve everything by fighting and doing his own thing.

Zoran posted:

He has the FO conquer the galaxy in a day, then Finn triumphantly declares himself Rebel scum, Luke announces the rebirth of the rebellion, and then Leia wraps it all up by looking at her twelve remaining soldiers and announcing they have everything they need. It's like saying this is it, baby: we're going to do Star Wars now

Is it really any different from The Empire Strikes Back, though? That movie ends with serious losses and a cliffhanger, but also with a glimmer of hope in the end that they'll return to save the day in the final movie. It gives you just enough triumphant music and glances into the distance to tell you that they're going to make a plan and come back stronger. And that's exactly what we get in the next movie, complete with Luke showing up having learned his lessons and becoming a more mature character who still has a little development left before he can become the full hero that he is.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.




yeah, one of my favourite things about tlj is that everything the heroes do fails, they succeed at nothing important the entire movie and most of them die because of it, and yet the main characters grow and become better people and learn from their failures, it's way more compelling than them just beating up the bad guys on this planet and then beating up the bad guys on that planet and then beating up the final bad guys on that planet good guys win the end

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Poopernickel posted:

The theme was good and I liked it. Rose and Finn are both interesting characters.

Also the writers should have figured out a way to make the casino heist actually matter to the plot. Something other than "whoops, we tipped off the First Order by accident".

It massively matters to the plot, though. It is the plot for a good chunk of the film. And it directly sets up the battle on Crait.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.




and as a result of them growing from their mistakes, you actually do feel by the end of the movie that even though they've lost so much, the characters you're invested in have actually become stronger from this ordeal and still have a chance at victory, especially when combined with the other themes of victory meaning being heroes for the downtrodden instead of victory meaning blowing up the big spaceship

Saint Drogo
Dec 26, 2011



I feel more like I watched morons murder their friends with willful stupidity.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




cams posted:

in rise of skywalker, lando shows up completely randomly with no real justification cause jj is creatively bankrupt. later, they introduce a young black woman who pairs up with finn for the rest of the movie.
I'd have been happier if Lando were the only OT character to show up in the ST as anything but a ghost.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Luke was insanely loving blue in episode 9 btw. What was up with that? Make him less blue you insane freaks!

cams
Mar 28, 2003




Halloween Jack posted:

I'd have been happier if Lando were the only OT character to show up in the ST as anything but a ghost.
i wish luke were the only OT character in the new movies so he could just keep screaming 'BURN THE loving PAST' at all the kids

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



vyelkin posted:

anybody worrying about making sure the timing adds up is going to have a bad time with the new trilogy imo, TFA introduces weapons that can fire across a whole galaxy and obliterate planets instantly, and I think it also has the hyperdrive jumping them from system to system in like thirty seconds (rogue one definitely had this too) while the original trilogy had it taking days to get where the heroes wanted to go, TLJ has the super-speed shuttle, ROS has the planet full of star destroyers on the edge of the galaxy that no one knows how to get to until they follow someone who already knows the way, and yet lando and chewie go all the way to the centre of the galaxy to rally ten thousand allies and make it there like five minutes after the rest of the rebellion show up, it's all a completely jumbled mess

It's hard to get consistent hyperdrive speeds, but it's always been absurdly fast. Most of the canon evidence has the trip from Tatooine to Alderaan taking place in less than a day despite going from the Outer Rim to a core world (though the Falcon is canonically really fast by any ship's standards). Han's dialogue before jumping to hyperspace the first time talks a little about it, but the EU went into more detail about how you need the computer to pick routes that avoid planets, stars, etc. and your journey can either be a roughly straight line or stop-and-go directional changes every few hours. When Rose and Finn launch in their pod it's said that the fleet has 18 hours of fuel left, so their speed isn't really out of place compared to everything else unless Canto Bight is on the other side of the galaxy.

Lando getting every ship in the galaxy to show up at the end is cool but also really dumb because they made a big deal in the last movie about how nobody answered the Resistance's call for help. Turns out most of the galaxy doesn't actually want to show up in rickety freighters or vintage Z-95s to get blown up five seconds into a battle against the First Order.....unless Lando tells them to, at which point nobody even hesitates.

Ariong
Jun 25, 2012





2house2fly posted:

Luke was insanely loving blue in episode 9 btw. What was up with that? Make him less blue you insane freaks!

Yeah, that was a really glaring error even by ROSí standards. Canít believe they didnít catch that.

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cams
Mar 28, 2003




kylo ren should have just been luke's failed student instead of han and leia's kid, rey should have been a nobody, the overarching theme should have been "burn the past, build your own future."

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