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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




The sequels probably weren't schlocky enough.

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Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

It's also possible the judge in question just has bad taste. From the same opinion:

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





https://twitter.com/the_swsc/status/1301247791440834560?s=19

This solidifies my suspicion that Finns arc was derailed by studio mandate, over JJs objections

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

It seems plausible, but a simpler explanation is that he was enthusiastic about Star Wars exactly as long as it was his job to do so and no longer, but bears no ill will to his peers.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



https://twitter.com/Collider/status/1397561138263515136

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

Cease to Hope posted:

It seems plausible, but a simpler explanation is that he was enthusiastic about Star Wars exactly as long as it was his job to do so and no longer, but bears no ill will to his peers.

I kind of doubt he was told to be enthusiastic about it until the cast screening and then he could immediately be passive aggressive or noncommittal when asked about it

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis





BREAKING NEWS: Man Who Bails On Every Project Before Writing An Ending Realizes He Should Have Wrote An Ending

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


how much you guys want to bet he deliberately tries to make himself look kinda like steven spielberg

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

how much you guys want to bet he deliberately tries to make himself look kinda like steven spielberg

JJ cargo culting into accidental success? why I never!

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Checks out - Steven Spielberg is the only known film director with a beard and glasses.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??



Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

how much you guys want to bet he deliberately tries to make himself look kinda like steven spielberg

oh there's no betting about it

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



So I'm trying to import a discussion from another thread into this one.

Maxwell Lord posted:

What would "the movie itself acknowledging these characters could be wrong" even look like? We are presented with both their sides. We are shown their actions. If the movie plays sad music when Holdo dies that's at most saying "she's one of the good guys making a sacrifice", not "She Was Absolutely Right About Everything". Like a character can be heroic but also be wrong? That's a thing! It happens! And maybe Poe was wrong too! Maybe he wasn't! The point of the film is not "some people should be listened to and some should not," it's about people actually not knowing what to do because the situation has gotten desperate and complicated. Like, that's... just basic drama.

Like, you're attributing a lot of intent to things without clear evidence- why so sure that Holdo saying something nice about Poe is "saving face to make the audience feel better about liking them"? Why is Holdo saying something positive about Poe so strange to you that it needs an explanation?

Because maybe after a character holds a gun to your head, that's past the point where you be all buddy-buddy about them a couple minutes later. It feels like the characters themselves don't really care about what's going on in the movie, then it kinda makes the previous drama feel like treading water in a pointless plot that goes nowhere and eats up time because they were really trying to hit three hours of runtime.

Maxwell Lord posted:

Well no, this is the middle act. But the last scene of course is a child across the galaxy taking inspiration from Luke's sacrifice- a stand that was itself an illusion, but a hopeful one.

I was really cynical about that scene because the way the movie shows the child taking inspiration is in the form of playing with toys and merchandise, which kinda feels like a marketing thing.

I guess I also don't really make those connections because there's this series of scenes towards the end of the movie that are in sequence, but they're not actually connected in any real way. The last rebels make their one final plea into their last radio on the last base, and it's so run-down that the only readout is a little sine wave thing. And then the movie expresses as much and definitively as they could that either nobody heard, or worse, nobody cared. The whole room is silent and just stares as the line stays flat. Not even a blip. Then Luke shows up for entirely independent reasons, having definitely not heard their final plea because he has no radio, and does his whole scene which it's not even really clear that he's sacrificing himself until the camera cuts to him slumping down. I wonder if anybody else even really knows that he's dead. And then they all fly away in the space winnebago, and here's these kids who had no way of knowing what was happening in that battle and the kid the camera lingers on is probably more inspired by Finn and Rose from their actions earlier in the movie.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



And here's the spicy take from that thread that sparked this off about how The Last Jedi represents the 2016 primary.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Indeed. Though more that the aristocratic calm white woman spends the movie talking down to the hot-blooded bro (who happens to be Latino) to stop questioning her and support her unwaveringly because She Has A Plan and he should be respecting the chain of command (despite that never, ever being a thing with the Rebels or Resistance) and she would have saved them all if it weren't for all the minorities refusing to do what they're told. (Some suspect that it was supposed to be old white guy Han Solo she was calling out for his cowboy ways, but he's dead, which may be its own fitting analogy on top of all that)

It may seem contrived, but it's pretty much the only explanation I've heard that actually makes that whole plot make any sort of coherent sense.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

SlothfulCobra posted:

So I'm trying to import a discussion from another thread into this one.

I'm not sure that this is a great idea.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

SlothfulCobra posted:

So I'm trying to import a discussion from another thread into this one.
Because maybe after a character holds a gun to your head, that's past the point where you be all buddy-buddy about them a couple minutes later.

she’s an admiral. she’s surely used to insubordinate pricks and since it’s a rebellion and not a formal military she has to work with the tools at hand. can’t realistically discharge your best pilot and a solid tactician. giving Leia a genuine appraisal of his talent and potential isn’t really being “buddy buddy” at that point, she’s being a good commander

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





The mere existence of a mutiny is a large failure of leadership. So it's pretty natural to try and examine what she's doing in the light of "this is a poo poo admiral"

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




nine-gear crow posted:

Quick google search shows the judge in question is a massive chud and Trump appointee. Why am I not surprised?
I'm very surprised, because this all reads like the most dorky, upwardly-mobile liberal poo poo imaginable. How many references to Harry Potter are in it?

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Halloween Jack posted:

I'm very surprised, because this all reads like the most dorky, upwardly-mobile liberal poo poo imaginable. How many references to Harry Potter are in it?

I mean chud nerds also exist and they’re somehow even more insufferable than normal nerds.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


SlothfulCobra posted:

I was really cynical about that scene because the way the movie shows the child taking inspiration is in the form of playing with toys and merchandise, which kinda feels like a marketing thing.

...

And then they all fly away in the space winnebago, and here's these kids who had no way of knowing what was happening in that battle and the kid the camera lingers on is probably more inspired by Finn and Rose from their actions earlier in the movie.

the maximally cynical read on this is that in putting the Jedi to bed and making it so that ~anyone can be a wizard Force-user~, Disney is looking forward to eventually doing Marvel-style superhero movies, but in Star Wars

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

~anyone can be a wizard Force-user~

Marvel-style superhero movies

These are exact opposite concepts.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

SlothfulCobra posted:

These are exact opposite concepts.

You still have to be chosen by the Force or whatever, Space Janitor Bob can't do poo poo without midichlorians in his blood. In that sense it can be like the MCU, people still have to be special to matter.

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.


Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

the maximally cynical read on this is that in putting the Jedi to bed and making it so that ~anyone can be a wizard Force-user~, Disney is looking forward to eventually doing Marvel-style superhero movies, but in Star Wars

The Last Jedi espoused the radically egalitarian philosophy that anybody born with Force powers can use the Force. This was a radically diversion from previous films, where Jedi had to come from a specific noble bloodline. Except for Obi-Wan. Or Yoda. Or Qui-Gon. Or Palpatine. Or-

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




The implication in Episode 4 is that anybody with the right mystical training can become a Jedi, because the force is everywhere you just have to open your mind to it. This is largely consistent with the rest of 5 and 6, which though they introduce the idea that two of our major force users are related, that's still only 2 out 5 we see on screen. Every force user in 456 either know how to do it for a very long time and is something of a relic of a past age, or Luke, where his willingness to learn is clearly cast as an element of naivete and optimism. Luke and Vader both being force users isn't set up as a genetic lineage so much as an emotional heritage, part and parcel of the deeper father-son emotional conflict that is the core of 5 and 6.

Episodes 123 do a near 180 on this and present the nearly exact reverse idea, that force use requires having a large amount of a specific human-friendly symbiote that is basically genetically inherited. While this is not anywhere near "a specific lineage," it does imply that force-centric noble houses are a reasonable institution for a government to establish, which doesn't happen afaict but again it's all predictable enough that an up and comer rival to the republic would probably do it.

So since you have two nearly exactly opposite positions on force use within the two trilogies (really just episodes 1 and 4 establish a near total contradiction), in future work you've got a 1=0 type situation so you're pretty much free to make it whatever you want.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Tulip posted:

The implication in Episode 4 is that anybody with the right mystical training can become a Jedi, because the force is everywhere you just have to open your mind to it. This is largely consistent with the rest of 5 and 6, which though they introduce the idea that two of our major force users are related, that's still only 2 out 5 we see on screen. Every force user in 456 either know how to do it for a very long time and is something of a relic of a past age, or Luke, where his willingness to learn is clearly cast as an element of naivete and optimism. Luke and Vader both being force users isn't set up as a genetic lineage so much as an emotional heritage, part and parcel of the deeper father-son emotional conflict that is the core of 5 and 6.

I agree with this conclusion, but I think the inflection point is Empire Strike Back, not the difference between the trilogies. The "Actually, this character was tied to the main characters/Force in an unknown way" is the high that every Star Wars story has been chasing ever since, making it ever more incestuous. (Occasionally, literally so.)

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

in 123 they present the dogmatic Jedi version of The Force, they only accept people with a certain midichlorian count or whatever. but since another big point of the trilogy is that the Jedi are stupid and exceedingly bad at their job that doesn’t necessarily mean only high midichlorian people can use or become stronger in the force

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

indigi posted:

in 123 they present the dogmatic Jedi version of The Force, they only accept people with a certain midichlorian count or whatever. but since another big point of the trilogy is that the Jedi are stupid and exceedingly bad at their job that doesn’t necessarily mean only high midichlorian people can use or become stronger in the force

There seems to be a correlation between midichlorian count and power, at least judging by the way the Jedi go O__O at Anakin's count that is higher even than Yoda's. Of course, that's all part of establishing that the Jedi are dumb, so 123 absolutely are not pro institutional Force users. Many characters achieve a lot without even using the Force, most notably Jar Jar.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Grendels Dad posted:

Many characters achieve a lot without even using the Force, most notably Jar Jar.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.


For being such a clumsy guy, his surviving the battle against the droids at the end of TPM is nothing short of a miracle. And all without using the Force.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Grendels Dad posted:

For being such a clumsy guy, his surviving the battle against the droids at the end of TPM is nothing short of a miracle. And all without using the Force.

does this make mr bean the greatest jedi that has ever lived

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Cease to Hope posted:

does this make mr bean the greatest jedi that has ever lived

Mr Bean could very likely defeat most of the prequel Jedi, yeah.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





I love watching people read so much into the PT Jedi being set up as some kind of bumbling idiot circus like it's on purpose.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





Dexter Jettster actually says it out loud in the text!

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Am I supposed to believe a guy who can't even keep his pants up?

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





He doesn't want to!

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Then why does he keep pulling them UP?!

indigi
Jul 20, 2004
I'M REALALY MAD I DON'T GET TO SAY THE R-SLUR ANYMORE


Pillbug

CainFortea posted:

Am I supposed to believe a guy who can't even keep his pants up?

ok Dr Cosby

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Cease to Hope posted:

I agree with this conclusion, but I think the inflection point is Empire Strike Back, not the difference between the trilogies. The "Actually, this character was tied to the main characters/Force in an unknown way" is the high that every Star Wars story has been chasing ever since, making it ever more incestuous. (Occasionally, literally so.)

5 is an inflection point for establishing that the core of the fiction is about family, but not the diegetic mechanics of the force. The text is quite mum about that, and 5 in particular merely establishes that the one young person who takes the force seriously is the son of an existing force user. It's quite bare on this being a result of physics or genetics, and it's quite bare about the potential of other people to use the force. And as much hay as people make about the 'there is another' line, the writers of 5 at the time didn't know where they were planning to go with that. They just wanted to throw out a bone to the next writers in case they wanted to kill Luke or something.

I am partially looking at the EU, not because the EU is canon but because it gives some sense of what were considered viable reads of canon without as much hindsight as we have now. The EU involved an absolute kaleidoscope of force users, and while they settled on force sensitivity being something of an inborn trait, they didn't seem to settle on the how or why of it. Dorsk-81 is a clone and is force sensitive but none of his 80 preceding clone-bothers are, for example. Of course there is the case of Luuke and Luuuke, buuuuut also cloning in SW seems to sometimes mean "a genetically identical new person" and sometimes mean "a total copy including age and memory" so who the gently caress knows I just wanted an excuse to mention Luuuke.

Anyway point is that things were still vague enough even in 5 that there was plenty of room for the series to go in other directions. 1 establishing that you can blood test for an heritable genetic trait is a pretty strong choice even with everything so far established, which is part of why everybody loves to make fun of it so much.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Tulip posted:

I am partially looking at the EU, not because the EU is canon but because it gives some sense of what were considered viable reads of canon without as much hindsight as we have now. The EU involved an absolute kaleidoscope of force users, and while they settled on force sensitivity being something of an inborn trait, they didn't seem to settle on the how or why of it. Dorsk-81 is a clone and is force sensitive but none of his 80 preceding clone-bothers are, for example.

I look at the 90s EU and I see the exact opposite. The 90s EU was focused on the Skywalker dynasty to a ridiculous degree. This is just a broader thematic inheritance: it feels like every character is living under the shadow of a predecessor, either because they are the son or daughter of a movie character, or because they have their own parent cut from whole cloth to embrace or reject. Many, many times that parent turns out to be a Jedi that survived Vader's purges, or a member of some sort of heretofore-unmentioned Force-using society. Sure, there are characters like Dorsk-81, but the 90s EU Force-using protagonists who weren't movie characters tended to be people like Jacen and Jaina Solo, or occasionally silliness like Jedi Prince Ken.

The prequels certainly heightened that sort of narrative nepotism, that almost everyone was important because they inherited that importance, by making it explicitly genetic. But I think it came from the fact that people realized that Luke and Leia were the Chosen Ones because of who their father was. And that comes from Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Grendels Dad posted:

For being such a clumsy guy, his surviving the battle against the droids at the end of TPM is nothing short of a miracle. And all without using the Force.

The Force is basically plot armor, and thanks to the story's origins as a Hidden Fortress riff that made Lucas decide to follow the droids as POV characters, it favors low status characters. Peasants and slaves like Anakin, Jar Jar, and R2 get the most protection in Episode I, and Amidala's entire bodyguard system is designed around disguising herself as an invincible low status character. She even clues in later on when she realizes the only way to win the battle at the end of the movie is to make herself lower than the Gungans, who get their asses kicked immediately after becoming a high status army.

Anakin only starts to get into trouble once he starts being concerned about his own status, and Palpatine's entire M.O. is to become the highest status person in the galaxy. Even in the OT, Farmboy Luke is invulnerable, while status-climber wannabe Jedi Luke gets his hand chopped off. Yoda and Obi-Wan are able to hide out safely by abandoning their status, Leia is only able to defeat Jabba once she's enslaved to him, and the Ewoks are able to defeat the Empire's best troops thanks to their low status.

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Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Robot Style posted:

The Force is basically plot armor, and thanks to the story's origins as a Hidden Fortress riff that made Lucas decide to follow the droids as POV characters, it favors low status characters. Peasants and slaves like Anakin, Jar Jar, and R2 get the most protection in Episode I, and Amidala's entire bodyguard system is designed around disguising herself as an invincible low status character. She even clues in later on when she realizes the only way to win the battle at the end of the movie is to make herself lower than the Gungans, who get their asses kicked immediately after becoming a high status army.

Anakin only starts to get into trouble once he starts being concerned about his own status, and Palpatine's entire M.O. is to become the highest status person in the galaxy. Even in the OT, Farmboy Luke is invulnerable, while status-climber wannabe Jedi Luke gets his hand chopped off. Yoda and Obi-Wan are able to hide out safely by abandoning their status, Leia is only able to defeat Jabba once she's enslaved to him, and the Ewoks are able to defeat the Empire's best troops thanks to their low status.

Also, smarter-than-Jedi schlub Dexter Jettster and lowly dealer Elan Sleazebaggano surviving his encounter with Obi Wan as opposed to the good Doctor Evazan in A New Hope.

I like this

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