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Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

I JUST CAN NOT FUCKING SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT BUNNYBOYS!!!!!!!! hOLY SHIT TAILS!!! THATS WHAT I CALL POGGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FUCK


chitoryu12 posted:

The only real solution to this argument is "You're right, Poe should be brigged." Arguments about popularity are for disputes over decisions between relative equals, not for opsec in a tense environment where the person in charge has to make and execute a plan in an extremely limited amount of time. Telling Poe anything is about as risky as not telling him, because he's enough of a wild card with enough ego that he could do just about anything depending on whether he thinks you're right or wrong. The only real mistake Holdo made was allowing him any kind of freedom to do anything after he acted in such an insubordinate manner, though you could argue that was her acknowledgement of his "popularity". Perhaps she agreed with you and chose to avoid openly punishing him out of fear of mutiny.

And again, nobody else really had a problem working with her! Her evacuation almost went off perfectly fine because everyone else was given their orders and went "Yes ma'am" and got it ready. It only nearly failed because of one guy working actively against his commander.

Actually after thinking about it, you're right about tossing him in a cell. Other than Leia, who is in a coma, and Poe, I don't know if there were even any other high-ranking officers on the ship other than Holdo. She really probably should have thrown him in the brig and grabbed a few leaders and said "I did it because he's obviously lost his goddamn marbles and we all need to keep our heads on straight right now if we're going to make it out of this".

She didn't though, which is my whole argument, she wasn't an effective leader in the moment and poo poo got out of hand.

Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jan 25, 2020

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Flavius Aetass
Mar 30, 2011





Saint Drogo posted:

Holdo badly needed to be established in TFA or just merged with Leia for this drama to work. the audience actually has opinions & investment in Poe, Holdo has nothing but Laura Dern for us to care about.

yeah, introducing new characters all over the place where an OT character would work much better seriously hurt the ST

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

chitoryu12 posted:

You specifically said "elsewhere in the film."

i'll be more overt then. i don't think the message is strictly "don't trust the rich" there, but "don't trust power." it isn't just that the people on casinoworld got rich from selling to both sides, it's that both sides are buying from the same place, and that this is a secret they're keeping from everyone

Flavius Aetass posted:

yeah, introducing new characters all over the place where an OT character would work much better seriously hurt the ST

i get that this is a sarcastic shitpost but by TROS there are like a dozen "main" characters and it's just too much

even TLJ feels the need to stop every so often and check in on what's chewbacca's doing

Angepain
Jul 13, 2012

what keeps happening to my clothes


Can we go back to making fun of tros that was more fun than the dameron v holdo court martial enactment

What was he planning to do with his extra Snoke Babies anyway

Flavius Aetass
Mar 30, 2011





Cease to Hope posted:

i get that this is a sarcastic shitpost but by TROS there are like a dozen "main" characters and it's just too much

even TLJ feels the need to stop every so often and check in on what's chewbacca's doing

i wasn't being sarcastic. throughout the ST i pretty much only cared about the OT characters, kylo, and maybe rey

i couldn't even figure out why i was supposed to give a poo poo about poe or finn, much less 30 minor characters they think we're going to dress as for halloween

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Flavius Aetass posted:

i wasn't being sarcastic. throughout the ST i pretty much only cared about the OT characters, kylo, and maybe rey

i couldn't even figure out why i was supposed to give a poo poo about poe or finn, much less 30 minor characters they think we're going to dress as for halloween

either way it's too many goddamned main characters

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Flavius Aetass posted:

yeah, introducing new characters all over the place where an OT character would work much better seriously hurt the ST
Leia wouldn't work as a replacement for Holdo's character because Holdo's character is "inferior replacement for Leia". Or, if you like, "replacement for Leia who Poe doesn't know as well so he's like, why should I do what this broad says"

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Don't forget "not the assumed star of the next movie" and thus expendable.

TremorX
Jan 19, 2001

All Hail Big Hairy Mike



Chillgamesh posted:

Actually after thinking about it, you're right about tossing him in a cell. Other than Leia, who is in a coma, and Poe, I don't know if there were even any other high-ranking officers on the ship other than Holdo. She really probably should have thrown him in the brig and grabbed a few leaders and said "I did it because he's obviously lost his goddamn marbles and we all need to keep our heads on straight right now if we're going to make it out of this".

She didn't though, which is my whole argument, she wasn't an effective leader in the moment and poo poo got out of hand.

The moral of TLJ was learning from failure; every character makes a poor or compromised choice and pays for it.

Poe mutinies. Holdo brings a certain amount of this on herself. Rey leaves Luke too early and instead trusts Kylo Ren to do the right thing. Snoke overestimates Kylo’s loyalty. Kylo loses his temper and gets owned by a hologram. Luke is cynical and towards Rey, which is part of what pushed her to trust Kylo. Finn and Rose compromise and get a “replacement” hacker who sells them out - for a plan that was already essentially mutineering.

Poe learns from his bombing run mistake. Snoke gets killed for his arrogance. Luke learns from his mistake of turning his back on the galaxy. Rey realizes her mistake in trusting Ren and closes the door on him at the end. Yoda’s whole drat speech is about accepting and embracing failure and the importance of learning from it, to the extent of even teaching others about them. It’s a good and missing moral for a cynical, self-centered society that didn’t want to hear it.

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



Cease to Hope posted:

either way it's too many goddamned main characters

Just break it down to Chewie, a porg, and Palps.

Saint Drogo
Dec 26, 2011



TremorX posted:

The moral of TLJ was learning from failure; every character makes a poor or compromised choice and pays for it. It’s a good and missing moral for a cynical, self-centered society that didn’t want to hear it.
a moral can ring completely hollow for the audience without anyone disagreeing with it. imagine slapping that message in at the end of a Jason Vorhees movie, after you spent 2 hours yelling at characters making the dumbest decisions ever & waiting for the inevitable, and that's how TLJ's big theme comes off to about half of its viewers.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


The only thing that matters in a movie is noticing the theme and making a YouTube video or twitter thread about it

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Personally I don't much care about themes and like more when a story has writerly flourishes like foreshadowing and bookends and accurate but misleading dialogue and stuff. That scene in that one Doctor Who episode where a character has to only give one-word answers, that's the poo poo I like

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


I noticed the movies theme of “believe women” and “capitalism bad”! What a amazing film that sure to teach the peasant folk these valuable lessons.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


TLJ was simply too good, moral and correct for this fallen world. Much like the shameful betrayal of Hillary Clinton and her POC allies by the cynical and heartless bros.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Saint Drogo
Dec 26, 2011



A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

TLJ was simply too good, moral and correct for this fallen world. Much like the shameful betrayal of Hillary Clinton and her POC allies by the cynical and heartless bros.
I'd call this a lil much, but i'm p sure I saw someone unironically say not liking Rose and Finn's Insipid Adventure made you racist in the last few pages

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Put Laura dern as the main character in a good sci fi movie please

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

TLJ was simply too good, moral and correct for this fallen world. Much like the shameful betrayal of Hillary Clinton and her POC allies by the cynical and heartless bros.

go back to c-spam

they don't tolerate this weak bait either but at least you'll get probed for it

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




We do and they won't

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

Put Laura dern as the main character in a good sci fi movie please

Jurassic Park is like right there man.

Flavius Aetass
Mar 30, 2011





When the two ladies kissed at the end of TROS several people in my theater made angry noises

Ariong
Jun 25, 2012





Flavius Aetass posted:

When the two ladies kissed at the end of TROS several people in my theater made angry noises

We can at least hope they were angry at it for the same reason I was: because’s it’s such a transparent attempt to get representation cookie points in a way that will be very easy to cut out for the Russian/Chinese/etc. versions. Probably not though.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Flavius Aetass posted:

When the two ladies kissed at the end of TROS several people in my theater made angry noises

The guy next to me like SPASMED in his seat.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


nine-gear crow posted:

Jurassic Park is like right there man.

MORE

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

I love that Adam Driver was like, 34 or 33 when he filmed that scene and he looks like he's a petulant 19 year old.

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008


chitoryu12 posted:

The only real solution to this argument is "You're right, Poe should be brigged." Arguments about popularity are for disputes over decisions between relative equals, not for opsec in a tense environment where the person in charge has to make and execute a plan in an extremely limited amount of time. Telling Poe anything is about as risky as not telling him, because he's enough of a wild card with enough ego that he could do just about anything depending on whether he thinks you're right or wrong. The only real mistake Holdo made was allowing him any kind of freedom to do anything after he acted in such an insubordinate manner, though you could argue that was her acknowledgement of his "popularity". Perhaps she agreed with you and chose to avoid openly punishing him out of fear of mutiny.

And again, nobody else really had a problem working with her! Her evacuation almost went off perfectly fine because everyone else was given their orders and went "Yes ma'am" and got it ready. It only nearly failed because of one guy working actively against his commander.

There's a lot of back and forth about this for like four pages, and I can't go rewatch the movie right now to confirm this, but doesn't the FO spot Holdo's evacuation without any assistance from Benicio Del Toro? Like the core of her plan was that they are going to sneak off the ship in transports to this local base...and they got spotted instantly and destroyed. Does her evacuation actually go off perfectly fine? I think I can pretty easily nitpick this idea to pieces without having to reference anything to do with Finn, Rose, Rey, or Holdo.

This sounds like a bad plan, but I think the bigger point is just that I agree with a lot of people in this thread who are trying to say that TLJ just doesn't do a good enough job setting up any of these elements or themes. I can see the ideas...but I don't think they are effectively done at all. It doesn't carry them off, or just requires you to ignore the really poor storytelling to drag itself across the finish line. The movie really doesn't do the legwork to sell me on the ideas or themes that people are putting out to support it. Just focusing on how exactly the resistance chain of command functions or who should have the final say is narrowing in on a specific moment while missing the broader failure of TLJ to set up plausible drama between the characters.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!


They don’t know that Holdo's sending people off in cloaked transports until they get the intel from del Toro. Upon learning of the cloaking they run an “anti-cloaking scan” and immediately start shooting down the transports.

The existence of said anti-cloaking scan raises, uh, a lot of questions.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Regardless of where people end up on the whole Poe Holdo thing, I think the big take away here that we can all agree on is TROS is 2 hours of JJ Abrams pouting like a child.

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008


CainFortea posted:

Regardless of where people end up on the whole Poe Holdo thing, I think the big take away here that we can all agree on is TROS is 2 hours of JJ Abrams pouting like a child.

Agnostalgia
Dec 22, 2009


The only moral of the last jedi is that you can have a poorly trained neural network write a movie and a woodchipper edit it and it'll still make a billion dollars if its from a big enough franchise.

The moral of rise of skywalker is that if you do this too many times in a row you might only get $900 million.

Chuck Buried Treasure
Dec 27, 2010



Agnostalgia posted:

The only moral of the last jedi is that you can have a poorly trained neural network write a movie and a woodchipper edit it and it'll still make a billion dollars if its from a big enough franchise.

The moral of rise of skywalker is that if you do this too many times in a row you might only get $900 million.

Gulping Again
Mar 10, 2007
It's ham, Jonathan! Do you understand? Ham!





Agnostalgia posted:

The only moral of the last jedi is that you can have a poorly trained neural network write a movie and a woodchipper edit it and it'll still make a billion dollars if its from a big enough franchise.

The moral of rise of skywalker is that if you do this too many times in a row you might only get $900 million.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


I think rather than pout JJ just did a flippant laugh as he squeezed out another rancid turd onto a classic franchise confident in the objective fact that he will never be removed from Hollywood and will direct many more movies and tv shows that people call “slick”.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





chitoryu12 posted:

opsec in a tense environment

How does opsec benefit from not telling the crew what the plan is immediately?

Or, failing that, saying 'Leia entrusted me with a secret plan, I will reveal it in due time', and then telling the whole story to the crew later. After all, the plan hinges on telling literally everyone aboard the ship 'we are getting on the shuttles to fly away' - it's literally impossible to keep it away from any hypothetical spies. (And a spy reporting "we are gassing up the transports, but I don't know why" would be just as devastating as one who revealed the full plan, assuming that the First Order has a basic sense of object permanence - as an opsec measure it's utterly ineffective)

Now, we know from the first scene with Rose and Finn that morale aboard the ship is so bad that they have to station *armed guards* on the lifeboats. Troops are literally deserting left and right. Even if Holdo didn't have a plan, she should be talking about what a great secret plan she has and making people busy working on it.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Dude you are just supposed to notice the theme and move on, plot is for chuds

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


But the first order have windows.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



I just want to say that my favorite part of TROS is that JJ Abrams is willing to spend time on blowing up aN, entire planet for cheap emotional pathos he undoes, thus making the millions of people who did die on the planet have no weight for viewers.

This is closely followed by the fact that he had a super interesting concept with "You can literally create powerful force users in a vat and is Snoke any different than a droid" but instead spent time on having the Knights of Ren pose on a mountain like a music video for a B-list metal act.

After this is the fact Tattooine is never once said during the sequel trilogy so the ending is incomprehensible to anyone who didnt see the previous films, or they just assumed Jakku is Tattooine which is hard to argue against at this point.

Saint Drogo
Dec 26, 2011



JJ Abrams definitely forgot they were calling Tatooine 'Jakku' in the first one.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Another desert planet really was a dumb idea. Make it an ice planet, or even just a salt flats planet, the whole uninhabitable wasteland thing...okay, maybe not the best example since there's Hoth and the other salt flats planet but still.

Even video games generally have the same level cliche look different in different games

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