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Low Desert Punk
Jul 4, 2012

i have absolutely no fucking money


in episode 1 obi-wan knows yoda's midichlorian count off-hand. is that just common knowledge? is there gossip and dick measuring about midichlorian counts?

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Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Lt. Danger posted:

Han, Luke and Lando are all male Rebels who struggle internally to do the right thing and also fancy Princess Leia. they have little role in the plot but to induce tension by agonising over choices and competing for Leia's affections

at a sufficiently low resolution any film dissolves into broad archetypes and plot devices; no text can survive contact with a deliberate bad faith reading

A lot of people found Darth Maul underwhelming and barely there in 1999.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

oscar winning cinema enthusiast





Low Desert Punk posted:

in episode 1 obi-wan knows yoda's midichlorian count off-hand. is that just common knowledge? is there gossip and dick measuring about midichlorian counts?

Yoda is the Tom Cruise of the Jedi order, everyone's talking about his midichlorian level since that embarassing appearance on Space-Oprah.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!



Doctor Rope

Lt. Danger posted:

Han, Luke and Lando are all male Rebels who struggle internally to do the right thing and also fancy Princess Leia. they have little role in the plot but to induce tension by agonising over choices and competing for Leia's affections

at a sufficiently low resolution any film dissolves into broad archetypes and plot devices; no text can survive contact with a deliberate bad faith reading

You have to go a lot lower resolution to get Han, Luke and Lando are just competing for Leia's favor than you do to get Maul, Dooku and Grievous are glorified errand runners. This isn't even a close comparison so please don't try to pretend that it is.

To be clear, my problems with Maul, Dooku and Grievous are the same as my problem with a lot of secondary villains these days, it isn't just the prequels. At some point Hollywood just decided you didn't need to develop your secondary villains at all and it is terrible. Darth Maul is the first time I remember it, but it probably happened before.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



of course they're not comparable, it's a deliberate bad faith reading, that was the point of the post - you can destroy any film with wilful ignorance

these three aren't the only secondary antagonists in the films, of course - we have forgotten Nute Gunray, Jango Fett, Watto and, hrm, arguably Mace Windu in the third film; further, we have Tarkin, Boba, Lando, Jabba. are we maybe just getting caught up on the fact these characters are secondary to the main characters?

Cease to Hope posted:

A lot of people found Darth Maul underwhelming and barely there in 1999.

a lot of people are cunts

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


There's a lot in between the lines with Dooku, given that he's associated with Qui Gonn and is the proxy grandfather to the brothers obi wan and anakin. I almost read them as the same figure, Anakin's deadbeat trucker dad who showed up once, faked his death, left his son to be raised by the council of truckers, and then returned and cut his arm off during the clone wars. The Light Father and The Dark Father, but instead of being one guy like vader it's two! Jung!

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Lt. Danger posted:

of course they're not comparable, it's a deliberate bad faith reading, that was the point of the post - you can destroy any film with wilful ignorance

these three aren't the only secondary antagonists in the films, of course - we have forgotten Nute Gunray, Jango Fett, Watto and, hrm, arguably Mace Windu in the third film; further, we have Tarkin, Boba, Lando, Jabba. are we maybe just getting caught up on the fact these characters are secondary to the main characters?


a lot of people are cunts

Yeah. The latter Star Wars films have a lot of thin characters who exist only to move the plot along. I've been pretty consistent about pointing that out, along with how Lucas isn't very good at giving characters interesting internal lives.

In any case, if you think that everyone who disagrees with you is a "stinkyhole" who is engaging in a "deliberate bad faith reading," then there can never be a productive discussion with you. That's a problem with you, not literally everyone who disagrees with you.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016




Let's not refer to people as cunts over movie opinions

Edit - "Lot's of people think this" is a pretty lame argument though, ngl

Roth fucked around with this message at 19:28 on May 23, 2020

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

oscar winning cinema enthusiast





https://twitter.com/JohnBoyega/stat...946213688258560

Roth
Jul 9, 2016




The cast of the sequel trilogy deserved far better than what they got.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Better than millions of dollars?

Roth
Jul 9, 2016




Aetistivally, I mean.

Obviously I'm sure none of them will be worrying about money for the rest of their lives.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008



This was pretty good

Sharkie
Feb 4, 2013

Something looks fishy.






Roth posted:

The cast of the sequel trilogy deserved far better than what they got.

And of course also, a lot of them got treatment that was really disgusting. Regardless of their success or the quality of the movies, nobody deserves what some of them put up with.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



to be clear "a lot of people are cunts" was channeling Rory McCann, because it doesn't deserve anything better. "lots of people think" is a crap argument, about as crap as "we don't actually know Count Dooku is an aristocrat", like, what, "Count" is just his first name? "to Mr and Mrs Dooku, a son, 'Count'"?

but I wouldn't want to single any one Cease to Hope post out as deliberate bad faith - the drat thread's full of them!

Cease to Hope posted:

Yeah. The latter Star Wars films have a lot of thin characters who exist only to move the plot along. I've been pretty consistent about pointing that out, along with how Lucas isn't very good at giving characters interesting internal lives.

I am reliably informed that action-adventure movies do not require close reading - surely thin characters that drive the plot along are sufficient?

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Lt. Danger posted:

to be clear "a lot of people are cunts" was channeling Rory McCann, because it doesn't deserve anything better. "lots of people think" is a crap argument, about as crap as "we don't actually know Count Dooku is an aristocrat", like, what, "Count" is just his first name? "to Mr and Mrs Dooku, a son, 'Count'"?

but I wouldn't want to single any one Cease to Hope post out as deliberate bad faith - the drat thread's full of them!

But the fact that there are indeed many people who were disappointed by the thinness of the villains in the prequels is proof that it isn't some sort of put-on to trick you into engaging with bad-faith arguments. You don't have to agree with popular opinions but you do at least have to engage with them. You can't stick your head in the ground and complain everyone who disagrees with you is some sort of meanie out to get you.

In any event, action adventure movies don't require very much in the way of developing their characters to function! The fact that the prequels can't even meet that low standard makes them bad not only as space adventure flicks, but also even more incompatible with any other sort of reading.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



human beings are notoriously irrational animals that retrofit facts to support their previously-determined emotional conclusions; discourse requires rigour

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


The main villain of Revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. Dooku was the main villain of Attack of the Clones that just kinda got done dirty up top because the plot needed to make way for the next apprentice.

General Grievous is literally a sidequest in the movie. He doesn't need to be that complex, but it's not like the movie acts as if Grievous was the one robot man keeping the Separatists together, that was still Dooku. Grievous is just a general who had a lot of robots to order around. The movie does an alright job of showing Obi-Wan and Anakin as veterans who have been in a million scrapes together throughout the war, and Grievous is just the million and first.

Which it's not like it's particularly the worst thing in the world to have a character like that who is just a temporary narrative device, just it seemed like either he should have less screentime or more should be done to put some kind of weight on him.


Roth posted:

The cast of the sequel trilogy deserved far better than what they got.

The mass hate for some of them was insane and I still don't fully understand it.

I mean, hate the movie, don't pick out and hate the actors, that's crazy. The writer, director, and company laying out executive mandates are the people responsible for the thing if you really want to hate somebody for some reason.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

The main tension set up in Revenge of the Sith is "What will happen when the war ends?" and every character has some stake in that. Mace Windu wants to know what Palpatine will do. Palpatine wants to know what Mace Windu will do. The two of them use Anakin as a pawn against each other to figure that out. Obi-Wan is out there trying to end the war. Grievous is the person whose death will end the war.

The fight between Obi-Wan and Grievous is, for that reason, symbolic of all the Jedi spread across the galaxy fighting battle droids. Those two personify the entire war. Obi-Wan defeats Grievous with a blaster, though he's not comfortable with it; the Jedi defeat the battle droids using the clone army, though that's not really what they're meant to do. His death sets in motion everything that happens after the war.

Outside of that symbolic context, Grievous is a physical obstacle whose role is to pressure Obi-Wan into revealing more of his character, so that when he fights Anakin you know what he's all about.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Dexter Jettster is the Jabba analogue, but Obi Wan is his friend. What does THIs mean?

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

oscar winning cinema enthusiast





FunkyAl posted:

Dexter Jettster is the Jabba analogue, but Obi Wan is his friend. What does THIs mean?

I always thought of Dexter Jettster as an aging Han Solo type.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

SlothfulCobra posted:

General Grievous is literally a sidequest in the movie.

Yeah. That's the problem. The prequels spend a lot of time on these "sidequests".

I kept wanting to compare Maul, Dooku, and Grievous to video game bosses, but I figured that was gonna get people's backs up.

Lt. Danger posted:

human beings are notoriously irrational animals that retrofit facts to support their previously-determined emotional conclusions; discourse requires rigour

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is engaging in deliberate bad-faith reading. You cracked the case.

Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 23:54 on May 23, 2020

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure




This is better than the entire sequel trilogy, and of course it's my main man John Boyega who posts it.

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Roth posted:

The cast of the sequel trilogy deserved far better than what they got.

have any of them done anything interesting in the past few years apart from Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac

Roth
Jul 9, 2016




Filthy Hans posted:

have any of them done anything interesting in the past few years apart from Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac

John Boyega posted that tweet

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

John Boyega was in Pacific Rim 2, which, although it kinda stank, was at least meant to be a major release.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016




He ruled in Attack the Block, so I think he can move on to beyter things.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



John Boyega rules, period. He was the best new character, and he was done the dirtiest by Disney & Co.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.


Roth posted:

The cast of the sequel trilogy deserved far better than what they got.

Way to go Disney, you roped genuinely great young actors into doing 7-9 and they are all going to have fantastic careers while also telling everybody they ever work with "Don't ever do a Star Wars movie, ever; the studio doesn't know what it wants and will repeatedly pull the rug out from under you, and you'll have to deal with some Extremely Online motherfuckers for the rest of your goddamn life."

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

oscar winning cinema enthusiast







VERY WELL INDEED

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


JethroMcB posted:

Way to go Disney, you roped genuinely great young actors into doing 7-9 and they are all going to have fantastic careers while also telling everybody they ever work with "Don't ever do a Star Wars movie, ever; the studio doesn't know what it wants and will repeatedly pull the rug out from under you, and you'll have to deal with some Extremely Online motherfuckers for the rest of your goddamn life."

Guess what-

It doesn't matter if actors try to coordinate against the studio if the studio controls half the industry.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


SlothfulCobra posted:

Guess what-

It doesn't matter if actors try to coordinate against the studio if the studio controls half the industry.

What if everybody just did a really bad job acting. Everyone, all at once

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004



FunkyAl posted:

What if everybody just did a really bad job acting. Everyone, all at once

They tried that. It was called The Phantom Menace.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



CainFortea posted:

They tried that. It was called The Phantom Menace.

TPM and the Prequel Trilogy would have worked better if Natalie Portman and Keira Knightley had switched roles. Keira knows how to lean into camp based on Pirates, King Arthur, Domino Harvey, and countless other movies. She will give you 100% no matter the script. Natalie can't.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Bogus Adventure posted:

TPM and the Prequel Trilogy would have worked better if Natalie Portman and Keira Knightley had switched roles. Keira knows how to lean into camp based on Pirates, King Arthur, Domino Harvey, and countless other movies. She will give you 100% no matter the script. Natalie can't.

When one person's acting is bad, it's the actor's fault. When everyone's acting is bad, it's the director's fault.

Natalie Portman did the best she could under the circumstances, I think.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Cease to Hope posted:

When one person's acting is bad, it's the actor's fault. When everyone's acting is bad, it's the director's fault.

Natalie Portman did the best she could under the circumstances, I think.

Ewan's good, Liam's Good, Ian's Good, Watto's good.....

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

FunkyAl posted:

Ewan's good, Liam's Good, Ian's Good, Watto's good.....

McGregor is barely present in Phantom Menace, and McDarmid is fine at chewing on the scenery but has no chemistry whatsoever with Christensen in what is supposed to be a story about seducing him to evil.

Neeson and Secombe are just fine.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Did Lucas direct anything before the prequels?

I think that sometimes directors get overvalued as the singular creative force behind a movie, and so as a consequence of that, people who aren't good at or haven't taken the opportunity to learn the basic directorial work of wrangling actors and such try to take too much onto their plates at once in order to fulfill that vision of a singular creative voice touching all things (although admittedly on the other end of the scale, design by committee and corporate fiat can feel even worse).

Kinda one of those places where high-level creatives start needing more business skills like delegation and project management more than personal artistic skills.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

SlothfulCobra posted:

Did Lucas direct anything before the prequels?

THX1138, American Graffiti, and Star Wars. He also made a lot of the fact that the prequels were his own personal artistic vision, fulfilled for the first time through digital photography, too.

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FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Cease to Hope posted:

McGregor is barely present in Phantom Menace, and McDarmid is fine at chewing on the scenery but has no chemistry whatsoever with Christensen in what is supposed to be a story about seducing him to evil.

Neeson and Secombe are just fine.

Well theres also brian blessed and ahmed best and the tall guy whose name i forget who plays gunray. And I could keep going but won't, because these movies have a lot of lot of professional actors giving good performances. Not all great, but mostly craftspeople who take their job seriously, many of them hidden behind effects, possibly even a few who believe there are no small parts at all.

And, and I mean this, it's probably good that there is not chemistry between a creepy self-adopted grandpa president and his "leige," who he has known since he was ten.

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