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pram
Jun 10, 2001


wow really interesting. gas

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Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'


Progressive JPEG posted:

hippocratic license now has a v2.1 and has moved quite a bit from its “mit plus a clause or two” origins

it’s might actually be getting into the territory of not necessarily being a poison pill for commercial use, adding a bit about “Hague Rules on Business and Human Rights Arbitration” for arbitrating disagreements

one interesting thing, that doesn’t really relate to the ethics bits, is: “Licensee must cause any modified versions of the Software to carry prominent notices stating that Licensee changed the Software.”

You think anyone would commercially use that, when it reduces their right to force you into regular corporate arbitration?

power botton
Nov 2, 2011



if code cant be used for human rights violations theres no place in the market for it. nice try serial "entrepreneurs"

pram
Jun 10, 2001


ok stallman

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003



Captain Foo posted:

You think anyone would commercially use that, when it reduces their right to force you into regular corporate arbitration?

to be clear i am still in favor of commercial poison pills

if you want to use this hobby project commercially then sure, email me and lets figure out a price

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


Progressive JPEG posted:

to be clear i am still in favor of commercial poison pills

if you want to use this hobby project commercially then sure, email me and lets figure out a price

and I'm still in favor of revocable licenses where if you suddenly turn into a shithead then i get to take my ball and go home.

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005




rotor posted:

and I'm still in favor of revocable licenses where if you suddenly turn into a shithead then i get to take my ball and go home.

why? you don’t want the competition?

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


fart simpson posted:

why? you don’t want the competition?

:monocle:

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


Is the difference that 'ol Werner had in-demand and transferable skills?

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003



the author of a software law blog that i've been following announced a couple template licenses:

quote:

Normally Open says “Everything not prohibited is permitted.” You get to fill in what’s prohibited.
Normally Closed says “Everything not permitted is prohibited.” You get to fill in what’s permitted.

obv more interested in the Normally Closed one

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003



mozilla is one of the few places that i think of as actually doing good work so it's a shame that they're apparently unraveling

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006


Nap Ghost

mozilla and the rest of netscape's offspring all deserve to die for loving up the web with javascript

qirex
Feb 15, 2001



Shaggar posted:

mozilla and the rest of netscape's offspring all deserve to die for loving up the web with javascript

counterpoint: competing scripting languages of the time had read-write access to the users' hard drive

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


yeah like say what you want about js but circa 2000 every other alternative was god-awful

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy


Slippery Tilde

"Let me die with the Phillistines!" *deletes left-pad.js*


e: looks like i already made that joke but wth, software development is for paying rent not making the world better

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 15, 2020

qirex
Feb 15, 2001



I remember in like 1999 there was a webpage that would eject cd drives on windows machines

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003



qirex posted:

I remember in like 1999 there was a webpage that would eject cd drives on windows machines

in aol chat you could type a command that would make everyone's a drive look for a disk and prompt a message if one wasn't inserted. made a bonus head motor noise

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003



and actually there was some something awful parody site thing that would eject the cd

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


akadajet posted:

and actually there was some something awful parody site thing that would eject the cd

if i had a dollar for every programmer in the early 00s who devised a zany use for eject i'd be marginally wealthier

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

"I believe I did, Bob."



Mozilla needs to survive and keep working on FF if only to enable some part of the god drat forsaken web endeavour not to be a through and through for-profit—led ad project for giant billionaire sacks of poo poo

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


MononcQc posted:

Mozilla needs to survive and keep working on FF if only to enable some part of the god drat forsaken web endeavour not to be a through and through for-profit—led ad project for giant billionaire sacks of poo poo

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006


Nap Ghost

qirex posted:

counterpoint: competing scripting languages of the time had read-write access to the users' hard drive

counterpoint: the web didnt need a scripting language

pram
Jun 10, 2001


MononcQc posted:

Mozilla needs to survive and keep working on FF if only to enable some part of the god drat forsaken web endeavour not to be a through and through for-profit—led ad project for giant billionaire sacks of poo poo

apple already benevolently makes safari

NecroBob
Jul 29, 2003


Shaggar posted:

counterpoint: the web didnt need a scripting language

Yes but how else will graphic/web designers justify their existence if they can't make your branding statement fly out from your monitor as you scroll down the screen and reiterate your core values as catchy animated bullet points

President Beep
Apr 29, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)


“Ha, not-C, Schmazi" says Wernher von Braun.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001



NecroBob posted:

Yes but how else will graphic/web designers justify their existence if they can't make your branding statement fly out from your monitor as you scroll down the screen and reiterate your core values as catchy animated bullet points

love that people blame designers for this and not coked out marketing executives

NecroBob
Jul 29, 2003


qirex posted:

love that people blame designers for this and not coked out marketing executives

¿Por qué no los dos?

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

"I believe I did, Bob."



before the web designers were fine doing print media and just having nothing move or flash for no reasons, and being able to do poo poo like use any orientation for thing and place them however the gently caress they want

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Progressive JPEG posted:

the author of a software law blog that i've been following announced a couple template licenses

quote:


Normally Open
says “Everything not prohibited is permitted.” You get to fill in what’s prohibited.

Normally Closed
says “Everything not permitted is prohibited.” You get to fill in what’s permitted.
obv more interested in the Normally Closed one

partially a good post, partially time to bump this thread. software licensing may be a pretty small thing all things considered, but it is a clearly yospos place to start from. and the times of finding some ease in the vagaries of the term "open source" are long over.

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


So this has been rolling around in my head for a while and I finally wrote it down

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h__zP17eMoSXntHq6Jo7nKxRB8DoCOcVZ794Qd4LEA4/edit

Please read my manifesto about how Open Source is Bad, Actually, and How We Should Stop Letting Evil People Use Our Work

Storysmith
Dec 31, 2006



rotor posted:

So this has been rolling around in my head for a while and I finally wrote it down

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h__zP17eMoSXntHq6Jo7nKxRB8DoCOcVZ794Qd4LEA4/edit

Please read my manifesto about how Open Source is Bad, Actually, and How We Should Stop Letting Evil People Use Our Work

i was gonna suggest guns, but your way is fine too

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


there are many paths to righteousness

MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000



The Mother Theresa of software, :lol:

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


rotor posted:

So this has been rolling around in my head for a while and I finally wrote it down

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h__zP17eMoSXntHq6Jo7nKxRB8DoCOcVZ794Qd4LEA4/edit

Please read my manifesto about how Open Source is Bad, Actually, and How We Should Stop Letting Evil People Use Our Work

by a truly bizarre coincidence just yesterday i read this 2019 essay and you should read it too, the author is thinking the same things as you but coming at it from a different angle

https://don.goodman-wilson.com/posts/open-source-is-broken/

President Beep
Apr 29, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)


rotor posted:

there are many paths to righteousness

so you gonna pick one or what!

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

"I believe I did, Bob."



it is deeply troubling that in so far as protecting rights and fostering communities rather than straight up exploitative behaviour, Richard Stallman has done a better job through GPL than most of the people who followed.

I also read the text Bob Howard linked. It makes good points about the bad incentives and maintenance of the status quo, and on the focus on users rather than authors. Bringing up the bits with OSI going "yeah you can't do poo poo about evil people", reducing the autonomy of maintainers, and so on. It doesn't seem to clash with Rotor's manifesto though, which tries to provide a means to that change.

I.e. the use of a trust to manage license grants rather than just "go hog wild you beautiful OSS user" seems to be a complete attempt at changing the dynamics from one where the user is empowered to everything into one that brings back a better balance of author-to-user. It is true that the people who are not part of the agreement can still suffer from it -- people who get racially profiled by ML poo poo for example. The status quo entrusts the users of the library with the moral responsibility of not harming others. Rotor's manifesto expands this responsibility to the author and the users (both have to agree for the code to remain usable).

Rotor's manifesto appears to be a net benefit from the moral perspective.

The interesting bit I was playing with is flipping towards an utilitarian viewpoint: if such a trust was everywhere for all OSS, would we have had easy turnkey solutions such as nginx for web front-ends or redis for backends? Would this framework be possible to leverage as a way to keep others down if you disagree with them (i.e. deny code use to human rights activists and specifically create a trust for evil?)

I guess the toy argument is moot for a few reasons:
  • it assumes the status quo is desirable and that preventing it from happening would be bad
  • it assumes that trusts are transparent and only a legal entity that do not play the role of arbitration
  • it pre-supposes that it is one or the other working rather than both at the same time; adding such trusts wouldn't make other licenses disappear and you can't divorce a solution from its ecosystem that easily.

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


ok, now that we've established that any use of open source is immoral, how do we punish people for perpetuating systems of inequality by using it?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Clark Nova
Jul 17, 2004



MrMoo posted:

The Mother Theresa of software, :lol:

in all honesty any project I’ve been involved with has purified the souls of its users through unnecessary suffering

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003



the law blog that I keep repeatedly linking had a post about "cross-license collaboratives", an agreement between contributors for deciding how project is run:

quote:

Cross-license collaboratives start with a kind of contributor license agreement, but instead of giving special license powers to a single company or developer, contributors give special license powers to each other. Those special powers come with a catch: they can only be used on behalf of the project as a whole, supported by a vote of fellow contributors.

the post mainly talks about this being a way to structure payments to project members and allow changing the user license over time, but it also hints at this being a way to block access entirely:

quote:

In some cases, collaboratives may choose not to apply any public license to their work at all. They may offer licenses only for sale, or give a license that only applies to contributors. The project then becomes a kind of club good, free for contributors but paid for anyone else.

the author also set up a website with an example agreement

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CRIP EATIN BREAD
Jun 24, 2002

Hey stop worrying bout my acting bitch, and worry about your WACK ass music. In the mean time... Eat a hot bowl of Dicks! Ice T





Soiled Meat

Shaggar posted:

mozilla and the rest of netscape's offspring all deserve to die for loving up the web with javascript

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