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Gentle Autist
Jun 4, 2003



please read this site for great enjoyment http://www.jimjag.com/



quote:

Jim is a well known and acknowledged expert and visionary in Open Source and IT, an accomplished coder (in numerous languages) and frequent presenter/interviewee/consultant on all things Web and Cloud related. He is best known as one of the developers and co-founders of the Apache Software Foundation and has served as President and Chairman. He also served on the board, as well as President, for the Outercurve Foundation and was a director for the Open Source Initiative (OSI). Jim works for ConsenSys as their Head of Open Source, after stints at Capital One, Red Hat, VMware, and others. Check out his Wikipedia Page.

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post hole digger
Mar 21, 2011


Gentle Autist posted:

please read this site for great enjoyment http://www.jimjag.com/



labor camp.

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


but, and this should be emphasized, he's not in it for the money.

Fortaleza
Feb 21, 2008

Feel It


jim jag dot com


Reminds me of how when I first got Cassie when she was two months old and I hadn’t settled on a name yet I just called her “jibb-jabb”

Fortaleza
Feb 21, 2008

Feel It


No bite, jibb-jabb!!


Anyway gently caress that Jim dude

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

ConsenSys; your digital ecosphere for recording and validating affirmative consent.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'


~Coxy posted:

ConsenSys; your digital ecosphere for recording and validating affirmative consent.

yikes

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003



lol if you think getting a Wikipedia page is an accomplishment

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


Fortaleza posted:

Anyway gently caress that Jim dude

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


If you're a maintainer of an open source project, just stop.

If you want people to stop taking advantage of you, the first step is to stop helping them to take advantage of you.

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


if your code has a security hole that affects every single computer on earth and you're somehow not being paid any real amount of money to maintain that code, you're a loving chump and you deserve to be a poor laborer in the code mines forever.

psiox
Oct 15, 2001

Babylon 5 Street Team

what if we put consent on the blockchain

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

psiox posted:

what if we put consent on the blockchain

Richard stallman would support that if it was age of consent

Wild EEPROM
Jul 29, 2011


oh, my, god. Becky, look at her bitrate.


by the time the transaction goes thru she will be legal

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003



psiox posted:

what if we put consent on the blockchain

I think people have tried this.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


Anyone remember when "left tab" or w/e got deleted from node and they ignored the author's license and wishes for several days because it broke the entire ecosystem? If the license he used allowed it, he should have sued for every download after he revoked authority to distribute. Destroying javascript is the lords work.

rotor posted:

If you're a maintainer of an open source project, just stop.

If you want people to stop taking advantage of you, the first step is to stop helping them to take advantage of you.

People poo poo on the GPL, but people who accept the license and use the code have to pay for it in a way that might be more important to you than the money you could make off of it.

I'm never going to make much or any money off an endian-neutral C re-implementation of Microsoft's binary floating point format. Including the source zipped in your distribution is minimal, and I get paid if it gets used anywhere else, because that code becomes GPL.

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.


SYSV Fanfic posted:

Including the source zipped in your distribution is minimal, and I get paid if it gets used anywhere else, because that code becomes GPL.

username post combo? also I don’t think this makes sense, hth

susan b buffering
Nov 14, 2016



SYSV Fanfic posted:

Anyone remember when "left tab" or w/e got deleted from node and they ignored the author's license and wishes for several days because it broke the entire ecosystem? If the license he used allowed it, he should have sued for every download after he revoked authority to distribute. Destroying javascript is the lords work.

left pad was licensed under MIT so he wouldn't have been able to do that

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


prisoner of waffles posted:

username post combo? also I don’t think this makes sense, hth

Anyone who uses my GPLed code pays by having to follow the GPL. If I consider other people's improvements and enhancements to my code fair payment, then by complying with the GPL they've paid me.

If it's important enough to me, I can pay the $250 to initiate a pro-se federal lawsuit and use the references on the software freedom conservancy to aid me.

susan b buffering posted:

left pad was licensed under MIT so he wouldn't have been able to do that

dang.

edit: The filing fee is now $400, but po folks can have the fees waived.

SYSV Fanfic fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Dec 24, 2021

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


The beauty of pro-se is that if you have time to show up in court, and the other party has to pay a lawyer you've already won.

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


SYSV Fanfic posted:

People poo poo on the GPL, but people who accept the license and use the code have to pay for it in a way that might be more important to you than the money you could make off of it.

I'm never going to make much or any money off an endian-neutral C re-implementation of Microsoft's binary floating point format. Including the source zipped in your distribution is minimal, and I get paid if it gets used anywhere else, because that code becomes GPL.

I think that if for whatever reason you absolutely MUST release open source software(???), releasing it under the GPL3 license is the absolute minimum ethically acceptable thing to do, if only because its typically a poison pill for corporations of any size.

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



the gpl3 is made entirely obsolete by the agpl3.

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


Cybernetic Vermin posted:

the gpl3 is made entirely obsolete by the agpl3.

whatever, you take my meaning. The important part is that the license be strong enough to make large corporations go "ew no we'll write our own"

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

Official Carrier
of the Neil Bush Torch

 
 
 
 
teh butts


CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:

how can the slf4j author sleep at night

this aged well

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.


SYSV Fanfic posted:

Anyone who uses my GPLed code pays by having to follow the GPL. If I consider other people's improvements and enhancements to my code fair payment, then by complying with the GPL they've paid me.

If it's important enough to me, I can pay the $250 to initiate a pro-se federal lawsuit and use the references on the software freedom conservancy to aid me.

dang.

edit: The filing fee is now $400, but po folks can have the fees waived.

SYSV Fanfic posted:

The beauty of pro-se is that if you have time to show up in court, and the other party has to pay a lawyer you've already won.
the argument is that GPLed code pays for itself and I wonder if you’ve ever benefited in this way.

you might be more serious if you were talking about affero but lots of code is used by businesses without being redistributed.

“GPLed code pays for itself because if somehow I find a company in breach, I can waste my time and money and unless they (who probably have both much more time and money than me) waste their time and money, I might win some money- OR they could come back into compliance by releasing their (largely useless to anyone) code OR switching to something similar under a more permissive license OR choosing to reimplement the subset of functionality they need.”

if that pays off as a hypothetical cost-benefit analysis for you, go nuts. in my mind it still looks like donating effort to the benefit of companies, primarily large ones.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


prisoner of waffles posted:

if that pays off as a hypothetical cost-benefit analysis for you, go nuts. in my mind it still looks like donating effort to the benefit of companies, primarily large ones.

What software are you talking about? My contributions to KDE have gotten me an incredible desktop environment I love using. My contributions to dosbox early on indirectly caused several very difficult edge-case problems to be worked out by CD-Projekt Red employees involving audio.

I have yet to start from scratch a project - it's very hard to come up with software that someone else hasn't already started that can just be extended. But I have contributed and the result was software I preferred using for my hobbies.

Most GPLed software could never be the product of a one or two person indie software dev shop. By the time the project gets incorporated into something else, it was something that wasn't going to exist any other way than "open sores". It was clear in the 90s that any functionality that could be implemented by one guy and was worth buying was going to be duplicated by a larger company and incorporated into another product as a bullet point. The for-profit software industry is notoriously anti-competitive/monopolistic.

For a long time the only minimally palatable alternative to most software monopolies were largely GPLed, until corporations figured out they could trick people into doing free work they could use absolutely gratis with a different license.

GPL lawsuits for the most part do not involve huge companies. Like rotor said it's a poison pill.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


Like, I just kicked off another 3d print on my heavily modified tevo tarantula running Marlin firmware (gpl), sliced with cura (derived from slic3r, gpl). As an engineer/hobbyist I've derived intense benefit from GPL software that a billion dollar company will never have interest in.

edit: like most GPL software it looks like hell, but it works nearly as well as a $2k printer (also based on marlin and cura) from the same period.



GPL.jpg.

SYSV Fanfic fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Dec 24, 2021

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

"I believe I did, Bob."



the biggest value of GPL code is that it endlessly pisses off wanna be startups that just want to use free poo poo without having to talk to lawyers

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


MononcQc posted:

the biggest value of GPL code is that it endlessly pisses off wanna be startups that just want to use free poo poo without having to talk to lawyers

Haha. Most of the "don't gpl your code" poo poo comes from people that dream of creating a multibillion dollar startup off their ability to glue pip/node packages and code snippets together.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


Kinda unrelated but commercial hackathons were the best. "Help us overcome a crippling design challenge in 48 hours and win a macbook pro!"

Wild EEPROM
Jul 29, 2011


oh, my, god. Becky, look at her bitrate.


work mandated hackathons on friday afternoons

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


If crypto has done anything for the tech world, it's concentrating the worst of the assholes in one bubble and painting the rest in nature's bright colors.

rjmccall
Sep 7, 2007

no worries friend

Fun Shoe

i figure we have another two or three years before it's common wisdom that everything about blockchain is a scam (which is not to say that there won't still be true believers). at that point there are going to be an awful lot of programmers with weird gaps on their resumes from 2019–2022

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme



rjmccall posted:

i figure we have another two or three years before it's common wisdom that everything about blockchain is a scam (which is not to say that there won't still be true believers). at that point there are going to be an awful lot of programmers with weird gaps on their resumes from 2019–2022

i wish that were true but yospos has been saying that for nearly a decade now and well

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.



maybe I completely misinterpreted the sense in which you meant your posts. by open source “paying” you, I was assuming that you meant a direct economic interaction or some sort of second or third hand economic interaction mediated by reputation/contribution

instead of the direct benefits of contributing to software that you and others want to exist

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



which rather misses the theme of the thread, which is not "don't write software" (that's the rest of yospos), but that more effort should be expended trying to control where and how such software gets used. the agpl3 is a start, but as was demonstrated by the gpl3 evolving into being perfectly acceptable for cloud services companies you can't just assume that you have a sufficiently poisonous pill already.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


Cybernetic Vermin posted:

which rather misses the theme of the thread, which is not "don't write software" (that's the rest of yospos), but that more effort should be expended trying to control where and how such software gets used. the agpl3 is a start, but as was demonstrated by the gpl3 evolving into being perfectly acceptable for cloud services companies you can't just assume that you have a sufficiently poisonous pill already.

Yeah sorrry sometimes poo poo goes over my head b;c itt's hard to keep context together when your jumping thread to thread.

I was specifically responding to rotor's hardline stance that writing/maintaining free software automatically means personal exploitation. Trying to control how the software gets used (as opposed to getting paid) means taking responsibility for something that's largely beyond your control.

SaaS has never bothered me. Even if they're deriving a lot of economic benefit. They're end users using the code in a way that no one other than a cloud provider can - and "freedom" matters mostly to programmers not users. If you really want end users to contribute their code upstream just break the internal APIs constantly b/c it breaks their patch sets. When they ask you to not do that laugh in their face.

The people being exploited are the ones that were deluded into thinking they could run a business by giving poo poo away for free. Deliberately, by the first movers who wanted more software they could bundle into the products they were selling (redhat, here's looking at you) b/c of their trademarks.

SYSV Fanfic fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Dec 25, 2021

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


As far as who would maintain a java logging library or openssl - people like to feel important and useful. I think it was rotor who was wondering why anyone would maintain deprecated features on behalf of major corporations - the corporations aren't the ones that approach people. Employees who are flesh and blood humans do. Most people have not yet cultivated the attitude that anyone who works for a corporation has voluntarily installed a brain implant to where they can be remote controlled by psychopaths.

also a lot of the anti copyleft ppl are taking a play from the anti-union playbook - "The gpl was for a different time and we've moved past that". https://martin.kleppmann.com/2021/04/14/goodbye-gpl.html

SYSV Fanfic fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Dec 25, 2021

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



SYSV Fanfic posted:

also a lot of the anti copyleft ppl are taking a play from the anti-union playbook - "The gpl was for a different time and we've moved past that". https://martin.kleppmann.com/2021/04/14/goodbye-gpl.html

one of those articles that have a lot of basic things right (e.g. how the big cloud platforms have rendered a lot of past license activism moot), but fails to then inspect his own motivations and moral position, instead just obliquely referring to "software freedoms" and going "whelp, might as well keep coding away and releasing under mit licenses v:shobon:v".

SYSV Fanfic posted:

As far as who would maintain a java logging library or openssl - people like to feel important and useful. I think it was rotor who was wondering why anyone would maintain deprecated features on behalf of major corporations - the corporations aren't the ones that approach people. Employees who are flesh and blood humans do. Most people have not yet cultivated the attitude that anyone who works for a corporation has voluntarily installed a brain implant to where they can be remote controlled by psychopaths.

it is indeed not that those people are getting mind-controlled by corporations into doing these things, they are doing it out of their own free will, only it is a bad thing they are doing and they should stop.

Cybernetic Vermin fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Dec 25, 2021

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ultravoices
May 10, 2004

You are about to embark on a great journey. Are you ready, my friend?


working for exposure is good actually.

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