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We've seen them annex planets with no intelligent life, but I think the central question here is whether enclaves count as annexation, and something like how far from the surface of a planet should resources be considered the property of the civilization of that planet? Which I don't know if the Federation has ever even been shown to cohabitate in solar systems with civilizations that they're not allowed to mess with. It's also an open question what happens when a world within their "borders" that maybe they've built colonies in the solar systems around it passes the prime directive threshold, but it's not like the Federation hasn't been shown perfectly willing to evict its citizenry from their homes. There have also been a number of non-federation warp-capable civilizations shown just existing just doing their own thing, and it seems like the Federation only establishes big DMZ borders with enemies who they have fought wars with and probably will continue to pose a threat. It's not like contiguous borders are especially meaningful in the massive void of space. Kesper North posted:Not true. Example: Organia, which the Federation contacted because the Klingons were considering annexing it, so the Federation moved in to put the Organians under its protection. The Federation does the same with other worlds within its sphere - remember warp drive starships patrol actual volumes of space, they don't just leap about. Federation expansion has swallowed up lots of primitive worlds that have no idea they are "inside" the Federation's boundaries, but by forbidding other cultures from contacting prewarp civilizations within its sphere, it has annexed that territory (and defends its claims based on the principles of annexation, because that is the framework the Klingons among others insist on working in). That was a cross between an (unwanted) offer to protect the Organians from Klingon violence and the fact that a war just broke out so of course Kirk and pals were gonna go gently caress up that Klingon base. You could count that as an exception to the Prime Directive for the sake of helping the pre-warp people. Halloween Jack posted:Actually, you're the one who doesn't know what annexation means. That is what happened to Bajor. You don't watch Star Trek. And your haircut is stupid. Establishing a presence on an offworld base for protection when asked to by the planet isn't annexation.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:52
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bajorans were pre-warp until the Cardassians rolled up they just had solar sail driven STL starships, and even those just HAPPENED to get yeeted at cardassia by a gravitational anomaly being pre-warp necessarily doesn't mean being pre-space travel, it just really demands committment and/or force majeure as in bajor's case arguably though the prime directive would never have applied to bajor because they got wormhole aliens all up in their business otoh at other times the prime directive seems to mean "this culture told us to back off, so now we have to avoid them"
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Mar 12, 2020 00:54
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I get the feeling that for some folks, if the federation knows you exist you've been annexed.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:54
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The prime directive doesn't mean "ignore all aliens". It means don't get involved in their internal politics and culture. For a pre-warp society, that means everyone because everyone is internal. The Bajorans are def not pre-warp by that metric after 40 years of cardassian annexation. Edit: To be more precise it's about not swaggering in with higher technology and interfering with other people's internal poo poo. Which is why loving with people who are more technological advanced is okay.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:55
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Kesper North posted:bajorans were pre-warp until the Cardassians rolled up The solar sails were from the 16th century and the occupation happened in the 24th.
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Mar 12, 2020 01:02
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CainFortea posted:I get the feeling that for some folks, if the federation knows you exist you've been annexed. do you deny that the federation is annexing the spatial volume around our hypothethical primitive species' world so as to deny the rights to exploit those resources (and interfere with the native population) to the klingons and romulans, in the strict legal sense? because yes that kind of his how annexation works and how the federation practices it. it's not just "the federation knows you exist", it's "the federation has to serve notice to everyone it has diplomatic dealings with that you are Under Starfleet Protection" (as with the kelpians). the ferengi get mad about it because they aren't allowed to pursue those markets, et cetera. it's politics and diplomacy the same as anywhere else, Trek uses diplomatic and Cold War metaphors all the time
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Mar 12, 2020 01:11
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i know elysium is a comparison that has been run into the ground at this point but the federation really are a shiny space station in orbit with technology that can solve everyone's problems
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Mar 12, 2020 01:41
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Ferrinus posted:Imperialism and genocide aren’t unavoidable consequences of cross-cultural contact. They’re caused be the prevailing mode of production of the society with greater military capabilities. If the Prime Directive actually does protect pre-warp civilizations - rather than simply condemning billions to death by preventable causes for the sake of creating a more realistic terrarium to peer into - then it must be the case that the Federation itself is actually a harmful and exploitative society. This is a good point, and accurate. And I don't think it's at odds with anything portrayed in star trek. The Federation isn't necessarily a utopia, it just a hodgepodge of aliens that put some rules in place in order to mitigate the amount of shittiness they beget upon themselves or other aliens. Doing away with money doesn't erase inequality, but it does do away with poverty, or at least that's the idea. The prime directive doesn't erase imperialism, but it makes it more difficult. It's like the US making anti-corruption laws. You're only deliberately making it more difficult to do business with blatantly corrupt entities, which, you know, is pretty good. But nobody is under any illusion that it's stamped out corruption for good. Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Mar 12, 2020 |
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Mar 12, 2020 01:49
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CainFortea posted:I don't think any of you knows what annexation means. There are a ton of false assumptions per post about how things work in Trek without the realization that they're about 98% wrong. I feel like people watched or read a few episodes and try to gleam insights from a few throw away lines or plot threads without knowing about the two dozen other episodes that completely contradict those same ideas or expand on them more completely. How many times have we heard about how much inequality there is in the Federation because old Grampa Sisko loved to cook real food? Impossibly Perfect Sphere fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 12, 2020 |
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Mar 12, 2020 01:58
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Everyone in this thread exhaustively knows exactly what happens in star trek. Kirk fights the gorn. What they can't possibly know is your specific, imaginative interpretation of how everything works and connects back to the exact moment that kirk found the gorn, the history of gorn/federation territorial conflict, what the ph levels in the soil were on the planet, if bob hope was clowning around (as usual) behind the camera or not, if the enterprise had enough dilithium crystals to make to to zerr-9 without docking first at the starbase on sherman's planet, and so on. So ultimately, since so much is literally imaginary, and the writers are themselves employing their imaginations in creating variations on situations, including specific instances where riker has a transporter twin clone brother, it seems silly to say transporters and holodecks etc do not work one way when clearly they work in all of them.
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Mar 12, 2020 02:08
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:There are a ton of false assumptions per post about how things work in Trek without the realization that they're about 98% wrong. I feel like people watched or read a few episodes and try to gleam insights from a few throw away lines or plot threads without knowing about the two dozen other episodes that completely contradict those same ideas or expand on them more completely. How many times have we heard about how much inequality there is in the Federation because old Grampa Sisko loved to cook real food? It's even worse than that, it's specifically predicated on a two line exchange where Grampa Sisko insisted that he wanted to keep working at his restaurant rather than go in for treatment because it would involve staying bedridden, which doesn't demonstrate that point at all. It's a standard nerd past time to argue complex elements about the world from scant bare references, but it's also basically where biblical literalism comes from. Or weird adding up numbers of the bible to find the end of the world. You can skew the exact words to mean just about anything if you can muster the cognitive dissonance to ignore their contexts.
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Mar 12, 2020 02:12
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Kesper North posted:do you deny that the federation is annexing the spatial volume around our hypothethical primitive species' world so as to deny the rights to exploit those resources (and interfere with the native population) to the klingons and romulans, in the strict legal sense? Nah, that's not annexation. Because once those pre-warp societies achieve warp technology they get to do whatever. Join the federation, don't join it. Up to them.
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Mar 12, 2020 02:23
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CainFortea posted:Nah, that's not annexation. Because once those pre-warp societies achieve warp technology they get to do whatever. Join the federation, don't join it. Up to them. as long as they're not living on totally sweet planets that totally resemble california and also grant eternal youth or have too much dilithium or [insert Bastard Admiral From Hell reason here] it's annexation, you just only make an issue of the ones you actually mind losing, and you do that rarely enough and nobody calls you on it come on dude, this is how goonswarm also rolls
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Mar 12, 2020 02:45
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Goonswarm is a WH40k gimmick, not a star trek gimmick. That's the dental thing. Any way none of that happens tho.
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Mar 12, 2020 03:11
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CainFortea posted:Goonswarm is a WH40k gimmick, not a star trek gimmick. That's the dental thing. starfleet dental was started by gene roddenberry
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Mar 12, 2020 03:20
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Kesper North posted:I see a trap here: If we apply the rubric that they are citizens by default strictly, this means that the Federation is now vacuuming up worlds full of indigenes. That’s not really a trap, because it’s a distinct issue: why is the Federation so expansionist? The Starfleet mission is ostensibly exploration and scientific discovery, and that doesn’t require claiming territory at all. Unless, of course, that’s not the actual mission. This brings us back to the point that the Federation economy is dominated by mining corporations, and its Star-Fleet is basically make-work program. Military Keynesianism. It’s not an accident that the Federation keeps getting into all these wars (mainly of the ‘cold’ variety). The Federation already clearly has more than enough resources to augment every Federation citizen into a Data-like superbeing. But, instead, even the father of a prominent Starfleet Captain is dying of the 24th-century equivalent of polio. There’s no need for more land and resources outside of an obvious drive for profit and expansion that overrides human concerns. It’s evident even though the ideologists disavow it. This is undoubtedly why Federation citizenship is dependent on advanced technology, while there is basically no mention of anticapitalism. In the event that a society attains warp-speed and suddenly ‘counts’ in the eyes of the Federation, where do they get their dilithium from? That’s a rhetorical question. Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:There are a ton of false assumptions per post about how things work in Trek without the realization that they're about 98% wrong. I feel like people watched or read a few episodes and try to gleam insights from a few throw away lines or plot threads without knowing about the two dozen other episodes that completely contradict those same ideas or expand on them more completely. Plz list the two dozen episodes that contradict anything we’ve written. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Mar 12, 2020 |
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Mar 12, 2020 03:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s not really a trap, because it’s a distinct issue: why is the Federation so expansionist? They aren't. Mystery solved.
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Mar 12, 2020 03:34
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CainFortea posted:They aren't. Mystery solved. Then how did they end up with all those ‘pre-warp’ planets in their territory?
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Mar 12, 2020 03:51
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CainFortea posted:They aren't. Mystery solved. the show was pitched originally as "wagon train in space", how is that not expansionist the federation is always looking for new allies, new trading partners, and new unspoiled worlds to settle, or even terraform that's all expansionism remember all that federation root beer? expansionism, cultural imperialism too the dilithium issue keeps coming up too tbh, SMG's framework is the only one that makes logical sense given what we have been shown on screen: the Federation's utopia is a homo sapiens only club run as a thin neoliberal veneer smeared over the face of extraction interests that use both synth and hologram slave labor even if they don't use humans (or prison labor, as in the case of rura penthe) this systemic inequity is facilitated by jowly grifters like harcourt fenton mudd (what has he been up to!!!) and whatever admiral is clearly running a corrupt agenda this week (whether it's cartwright pushing a war with the klingons or doughertyOUT trying to get immortality from the ba'ku or... the list goes on)
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Mar 12, 2020 03:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Then how did they end up with all those ‘pre-warp’ planets in their territory? Being in a territory is not the same as being annexed. Also, being "so expansionist" claims that they're growing quickly. Which isn't true either.
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Mar 12, 2020 03:59
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Join Starfleet Today! - 'Hey At Least We're Trying!' The United Federation of Planets - 'Could Be Worse!'
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Mar 12, 2020 04:06
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CainFortea posted:Being in a territory is not the same as being annexed. if a sovereign state rolls up and says "this territory is now part of the united federation of planets", that is annexation that is literally the definition of annexation. go look it up if'n you don't believe me. it's not like they asked the locals' permission, that would reveal the federation's existence and break the prime directive now perhaps for the sake of argument we say that the territory claimed by the federation does not include the inhabited planet, up to its equivalent of the Karman Line, just the space around it, or even the space around that particular solar system that is still "territory" that other states wish to claim, or may even have claimed previously (see: organia) annexation is traditionally held to be illegal well guess what, the romulans and klingons don't recognize tons of federation territory. they call those claims illegal annexation. think fishing rights in the south china sea here
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Mar 12, 2020 04:06
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CainFortea posted:Being in a territory is not the same as being annexed. The federation’s only existed for a few hundred years and in that time has expanded so far that its borders butt up against other expansionist empires which have existed for way longer.
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Mar 12, 2020 04:08
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FWIW Picard gives the size of the Federation as "150 species across 8000 LY" in First Contact. Even assuming it's only 8000 LY at its widest point, that's a decent chunk, encompassing millions of stars.
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Mar 12, 2020 04:13
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 also somebody said i never watched star trek and couldn't define annexation
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Mar 12, 2020 04:15
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Kesper North posted:if a sovereign state rolls up and says "this territory is now part of the united federation of planets", that is annexation Please let me know what episode it is where someone from the federation claims the planet that someone else was living on. I'll wait. Also: Kesper North posted:fishing rights 
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Mar 12, 2020 04:16
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To what extent can a pre-warp, and especially pre-space faring society lay claim to anything beyond its home planet? If we sent some astronauts with a flag to Io and found out that actually super powerful aliens were using it as a day spa and had actually built alien strip malls on all the Jovian moons, which were officially listed in the galactic record books as The Moons of Shazbutt 4, what right would we have to say "hey those moons are ours, we saw them through a telescope hundreds of years ago!"? I mean, we'd still try and bomb them because we're cunts, but nobody annexed them from us. They never belonged to us to annex.
Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Mar 12, 2020 |
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Mar 12, 2020 04:21
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The federation is space america so if america is expansionist or imperialist then so is the federation
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Mar 12, 2020 04:22
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ProTip: If a population in a location does not respect (or even know) your laws, provide your government with resources or labor, or even know that you exist, it has not been annexed.
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Mar 12, 2020 04:24
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CainFortea posted:Please let me know what episode it is where someone from the federation claims the planet that someone else was living on. you mean aside from insurrection where they were supposed to get loaded aboard holodeck ships that would substitute folgier's crystals for their regular planet until they could be dropped off somewhere else? i'm getting bored so i'm too lazy to hunt down other examples, but that seems like a good one who says the ba'ku were the only group that ever happened to?
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Mar 12, 2020 04:34
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CainFortea posted:They aren't. Mystery solved.
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Mar 12, 2020 04:38
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CainFortea posted:ProTip: so if the reason why we here now in 2020 don't have replicators and starships is because some aliens have declared us offlimits, and we are deprived of the benefits we would gain thereby, how does that not constitute an infringement on our sovereign territorial and diplomatic rights tantamount to annexation? just because we are presently an untapped resource does not mean we are not still, for the purposes of policy and political agendas, a resource tbh i also think that keeping people ignorant of anything, whether it's the existence of other species or mass surveillance, "for their own good" smacks of power-hungry elitism that is a bad look on utopia (speaking of which, let's give it up for the federation, a world in which Computer knows where you are at all times and will narc on you to your boss upon request)
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Mar 12, 2020 04:41
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So the Federation is bad for exploring, but also they should set up vassal states wherever they go.
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Mar 12, 2020 04:44
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We have 3 nations on this planet that are surrounded entirely by other countries and aren't annexed. hth
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Mar 12, 2020 05:03
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Kesper North posted:you mean aside from insurrection where they were supposed to get loaded aboard holodeck ships that would substitute folgier's crystals for their regular planet until they could be dropped off somewhere else? Also: The ba'ku weren't pre-warp. Also also, that whole thing was specifically not the way it normally works, and in fact was stopped. Using this as an example is like saying that everyone murders everyone else because that one guy killed people.
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Mar 12, 2020 05:06
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Sure, a pre-Warp civilization hasn't had their planet occupied by the Federation, but the moment they make contact they'll find out that everything that's not their planet is Federation territory. Potentially for years of travel for their warp drives in every direction. Assuming that the Federation gives them travel rights. Them getting to perform any trade with other civilizations will be solely on the sufference of the Federation. I mean, technically they're not annexed. But that's like saying that workers in company towns being paid company scrip who can't leave without trespassing on company land and who are dependent on company goods aren't slaves (*). Technically that's totally the case, but I'm pretty sure only the lawiest of lawyers give a gently caress. (*) yes, yes, technically the primitives are unlikely to have run out of resources on their entire planet but, well, have fun being a one planet polity in interstellar politics town. Complications fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Mar 12, 2020 |
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Mar 12, 2020 05:08
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Can you cite any examples where the Federation did not give a planet that was pre-warp and then learned warp technology, then did not join the federation, travel rights?
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Mar 12, 2020 05:12
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CainFortea posted:Can you cite any examples where the Federation did not give a planet that was pre-warp and then learned warp technology, then did not join the federation, travel rights? Can you cite any examples where they did?
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Mar 12, 2020 05:16
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Plus, the ship is literally named after the enterprise Surely this reference to enlightenment era warships has no imperial connotations lmao
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Mar 12, 2020 05:31
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Here's a hypothetical for you. There's a pair of relatively close systems that each contain a pre-warp civilization. One develops advanced sensors and discovers that the other is suffering from a terrible plague that the first's medical science can cure. Fortunately, the first is also on the cusp of warp technology, so all they have to do is launch this medical ship and- --whoops! Turns out both systems have long since been claimed as Federation space! Picard interdicts the first civilization's rescue ship, welcomes its crew to the Federation, and calmly explains that it would violate the Prime Directive to interfere with the second civilization's development in any way.
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Mar 12, 2020 06:05
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