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CainFortea posted:Like the fact that he's literally making up stuff about the Doctor in voyager. His last post was referring to Voyager's episode "Latent Image".
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Mar 13, 2020 19:56
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SlothfulCobra posted:The Black Power movement had very little power, that was the whole point of the movement. They wanted to have some kind of control over their own fates rather than just consign themselves to the charity of the benevolent whites who have power. It doesn't matter how good the intentions of your overlords are, if you're totally subject to their whims, there will be negative consequences. Intentions can change very quickly anyways. While that's not wrong, it's taking for granted that the Federation system is here to stay and there are no alternatives. There will always be this hugely unbalanced power relationship, even charity has a catch, so the ultimate charity is no charity at all: survival of the fittest under the Cosmic Plan. Of course, rendering charity illegal does absolutely nothing about the fact that "pre-warp" Federation noncitizens are already 'subject to the whims of well-intentioned overlords'. The Prime Directive is exactly such a whim. All you're doing is taking steps to mitigate things by hopefully-minimizing overt (subjective/objective) violence in order to leave the ultimate systemic violence unquestioned. And when that's the mindset, we're left with is a genuine hopelessness where "pre-warp" Federation noncitizens (coded as aboriginal, mind) are literally considered better off dead. Like, think about that for a second. When Picard makes the analogy to Columbus, he's saying that he'd prefer it if the aboriginal peoples of the Americas had all just died in an earthquake, rather than than survive and persist as they have. It would have saved them from so much suffering, right? His heart goes out to them, truly. That's bullshit. The horizon of egalitarian thought is not just a bunch of isolated fuckin' ethnostates waiting for deliverance.
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Mar 13, 2020 20:14
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Zane posted:the classical marxist tradition does not have any rights language. i am doing my best to work within the terms you've proposed. and i will no longer indulge any more babbling about the penchant of liberal capitalism towards total isolationism -- a position you've already half abandoned. how do you explain the us intervention in bosnia? or the us wars in vietnam and korea? or the us intervention in ww2? or the us civil war? or the british opium wars? or really any major war over the nineteenth and twentieth centuries? come back when you've learned the most basic rudiments of political economy. I used the words "rights" as a rhetorical device because I didn't just want to repeat the word "flourishing" again. Although, as Hodgepodge points out, the concept of "rights" has seen repeated use by socialists and communists, both for beating-the-liberals-at-their-own-game rhetorical judo and in such documents as the Soviet constitution. Please stop trying to score points and start being serious. As I have said, attempting to draw analogies like Federation:Ba'ku::USA:Bosnia is extremely stupid. Bosnia knows the USA exists. Bosnia can meaningfully talk to, aid, or even struggle against the USA, even if they're at a massive structural disadvantage in all cases. To repeat myself, Picard's language is extremely telling here: pre-warp civilizations aren't distinct sovereign states to be treated with according to diplomatic protocols, they are infants or invalids. The Feds don't treat medieval or industrial societies like third-world labor pools (they don't have to; dilithium and fabricator technology, not to mention the advent of AI slavery, has, like I said, reduced the actual value of almost any commodity to basically nil - there is simply no job for these people to profitably do) they treat them like homeless people, or the disabled, or racial minorities. They simply shut them out of society, leaving them outside the borders or inside the prisons, denying them any of the rights or benefits that society affords to those deemed fully human. Separately, the Feds are obviously not isolationist when it comes to other warp-capable states, and do in fact have disputes with them over territory, resources, whatever. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Mar 13, 2020 |
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Mar 13, 2020 20:58
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Lord Krangdar posted:His last post was referring to Voyager's episode "Latent Image". No, I know what he was referring to. The "making up" part was that they don't see him as a person and did it apparently for shits and giggles. And not as what is basically a medical procedure because of trauma.
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Mar 13, 2020 21:01
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CainFortea posted:No, I know what he was referring to. The "making up" part was that they don't see him as a person and did it apparently for shits and giggles. And not as what is basically a medical procedure because of trauma. Hey man, he's a doctor....NOT a doorstop. why did we never meet the emh bork later
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Mar 13, 2020 21:05
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Lord Krangdar posted:His last post was referring to Voyager's episode "Latent Image". Since we’ve been discussing Latent Image, it’s actually one of the strongest criticisms of Federation ideology and the Prime Directive. Like, it’s not great - but it’s miles ahead. So obviously, in the first half of the episode, Janeway dismisses the Doctor as just a mass-produced object and they can do whatever they like to him. If he starts malfunctioning, just wipe his memories, etc. The second half of the episode, though, is where things get interesting: Janeway realizes the Doctor is a person, and now feels enormous guilt over having created a person who be will forever tormented by existential questions of free will, ‘why am I here?’, and so-on. So we have a shift: rather than erase The Doctor’s memory for her own benefit, Janeway now erases his memory in order to protect him from the truth about the harsh and terrifying nature of the universe. This isn’t some airy debate either; upon learning the truth, The Doctor has become angry, violent, suicidal.... Janeway feels she has very good reason to keep him forever ignorant via the replicant equivalent of constant drugging or lobotomy. Picard: “No matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous.” But it doesn’t end in disaster. The whole crew works together to keep The Doctor in round-the-clock suicide watch. They simply talk with him - and just keep talking to him, until he’s coping slightly better with his feelings of despair. At the end of the episode Homeward, one of the Bolaarans escapes the holodeck cave. Picard handles this situation extremely badly (even by the standards of this episode) and the guy commits suicide, alone in his room.
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Mar 13, 2020 21:08
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Edit^^^^ lol at just ignoring the 2 years of development the doctor undergoes. Ferrinus posted:They simply shut them out of society, leaving them outside the borders or inside the prisons, denying them any of the rights or benefits that society affords to those deemed fully human. This would be a true reading of the text of the show if you had any examples of a pre-warp society becoming warp capable, then getting shut out of the federation because they're not cool enough. But you don't so it isn't. The prime directive is directed at starfleet personnel, to ensure that they don't start playing tin gods on these planets. It isn't a way to keep undesirables out.
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Mar 13, 2020 21:08
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CainFortea posted:Edit^^^^ Dude, the problem isn't that societies aren't treated nicely enough once they bootstrap themselves up to warp level. The problem is that while still pre-warp, pre-warp societies undergo incredible pointless suffering that the Federation could easily alleviate but chooses not to.
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Mar 13, 2020 21:12
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Ferrinus posted:Dude, the problem isn't that societies aren't treated nicely enough once they bootstrap themselves up to warp level. The problem is that while still pre-warp, pre-warp societies undergo incredible pointless suffering that the Federation could easily alleviate but chooses not to. That isn't what you said in the bit I quoted. vOv
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Mar 13, 2020 21:14
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CainFortea posted:That isn't what you said in the bit I quoted. vOv The Feds don't treat medieval or industrial societies like third-world labor pools (they don't have to; dilithium and fabricator technology, not to mention the advent of AI slavery, has, like I said, reduced the actual value of almost any commodity to basically nil - there is simply no job for these people to profitably do) they treat them like homeless people, or the disabled, or racial minorities. They simply shut them out of society, leaving them outside the borders or inside the prisons, denying them any of the rights or benefits that society affords to those deemed fully human.
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Mar 13, 2020 21:30
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Ferrinus posted:The Feds don't treat medieval or industrial societies like third-world labor pools (they don't have to; dilithium and fabricator technology, not to mention the advent of AI slavery, has, like I said, reduced the actual value of almost any commodity to basically nil - there is simply no job for these people to profitably do) they treat them like homeless people, or the disabled, or racial minorities. They simply shut them out of society, leaving them outside the borders or inside the prisons, denying them any of the rights or benefits that society affords to those deemed fully human. Just saying the same thing again isn't the slam dunk you think it is. Again, if there were any examples of those societies becoming post-warp and still getting shut out you might have a point. As it stands, that doesn't happen so you don't. If a planetary culture changes to the point where they become warp capable, and don't have a record of violation of sentient rights, they can join the federation if the federation and that culture decide to do so. Also lol at the idea that they only are interested in cultures deemed "fully human" when the prime directive is very specifically about not enforcing other people's cultures on those who have little to no chance of resisting it.
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Mar 13, 2020 21:57
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It’s too bad they never followed up with whether or not those sentient robot drones from tng were ever granted citizen status or not (since they’re never shown again as staffed personnel in any other setting post-episode, they probably weren’t and are still being sent to their deaths).
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Mar 13, 2020 22:01
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CainFortea posted:Just saying the same thing again isn't the slam dunk you think it is. Okay I am genuinely convinced right now that you are not reading my posts, either due to extremely motivated reasoning or a genuine inability to parse my language. I'm going to try to be as simple as I possibly can be. I'm not talking about whether the Federation treats societies fairly after those societies develop warp drive. I'm saying that the Federation treats pre-warp societies unfairly. "Medieval" or "Industrial" societies refers to civilizations that are at the serfs-and-castles or coal-mines-and-steam-engines level. For example, slightly-before-modern-day humanity, with all the attendant child mortality, deaths from plague, chattel slavery, and what have you. That stuff. It's very telling that the only thing that concerns you is post-warp people getting shut out, because, of course, only those people actually deserve to be treated like people. Pre-warp? gently caress 'em!
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Mar 13, 2020 22:04
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Ferrinus posted:Okay I am genuinely convinced right now that you are not reading my posts, either due to extremely motivated reasoning or a genuine inability to parse my language. I'm going to try to be as simple as I possibly can be. Well, your previous posts certainly used words to describe treating someone forever with a stigma or as, at best, second class citizens. If you meant something else, maybe don't use those words next time? Just a free tip there for ya. And again, since you keep ignoring this point, the prime directive isn't really about pre-warp societies. It's directed specifically at starfleet personnel to ensure they don't go around using their technology to take over other cultures. It's a subtle distinction, I can see how you might miss it. This does not mean that the federation is making a moral judgement on those cultures, that they aren't worthy. It does not mean that the federation is actually a huge star empire devoted to taking over the galaxy.
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Mar 13, 2020 22:16
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CainFortea posted:No, I know what he was referring to. The "making up" part was that they don't see him as a person and did it apparently for shits and giggles. And not as what is basically a medical procedure because of trauma. Earlier in the episode, Janeway does directly say that she doesn't see him as a person. She says he is just a tool. Later on, she seems to change her mind on that. And by the end of the series she argues for his rights as a person, in the episode "Author, Author". But she is depicted as an outlier in the Federation in doing so, and that's the same episode where we see other EMHs of the same model forced into slave labor (mining dilithium).
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Mar 13, 2020 22:25
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Gene Roddenberry's head is floating in space
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Mar 13, 2020 22:27
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CainFortea posted:Well, your previous posts certainly used words to describe treating someone forever with a stigma or as, at best, second class citizens. I didn't say "forever", and have in fact brought up multiple hypotheticals of pre-warp societies becoming post-warp societies and suddenly finding themselves unbound by or even on the opposite end of the Prime Directive. Furthermore, prison sentences, border exclusions, etc. are not themselves necessarily "forever" or universally applied - in fact, the porous and inconsistent nature of something like US immigration law is part of what makes it work so well on behalf of the bourgeoise. What I'm saying here is that you're full of poo poo and the failure to read is completely on you. Now that that's out of the way, what on earth are you talking about? The Prime Directive is explicitly about pre-warp societies. It directs the Federation to not interfere with pre-warp societies in any way, even if that would doom such societies to destruction. Certain people are worthy of humanitarian aid; certain other people are not. In fact, if we tried to help them, we'd actually hurt them, because they simply aren't mature enough to handle not dying of cancer! Basically, the Federation's stance is fully encapsulated in the following conservative meme: 
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Mar 13, 2020 22:29
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In your own words, what is the prime directive?
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Mar 13, 2020 22:37
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Ferrinus posted:
If the prime directive is only about pre-warp societies, then how come it comes up in reference to post-warp societies such as Angel 1? Also, now who's not reading the other's posts? lol.
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Mar 13, 2020 22:40
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Lord Krangdar posted:His last post was referring to Voyager's episode "Latent Image". Star Trek fans do not watch Star Trek.
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Mar 13, 2020 22:44
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I'll break it down simply, in deference to you Kent. The prime directive isn't there to keep technology away from pre-warp cultures. Or from post-warp cultures who are at a lower technology level than the federation. That isn't it's purpose. That is, however, one of it's effects. The purpose of the prime directive is to keep starfleet personnel from playing god with their technological superiority. Which is why it doesn't apply when they do stuff against the romulans for example. It's not a judgement on cultures that are not as technologically advanced as they are, it's very specifically the opposite of that.
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Mar 13, 2020 23:00
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CainFortea posted:I'll break it down simply, in deference to you Kent. What episodes are you basing this on? Specific examples please, thanks.
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Mar 13, 2020 23:05
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Right now there's a Starfleet captain reading this thread from a secret Federation listening post saying "See? This is the reason we have the prime directive. Could you imagine giving these fuckwits warp reactors?"
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Mar 13, 2020 23:08
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CainFortea posted:If the prime directive is only about pre-warp societies, then how come it comes up in reference to post-warp societies such as Angel 1? I'm reading your posts in full, I just don't agree with them. You're right that Starfleet still generally holds stuff back from cultures which are technologically advanced enough to know they exist, but post-warp vs. pre-warp is a major, decisive dividing line that makes the difference between Starfleet simply neglecting to gently caress with you versus Starfleet treating you like a zoo exhibit. CainFortea posted:I'll break it down simply, in deference to you Kent. So like, when pre-warp aliens are dying in droves from an easily-cured-through-modern-technology plague, they can reassure themselves that their deaths aren't on purpose, merely a side effect?
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Mar 13, 2020 23:10
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Also it's worth noting that Star Trek also considers the Federation as still some kind of midway point that there are number of far more advanced civilizations and beings to the point of being weird things beyond our traditional comprehension of existence. Most of them just keep to themselves in their alternate plane of existence, some wind up being malevolent. I still don't know what that floating bearded man head's deal was. One of them kidnapped Wesley. The Organians wound up brokering a lasting peace between the Klingons and Federation because the war had broke out in their backyard. Some left their sentient toxic garbage lying around, although maybe it could be harvested for printer ink.
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Mar 13, 2020 23:19
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Ferrinus posted:You're right that Starfleet still generally holds stuff back from cultures which are technologically advanced enough to know they exist, but post-warp vs. pre-warp is a major, decisive dividing line that makes the difference between Starfleet simply neglecting to gently caress with you versus Starfleet treating you like a zoo exhibit. Nothing you just said here refutes my point that the prime directive isn't about pre-warp cultures. It's about starfleet personnel not using their advanced technology to play god with other cultures. The only division between pre and post warp societies is that they don't try to hide their very existence from post-warp people. quote:So like, when pre-warp aliens are dying in droves from an easily-cured-through-modern-technology plague, they can reassure themselves that their deaths aren't on purpose, merely a side effect? Finger Prince posted:Right now there's a Starfleet captain reading this thread from a secret Federation listening post saying "See? This is the reason we have the prime directive. Could you imagine giving these fuckwits warp reactors?" The fact that you seem to think that you can personally define what life is, and that your culture and sense of morality is superior to literally everyone else's is more proof than anyone should need that the prime directive, or something like it, is probably a good thing. Also yes. It is in fact better that a bunch of people not be killed on purpose. wtf is wrong with you? Edit: Hell, given the number of times we see people get all up in another planet's poo poo for their own ends suggests that maybe it's a good idea CainFortea fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Mar 13, 2020 |
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Mar 13, 2020 23:23
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Ferrinus posted:So like, when pre-warp aliens are dying in droves from an easily-cured-through-modern-technology plague, they can reassure themselves that their deaths aren't on purpose, merely a side effect? You're really basing your whole premise on the idea that if only they didn't have the prime directive stopping them, the Federation would help if they could, when historical precedent shows that they absolutely wouldn't if it didn't serve their interests. Two neighboring civilizations, both suffering from a horrible plague, and you only have the ability to cure one. The Bootlicking Toadies of Planet Dilithium, who have already begun carving the words of the Prime Directive on giant alabaster tablets next to a statue of you and your powerful starship, and the Beligerent Dickheads of Planet Worthless Shithole, who have promised to bombard earth with impulse powered asteroids whether you give them the cure or not. And also they want your warp reactor. Who are you going to give the cure to? You'd give it to the Toadies of course. Why wouldn't you cure the Dickheads? Are you space racist or something? The most correct answer is of course, why the gently caress do either of them know anything about you in the first place? Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Mar 13, 2020 |
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Mar 13, 2020 23:31
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CainFortea posted:Nothing you just said here refutes my point that the prime directive isn't about pre-warp cultures. It's about starfleet personnel not using their advanced technology to play god with other cultures. The only division between pre and post warp societies is that they don't try to hide their very existence from post-warp people. That's a major division, and frankly I do not believe that, for example, the Federation categorically refuses to offer political advice or technological aid to less advanced but nevertheless post-warp cultures. Like, take literal First Contact - Cochrane guns his warp drive, the Vulcans notice us and show up. Did they proceed to refuse to teach us anything, just stolidly sitting there and waiting while we invented our own transporters, our own phasers, our own fabricators? It's a ridiculous idea. quote:The fact that you seem to think that you can personally define what life is, and that your culture and sense of morality is superior to literally everyone else's is more proof than anyone should need that the prime directive, or something like it, is probably a good thing. So if I kill you, that's bad. But if I let you die despite being able to easily save you, that's fine. Yes? Finger Prince posted:You're really basing your whole premise on the idea that if only they didn't have the prime directive stopping them, the Federation would help if they could, when historical precedent shows that they absolutely wouldn't if it didn't serve their interests. Two neighboring civilizations, both suffering from a horrible plague, and you only have the ability to cure one. The Bootlicking Toadies of Planet Dilithium, who have already begun carving the words of the Prime Directive on giant alabaster tablets next to a statue of you and your powerful starship, and the Beligerent Dickheads of Planet Worthless Shithole, who have promised to bombard earth with impulse powered asteroids whether you give them the cure or not. And also they want your warp reactor. Who are you going to give the cure to? You'd give it to the Toadies of course. Why wouldn't you cure the Dickheads? Are you space racist or something? I don't think you can separate the Prime Directive from the Federation's general propensity to be a bad actor, as a thing. The former is an outgrowth of the latter. If the Federation actually was an example of fully automated space communism we'd be having a different discussion, but we're not because it isn't.
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Mar 13, 2020 23:31
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CainFortea posted:The purpose of the prime directive is to keep starfleet personnel from playing god with their technological superiority. Which is why it doesn't apply when they do stuff against the romulans for example. Your two obvious major failings here: 1) Treating such a ridiculously nebulous concept as ‘playing god’ as a legal term. 2) Defining equality in terms of ‘technological advancement’. So if a poor person and a rich person both have Internet access, that’s equality. Like, the fact that you even assert this shows that you are totally uninterested in questions of equality and justice. So what’s your goal?
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Mar 13, 2020 23:42
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Ferrinus posted:Did they proceed to refuse to teach us anything, just stolidly sitting there and waiting while we invented our own transporters, our own phasers, our own fabricators? It's a ridiculous idea. Actually yea, that's what they did. That was sort of a big deal in Enterprise. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Like, the fact that you even assert this shows that you are totally uninterested in questions of equality and justice. So what’s your goal? No, I am interested in those question. I'm just not interested in folks passing off their edgelord fan fic as what was actually presented.
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Mar 13, 2020 23:50
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CainFortea posted:The fact that you seem to think that you can personally define what life is, and that your culture and sense of morality is superior to literally everyone else's is more proof than anyone should need that the prime directive, or something like it, is probably a good thing. By your own definition in the previous paragraph, you do not get a say as to what constitutes “people” in the federation since you are born from a pre-warp society.
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Mar 13, 2020 23:58
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ruddiger posted:By your own definition in the previous paragraph, you do not get a say as to what constitutes “people” in the federation since you are born from a pre-warp society. Actually, I don't get a say on what constitutes people because i'm not an rear end in a top hat. My inability to travel faster than light has no impact on that.
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Mar 13, 2020 23:59
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Just remembered the federation let the Klingons genocide the Tribbles to the point of near extinction. Cool.
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Mar 14, 2020 00:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Your two obvious major failings here: what a fool, not using proper legal terminology in the RSF Star Trek thread!
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Mar 14, 2020 00:00
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Seriously, though, what does "playing God" actually mean?
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Mar 14, 2020 00:03
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Doing the stations of the cross in the church basement
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Mar 14, 2020 00:05
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CainFortea posted:Actually yea, that's what they did. Yes, they obviously held some stuff back, particularly advanced weapon systems or other elements that would allow us to threaten them technologically. But did they refuse to cure our diseases? Feed our hungry? Even if they did (which would be sociopathic), their very presence gave us immense technological help simply by showing us what kind of technologies were possible and therefore aiming our research into guaranteed-to-be-fruitful directions. If you're not dealing with a pre-warp civilization, the Prime Directive loses its absolutist quasi-religious character and just becomes foreign policy.
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Mar 14, 2020 00:07
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Lord Krangdar posted:Seriously, though, what does "playing God" actually mean? Teleporting down to a planet, phaser blasting a tree or some such and going "I AM YOUR NEW GOD"
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Mar 14, 2020 00:07
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CainFortea posted:Actually, I don't get a say on what constitutes people because i'm not an rear end in a top hat. My inability to travel faster than light has no impact on that. So if you saw someone who was being denied personhood by some bigot, you’d just shrug and say sorry, I can’t make that distinction in regards to your personhood to help? E: unrelated image because Star Trek definitely has assholes in space. 
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Mar 14, 2020 00:08
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CainFortea posted:No, I am interested in those question. I'm just not interested in folks passing off their edgelord fan fic as what was actually presented. You have made repeated (direct and indirect) reference to this notion of “actual presentation”, which is evidently just a type of essentialism based in hypercredulity. So, for example: Picard is simply good because we’re told he’s good. Transporter cloning can only ever occur accidentally because we’re never told otherwise. The Prime Directive is a great idea because we’re told it is, etc. As noted earlier, I really hate Star Trek. But I’m really interested in how fandom can lead to this type of thought.
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Mar 14, 2020 00:08
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