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Ferrinus posted:If you're not dealing with a pre-warp civilization, the Prime Directive loses its absolutist quasi-religious character and just becomes foreign policy. You know what else makes it lose it's quasi-religious character? Not giving it a quasi-religious character. Because i'm not doing that. The writers of the show aren't doing that. You're doing that. You could just...you know...stop if it bugs you. Also, you hit the nail on the head as to why they take greater care with pre-warp cultures. If you have warp drive, and are USING that warp drive, you are going to find other cultures. Or at least hear their subspace signals since that's the same thing. There's no hiding from them. But since you have FTL ships, now you have choices. Do you tell the Vulcans to gently caress off and go looking around yourself? Maybe you'll find another race with less pointy ears. Or maybe you tell everyone to gently caress off and just do your own thing? Either way, you've got lots of options. If you don't have warp drive, someone showing up on your planet going "Hey ya'all aliens are real and we go really fuckin fast" is going to have a great impact on you and your society, and you have absolutely no choice. ruddiger posted:So if you saw someone who was being denied personhood by some bigot, you’d just shrug and say sorry, I can’t make that distinction in regards to your personhood to help? lol you're really reaching aren't you? CainFortea fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Mar 14, 2020 |
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Mar 14, 2020 00:15
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CainFortea posted:You know what else makes it lose it's quasi-religious character? Not giving it a quasi-religious character. Because i'm not doing that. The writers of the show aren't doing that. You're doing that. You could just...you know...stop if it bugs you. There's no stopping it, because the characters of the series themselves give it an absolutist and quasi-religious character, since they reference "the cosmic plan" as justification for condemning planetfuls of people to horrible death. Obviously, aliens showing up will impact your society. But that it will always impact your society negatively is a highly ideological claim, especially if those aliens can trivially cure the coronavirus and end world hunger.
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Mar 14, 2020 00:20
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Is there anything in the show that suggests it's not a claim based on the history of the inshow universe?
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Mar 14, 2020 00:22
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The false opposition of total isolation and imperialism-genocide forecloses the possibility of solidarity between, say, “prewarp” peoples and holographic slaves.
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Mar 14, 2020 00:26
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CainFortea posted:Is there anything in the show that suggests it's not a claim based on the history of the inshow universe? I have no doubt that the history of pre-Federation alien societies is replete with examples of First Contact scenarios with pre-warp civilizations gone awry, and that the specific example of humanity being contacted like half an hour post-warp is a major historical and legal precedent for the Prime Directive as it's practiced by the contemporary Federation. But now we have to ask: why did those go awry? Why did they go awry so badly that, in the present era, the Federation has decided that it's literally preferable to allow a civilization to be destroyed than to help them with advanced technology? Apparently, meeting the Federation before you're able to technologically compete with it is a fate worse than death!
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Mar 14, 2020 00:26
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He lost the Star Trek.
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Mar 14, 2020 00:30
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Imagine you come across some blighted pre-warp civilization who is suffering from some plague which could be cured by one simple treatment from your medbay. So, like the great white saviour, you reveal yourselves as say to them, "poor, simple folk, we have come from the stars with a cure for your horrible plague!" And they tell you "gently caress off spaceman, we don't want any". And because you didn't do any covert surveillance of them, because there wasn't time, you had to intervene!, you didn't learn that they have a history of highly developed bioweapons, and one of the central tenets of their faith is "No Other Shall Exist But Us, Especially Star Men". And now that they know you're there, they develop an incurable plague to wipe out all humanity. The Vulcans didn't just turn up because of the warp engine test, they were surveilling us for centuries. They deemed us problematic and irrational, but probably nothing to worry about because we'll never get our poo poo together enough to develop warp. And then we did, quite to everyone's surprise, and they let us in their club, and taught us the ways of the prime directive, because they knew they'd just made first contact with the Beligerent Dickheads from Planet Worthless Shithole and its gonna be on them if they can't get us to behave.
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Mar 14, 2020 01:10
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Ferrinus posted:I have no doubt that the history of pre-Federation alien societies is replete with examples of First Contact scenarios with pre-warp civilizations gone awry, and that the specific example of humanity being contacted like half an hour post-warp is a major historical and legal precedent for the Prime Directive as it's practiced by the contemporary Federation. But now we have to ask: why did those go awry? Why did they go awry so badly that, in the present era, the Federation has decided that it's literally preferable to allow a civilization to be destroyed than to help them with advanced technology? Why does it go awry? Because some people are assholes. And they'll do things like move a people to steal the fountain of youth dust or something. Then the federation has to go stop them. Also, your "no doubt" doesn't actually answer the question. is there anything presented in the show or movies that suggests the idea that uplifting pre-warp cultures or futzing around in non-federation cultures usually turns out to be totally okay and not a problem at all?
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Mar 14, 2020 01:29
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How did the federation eliminate the rear end in a top hat gene from the members of the elected governing body of their society if genetic modification has been criminalized
ruddiger fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 14, 2020 |
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Mar 14, 2020 01:44
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ruddiger posted:How did the federation eliminate the rear end in a top hat gene from the members of the elected governing body of their society if genetic modification has been criminalized A thread and needle. Not well recieved.
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Mar 14, 2020 02:23
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CainFortea posted:Why does it go awry? Because some people are assholes. And they'll do things like move a people to steal the fountain of youth dust or something. Then the federation has to go stop them. Oops, you’ve just violated the Prime Directive. The people stealing the dust don’t understand warp.
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Mar 14, 2020 03:16
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Actually I think one of the people stealing the dust in that example was a starfleet admiral. I dunno, haven't gotten to that point in my chronological star trek bonanza. Also it's kind of a bad example because those people weren't actually pre-warp they were actually very advanced technologically but gave it up.
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Mar 14, 2020 03:21
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CainFortea posted:Actually I think one of the people stealing the dust in that example was a starfleet admiral. I dunno, haven't gotten to that point in my chronological star trek bonanza. Wait - you mean you didn’t even ascertain their society’s overall level of technological prowess before sending down the away team??? gently caress, man, I wouldn’t want to be you right now. Those guys were Bragorans. The natural deposits of quadrilithium in Bragora Prime’s cave systems grant them an ability to beam through space, similar to our early transporters. They do not understand the concept of space, and believe they are conquering their own ‘hollow earth’. Or, I should say, they didn’t understand the concept of space until they saw your shuttle land! You’d better hope that their minds are erasable, because they’re already building rudimentary gliders. gently caress!
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Mar 14, 2020 03:52
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You know what's hosed up, Kirk was flitting around the galaxy violating the prime directive every other episode. Those troglodyte people sure didn't have warp, and their cloud city masters didn't have the capability to leave the planet. Kirk treated the prime directive as a general guideline and suggestion more than an absolute law. Picard, ever the jobsworth, was far more by the book, and treated it as sacrosanct. Was that case of the law varying with the lawman? Or was the newer, more fundamentalist interpretation a reaction to the devil may care attitude of the Kirk era Federation?
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Mar 14, 2020 04:35
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the prime directive is just batman saying 'i won't kill you, but i don't have to save you' but applied to entire civilisations this is not a good reflection on it
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Mar 14, 2020 04:40
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Finger Prince posted:Imagine you come across some blighted pre-warp civilization who is suffering from some plague which could be cured by one simple treatment from your medbay. So the underlying tenet here, and indeed the underlying tenet of just scads and scads of Star Trek (especially TNG), is that the Other is this unknowable psycho who might just lapse into arbitrary, stupid evil at any moment. They're not like us; they're dumb and weird, liable to just go insane and try to kill us all. We need to deny them our strength, make sure they're too weak to ever threaten us. Understanding and solidarity are impossible. CainFortea posted:Why does it go awry? Because some people are assholes. And they'll do things like move a people to steal the fountain of youth dust or something. Then the federation has to go stop them. Sure, "some people are assholes". But which people, and why? Starfleet soldiers have effectively godlike powers. There are episodes in which the Enterprise crew actually laughs in disbelief when they realize they're being threatened with piddly lasers or nukes or whatever. The pre-warp people being "assholes" can't possibly cause long-term problems because they can basically be paralyzed or disappeared or mindwiped with a moment's notice. So what's going on here? Who's causing the problems? It's the Federation, because they see their technological inferiors as brutal savages or idiot children to "uplift" (which is to say, assimilate), rather than as brothers and sisters.
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Mar 14, 2020 05:43
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ruddiger posted:Just remembered the federation let the Klingons genocide the Tribbles to the point of near extinction. Cool. That's just responsible environmentalism, given they're explicitly compared to rabbits in Australia.
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Mar 14, 2020 13:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:That's just responsible environmentalism, given they're explicitly compared to rabbits in Australia. I spent three months doing environmental work in Australia for the Queensland parks service. It was like nothing I'd ever seen - truly mostly about killing poo poo rather than preserving life, and with good reason. Never met more avid hunters than Queensland greens.
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Mar 14, 2020 19:50
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I sure do love a hot tribble sandwich. I hope quark got into fast food.
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Mar 14, 2020 23:46
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FunkyAl posted:I sure do love a hot tribble sandwich. I hope quark got into fast food. dude, fried and battered with a wrappage of yamok sauce, only way
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Mar 15, 2020 03:15
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So I’m checking more old episodes and, in this one, Picard teaches a Bronze Age society atheism and promotes Federation ideology to them because it’s ‘more natural’ than belief in God.
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Mar 15, 2020 03:24
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Ghost Leviathan posted:That's just responsible environmentalism, given they're explicitly compared to rabbits in Australia. That comparison might be applicable if you’re only talking about the Tribble population on Klingon, but they specifically say that the Klingon empire wiped out the Trible homeworld.
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Mar 15, 2020 05:18
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I'd kind of like to be a fly on the wall when the Federation weighed the pros and cons of risking war with the klingons over killing animals
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Mar 15, 2020 05:55
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Kesper North posted:I spent three months doing environmental work in Australia for the Queensland parks service. It was like nothing I'd ever seen - truly mostly about killing poo poo rather than preserving life, and with good reason. Never met more avid hunters than Queensland greens. Always said, should tell the English fox hunters they can come down under and hunt all the foxes they want.
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Mar 15, 2020 09:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So I’m checking more old episodes and, in this one, Picard teaches a Bronze Age society atheism and promotes Federation ideology to them because it’s ‘more natural’ than belief in God. If you're talking about the same episode I'm thinking of Picard accidentally becomes a godlike figure to a pre warp society because he violated the prime directive hardcore. Well actually his crew did without him telling them to but it's the same thing. Then the alien society is gonna kill a captured member of his crew and his big scheme to rescue them without revealing anymore about the federation gets completely hosed up. Trapped in a corner Picard lets one of the pre-warp aliens onto his spaceship. He explains he is not a god, just a very powerful person. He explains that his star ship is not unlike the bow carried by the pre-warp alien and that to earlier (non-bow having) generations of the pre-warp society even our bow-haver could appear as a mysterious and godlike entity. She doesn't get it. He explains this directly to her face in the simplest terms possible but the person simply isn't capable of understanding. She is convinced that given the nature of Picard's ship and his obvious power to cure the dying that he should be capable of reversing death as well, much to Picard's horror. Eventually Picard gets shot with a bow by someone who refuses to believe he is a mortal like anyone else and only after that does it become clear to the society that Picard is no god at all. This story might as well be the poster child for why SMG's suggestion that the federation should go around uplifting and granting voting power to any society within their borders is a bad idea.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:12
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I will say that the way the episode has to dance around 'well THIS society is primitive and clings to their ancient beliefs that they really should be outgrowing by now' while simultaneously screaming out subtextually 'but PLEASE don't notice we're talking about you, Christians' is a pretty fun needle to watch them thread.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:15
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Ferrinus posted:Sure, "some people are assholes". But which people, and why? Starfleet soldiers have effectively godlike powers. There are episodes in which the Enterprise crew actually laughs in disbelief when they realize they're being threatened with piddly lasers or nukes or whatever. The pre-warp people being "assholes" can't possibly cause long-term problems because they can basically be paralyzed or disappeared or mindwiped with a moment's notice. So what's going on here? Who's causing the problems? No, The Federation stops people from treating those cultures as if they were their playthings.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If you're trying not to act like a god, maybe don't do unnecessary nonconsensual brain surgery on a little native girl to erase her memory. Just got to this part in my rewatch, and lol there was no surgery and it was necessary.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:40
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CainFortea posted:No, The Federation stops people from treating those cultures as if they were their playthings. Tell that to Planet Tribble.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:57
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reignofevil posted:She doesn't get it. He explains this directly to her face in the simplest terms possible but the person simply isn't capable of understanding. She is convinced that given the nature of Picard's ship and his obvious power to cure the dying that he should be capable of reversing death as well, much to Picard's horror. Eventually Picard gets shot with a bow by someone who refuses to believe he is a mortal like anyone else and only after that does it become clear to the society that Picard is no god at all. This story might as well be the poster child for why SMG's suggestion that the federation should go around uplifting and granting voting power to any society within their borders is a bad idea. While those are some of the plot points, you’re misremembering really vital parts of the episode. (The title is “Who Watches the Watchers”, for reference. The Mintakan people Picard talks to ultimately have no real problem believing anything he’s talking about, save for a single ‘crazed fundamentalist’ by the name of Liko. Then, as you note, even Liko has his mind changed pretty quickly. After a few brief conversations, and showing off his blood, Picard has fully “non-interfered” with these people by teaching them the following: -Technological determinism. -A linear theory of technology. -A linear theory of history. -Space travel. -Federation-style Multiculturalism. -Anthropology. -Atheism/Skepticism -Trusting the Federation / not fearing those in power. -The Prime Directive. What’s perhaps more telling is what Picard doesn’t teach them. There’s nothing egalitarian in his rhetoric whatsoever. Imagine the following being spoken by Jeff Bezos to a homeless person: “We are both living beings. We are born, we grow, we live and we die. In all the ways that matter, we are alike.” I can think of a few differences that really do matter. Can you? Picard repeatedly tells the Minkatans not to pay too much attention to his incredible medical technology; sure, Picard can cure all diseases and you can’t, but he wishes you good luck. But anyways, there are two main points that are missing from your analysis: 1) In offering himself up to die to prove his fallibility, Picard is actually making himself into an ersatz Christ figure - an antichrist preaching liberalism. and 2) Why is Picard treating these guys differently from the Bolaarans? The only answer is blunt racism. Troi: According to Doctor Barron's preliminary reports, the Mintakans are proto-Vulcan humanoids at the Bronze Age level. Quite peaceful and highly rational. What the gently caress is a proto-Vulcan? Troi is literally expressing a belief that, because this species resembles the Vulcans, they will naturally evolve into a race identical to the Vulcans (with an identical society, etc.) and inevitably join the Federation. Picard: Which is not surprising, considering how closely their evolution parallels Vulcan. This is why Picard has no issue with teaching them Federation ideology. Minkatans are supposed to become part of the Federation, on account of their race’s natural inclination towards atheism. The “deeply spiritual” Bolaarans are clearly not so lucky. The language used makes this clear: belief in God is consistently referred to as a cultural failure, a horrifying ignorance, a dark contamination.... Also, if they resemble Vulcans, why are they “humanoid” and not “vulcanoid”? A: Because human is the default. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 18:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Because they're using english.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:13
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It'd be cool if in real life people broke the prime directive by giving cameras and editing equipment to tribles of lowland gorillas. I bet we'd see some real interesting stuff.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:53
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CainFortea posted:Because they're using english. So english based universal translators uses ethno-centric substitutions for words? Seems like that would cause problems when arguing space politics.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:14
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Was Kirk right to remove spock from the hippie space spore commune?
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Mar 15, 2020 19:20
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CainFortea posted:Because they're using english. Troi is a Betazoid. She speaks Betazed.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:While those are some of the plot points, you’re misremembering really vital parts of the episode. (The title is “Who Watches the Watchers”, for reference. SMG I'm gonna go over this post in more detail later but impressively almost every assertion you've made in it is outright wrong, other than the direct quotes.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:27
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What SMG claimed and why it is wrongquote:"The Mintakan people Picard talks to ultimately have no real problem believing anything he’s talking about, save for a single ‘crazed fundamentalist’ by the name of Liko. Then, as you note, even Liko has his mind changed pretty quickly." No actually. The "Mintakan people" do not believe picard. Even after his best faith attempt at explaining how his "powers" are merely technology she says NURIA: You have shown me such generosity. I wish my people could share in it. Six Mintakans died in a flood last winter. Four of them children. Would you bring them back to life? PICARD: That is not in my power. NURIA: Why? You restored Liko's life. Did the six who died offend you in some way? Did I offended you? Should I have ordered the death of Troi? Please, you must tell me if there's anything I can do to change your mind. PICARD: I've failed to get through to you, haven't I? Despite all my efforts. Please note that last sentence because it's the one where picard points out that she does actually have a problem believing him. Because she can not comprehend him for what he is, a mortal. Furthermore this exchange OJI: Nuria can't be found. No one knows where she's gone. LIKO: Hali, any sign of Palmer or Riker? HALI: They have escaped us. We searched everywhere. OJI: What do we do now, father? LIKO: We must do as the Picard wishes. Punish those responsible. FENTO: Nuria would not allow us to LIKO: Nuria isn't here. We can't wait. (Liko gestures to Hali for his bow) Note that Hali gives Niko the bow. Hali is ready to believe Niko and we have no reason to believe that the rest of the Mintakans would not follow suit.  Pictured above, Niko slowly convincing the people around him to do something very very bad using only his religious fanaticism and their general susceptibility to the superstitions of their elders. quote:"After a few brief conversations, and showing off his blood, Picard has fully “non-interfered” with these people by teaching them the following: This is true enough except for the way you phrase it. Picard is not under any guise by explaining these things that he is "non-interfering" RIKER: Masquerading as a god? PICARD: Absolutely out of the question. The Prime Directive BARRON: Has already been violated. The damage is done. All we can do now is minimise it. PICARD: By sanctioning their false beliefs? BARRON: By giving them guidelines. Letting them know what the Overseer expects of them. PICARD: Doctor Barron, I cannot, I will not, impose a set of commandments on these people. To do so violates the very essence of the Prime Directive. BARRON: Like it or not, we have rekindled the Mintakans' belief in the Overseer. RIKER: And are you saying that this belief will eventually become a religion? BARRON: It's inevitable. And without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos. PICARD: Horrifying. Doctor Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No! We will find some way to undo the damage we've caused. Number One, tell me about this group's leader. Do note the part where Picard recognizes that any solution will require some degree of interference due to the fact that the prime directive had already been broken. He is not under any kind of illusion about what he is doing nor is he doing it out of some kind of paternalism or to steal their resources. The only reason I bring this up is that in prior conversations you have switched from an argument in which the races being studied are being intentionally deprived of the resource rights to their solar system but when that stops being a convenient reason for the prime directive to be bad it becomes about how the federation isn't giving these people enough agency. Again this entire episode basically exists to put a boot straight to your entire view of the prime directive by pointing out that when given agency to decide whether 'The Picard' (God, in the eyes of these pre-warp people) is a mortal or not their only means of testing it requires direct evidence of his mortality. Hey? What would have happened to Picard if Liko had been a better shot? He'd be dead. The one thing the Federation really can't fix. It wasn't because picard was wrong to attempt to follow the prime directive that he lived it was just dumb luck and frankly I think the exact same circumstances apply on a societal scale with regard to Mintakan and Federation relations, specifically it might be possible nobody has to die in order for both societies to come to a mutual and peaceful understanding but if that's the case it would be moreso to dumb luck than anything else. quote:"But anyways, there are two main points that are missing from your analysis: quote:"2) Why is Picard treating these guys differently from the Bolaarans? The only answer is blunt racism. Wrong wrong wrong. Picard has major issue with teaching them federation ideology. PICARD: We were once as you are now. To study you is to understand ourselves. FENTO: But why did you have to hide yourself from us? LIKO: Because their presence would affect us, just as it affected me. PICARD: It is our highest law that we shall not interfere with other cultures. OJI: Then revealing yourselves was an accident. PICARD: Oh, yes, and now we must leave you. OJI: Why? There's so much you can teach us. PICARD: But that, too, would be interference. You must progress in your own way. NURIA: So we will. You have taught us there is nothing beyond our reach. PICARD: Not even the stars. Picard himself says in this exchange that he would not have interfered at all given the choice. The resemblence to Vulcans has nothing to do with it. They could have called this society "proto ferengi" and it wouldn't matter. If Picard had gotten himself into a mess of trouble in exactly the same way as he did here he likely would have solved it in precisely the same manner, because he had no other choice that wouldn't cause the death of his crew. Edit- Fixed my quote wrapping reignofevil fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 20:58
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CainFortea posted:No, The Federation stops people from treating those cultures as if they were their playthings. It absolutely does not do that, because the Federation does treat those cultures like playthings. Specifically, it treats them like collectable Funko Pops which must under no circumstances be removed from their original packaging lest their value goes down. What it does not treat them like is fellow people, because if you see one of your fellow people suffering and dying, you have an obligation to help them.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:04
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Ferrinus posted:It absolutely does not do that, because the Federation does treat those cultures like playthings. Specifically, it treats them like collectable Funko Pops which must under no circumstances be removed from their original packaging lest their value goes down. I don't disagree with your main point, which is that the federation are being dicks for not being willing to offer help when an entire society is gonna go extinct and whatnot but surely you can see why it might be a little silly to say that the federation is treating people like playthings by leaving them alone entirely to try and preserve their society. The implication being that the way to not treat people like playthings would be to take them out of the box and, well.... play with them...
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Mar 15, 2020 21:12
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Realistically it's a dumb setup. It would be a supersatellite eyeball or an anthropology major would be actively trying to integrate with them a la avatar.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:23
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