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reignofevil posted:I don't disagree with your main point, which is that the federation are being dicks for not being willing to offer help when an entire society is gonna go extinct and whatnot but surely you can see why it might be a little silly to say that the federation is treating people like playthings by leaving them alone entirely to try and preserve their society. The implication being that the way to not treat people like playthings would be to take them out of the box and, well.... play with them... Either of these behaviors are premised on the dehumanization (depersonization, desapientization, whatever) of the less militarily powerful civilization. They're not really people like you or, so of course we'd just be capricious and evil if we interacted with them, and even if we could restrain our basest instincts they'd just be too stupid and savage to react to us properly. Our only recourse to prevent what is effectively cruelty to animals is to seal the aliens away. As SMG has pointed out, spying on people invisibly and only reaching out to help them in circuitous and undetectable ways is also playing god. It'st just the kind of god we ourselves prefer to believe in.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:35
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Personally I take the viewpoint that the federation is spying on all of these pre-warp cultures because someday they would like to know enough about how a society like the Mintakans will progress in order to eventually develop a plan of contact in which the federation has reason to believe it is highly likely that the pre-warp culture will both maintain their unique sense of identity and simultaneously genuinely benefit from the manner of contact. A perfect example of what I would call a failure for a pre-warp society to "genuinely benefit" from federation contact would be Niko himself. If not for the actions of the federation Niko would be dead and so he indisputably benefited from the contact however because it was done in a clumsy manner the federation accidentally woke the sleeping dragon of religious fundamentalism and it had disastrous secondhand consequences which only were mitigated because the federation was very very lucky. Now I recognize that the prime directive does not make any argument in favor of what I am saying here. It is spoken of in absolute terms like it is meant to never change and I will be more than happy to admit that at this time I have no backing for my claim that the federation would like to or someday even might abandon the prime directive once they have learned enough to believe they could do genuine good without accidentally incurring disastrous unintended consequences. I'll happily admit that it will likely take the federation generations or even millennia to have both the technological and sociological understanding necessary to believe they can do these things. But ultimately I do believe that not only do the events of Who Watches the Watchers demonstrate that the federation are not yet ready to take on that responsibility and that they are correct to some extent to believe that their attempting to alter a society in order to make it better fit the picture of what they believe would be a net good would be very dangerous even when it should seem like a no brainer like "would dying of a plague be good or bad for these people" and I genuinely believe that when the federation feels that it could even possibly make those kinds of decisions that they will reconsider the prime directive and via the same legislative process that they passed the law they shall rewrite or revoke it. Again this is mostly just founded in my general understanding of how the federation tries to mitigate harm and solve problems, they themselves as of TNG fully believe that the prime directive is sacrosanct and that some kind of cosmic plan is more important than morality and I disagree with the federation on that point but they are not wrong to recognize that even their best intentions can and do lead to disaster. Edit- Moved some words around to make this flow better reignofevil fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 21:50
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The very idea that generations of spying are necessary in order to develop a plan of contact so that cultural contact doesn't go disastrously is just racism. If you want to establish a relationship with someone, you don't actually have to first stalk them for weeks in order to catalogue all their moods and behaviors so as to be able to perfectly optimize your first conversation. You can just talk to them. The Federation is stuck in US foreign policy wonk mode where it's imperative for us to remember that the mysterious Chinese are obsessed with the untranslatable concept of "face" or that the Russian propensity towards criminality must not be underestimated1. How come they don't also get to secretly study us for years? 1. Okay this one is true Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 22:00
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I don't wanna keep leaning on who watches the watchers but for serious here they try exactly that and it doesn't work. Even if we want to look at that as the writers injecting their own bias into how cultural contacts work and we want to focus on how in our world today when one society with advanced technology contacts the other there has often been a very quick advancement on the part of the society who does not have the advanced technology, within the fictional world of star trek they gave it a non-racist best faith effort to explain that they are no different and no better than the Mintakans. The federation tries to explain in fact that they are essentially the exact same as the Mintakans except their manufacturing process and understanding of the underlying physics of the universe just happens to be more complete. And it doesn't work because the Mintakans have no true point of reference and if you can't relate to knowledge it is very very difficult to genuinely comprehend it. Again no racism is necessary for this were the federation members and the Mintakans in a swapped position culturally the members of the federation would have just as much trouble understanding this perspective.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:07
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The prime directive is just the second amendment of the 24th century.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:09
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No, I don't agree. I know the characters pretend otherwise but the episode plainly does present the Mintakans as morons. Recall Picard's "I've failed to get through to you, haven't I." after his extremely straightforward statement that resurrection isn't within his power. There's plenty of episodes in which the Enterprise crew actually does deal with godlike powers, beings who are as far as above them as they are above the Mintakans, and you know what they don't start superstitiously sacrificing redshirts to Q in hopes that Q will favor them with his blessings. They're coolheaded and rational. Again and again, TNG bears out the idea that aliens are just worse than Starfleet; dumber and more emotional and more likely to fly off the handle or react to things that the audience knows are perfectly ordinary in stupid and fanatical ways.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:13
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I'll definitely concede that TNG fails to hold to its convictions. The fact that the enterprise crew or the federation as a whole never has that kind of response to what are genuinely gods does make the episodes in which the members of the federation are regarded as deities seem much more insincere and that the naivety the Mintakans are portrayed as having could very much be looked at as a racist portrayal in that light.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:20
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The best thing about star trek fandom is how much of the canon is hacked together and retconned in because the fans have little capacity for suspension of disbelief. who do all the aliens look humanoid?   because the costume budget only extends so far, ok? unacceptable ok um because some precursor race seeded the galaxy with humanoid DNAquote your sources just. Ok. *writes The Chase episode*better. Now explain how universal translator works.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:24
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reignofevil posted:What SMG claimed and why it is wrong I’m avoiding the quote-by-quote style of response, but this post will touch on each of your points. The character of Nuria is successfully convinced that Picard is just a mortal person wielding advanced technology, after just a few minutes of conversation. What she believes afterwards is that Picard‘s ‘wonderous’ technology is capable of raising the dead - and, actually, her intuition is correct. Every Federation starship has time-travel capabilities, for example. The transporter kills and then recreates you. Remember that movie Search For Spock? Of course there are all kinds of legal, ethical and philosophical issues around these various cloning techniques that explain why Picard doesn’t want to clone the dead. But the guy in Sickbay’s not even dead yet! Picard could certainly use transporter tech to cleanse the man of any injuries - but this is a tricky moral dilemma to him, for whatever reason (maybe the procedure is unaffordable on an anthropologist’s salary? Maybe it counts as ‘enhancement’ and is illegal?). Whatever his reasons, Picard again quickly convinces Nuria that his technology “can’t” raise the dead by letting her watch a man die in sickbay. So there are two things to note here: 1) Nuria is not at all stupid, backwards or primitive. She easily figures out what’s happening after a few minutes of education. 2) In her naïveté, Nuria unwittingly points out some major failings of Federation ideology. Why is that guy dying? Why doesn’t Picard use the technology to do help them? Are they lesser beings to him? The other guy, Liko, is left to run around and gain supporters while Troi and Riker do their best to gaslight the hell out of him. But, Picard finally comes clean, again, Liko is very quickly convinced. But convinced of what? quote:Picard recognizes that any solution will require some degree of interference due to the fact that the prime directive had already been broken. What I take issue with is this idea of “undoing the damage”. Picard considers it ‘unnatural’ that a guy would start a religion based on an utterly bizarre hallucinatory experience and start questioning his reality and his society. Therefore, to restore a ‘state of nature’, Picard tells them that the objectively correct religion is belief in the Cosmic Plan. This goes well beyond merely bringing things back to status quo. Picard is teaching them Federation values. He even offers up his life for this message: to prove that they are Human Gods. Like, “sorry, we can’t do anything for you; we’re all too human.” Anyway, do you not see the issue here: PICARD: Oh, yes, and now we must leave you. OJI: Why? There's so much you can teach us. PICARD: But that, too, would be interference. You must progress in your own way. NURIA: So we will. You have taught us there is nothing beyond our reach. That’s the paradox of this not-interfering.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:52
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The only entertainment to be gleaned by SMG's walls of text is trying to identify exactly what bits get edited out to support his edgelord stance. Also, since i'm doing that chronological rewatch of all of star trek i'm going to bring up something from a few pages ago. Holodeck creations do not transmit thoughts or emotions or anything to telepaths or empaths. Luaxana Troi is on the holodeck after chasing after Picard, and she's very impressed by one of the characters. "He's strong. I get no thoughts from him at all, nothing. Well i've never known a man so able to keep his true feelings completely hidden. No man has ever been such a mystery to me." She doesn't know he's not a real person.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:05
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“Your Jedi mind tricks don’t work on me.” -not a real person.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:16
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SMG you can dance around the idea of how 'quickly' Niko is convinced but you are deliberately avoiding how he was convinced and the direct consequences.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:18
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Also I can't help but note how your entire tirade about Picard being a christ figure was quietly dropped in favor of some 'I'm a god because of how I can't revive the dead' point. Please try to do better I very much enjoy this kind of discussion because I think that testing and experimenting with the federation's philosophy was exactly the point of TNG, but if I don't feel like you are actually trying to engage in good faith or that you are actually going to defend your positions I'm gonna be inclined to withdraw from the discussion.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:21
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One last thing, little bit of culture for the thread here. But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26
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Mar 16, 2020 00:32
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reignofevil posted:SMG you can dance around the idea of how 'quickly' Niko is convinced but you are deliberately avoiding how he was convinced and the direct consequences. Those are all the same point. I’ll clarify: The entire point of the incarnation, in Christianity, is that God is a man. This is why Picard’s proof that he’s ‘just a man’ doesn’t eliminate any religious connotations for Liko and Nuria. Picard has, like it or not, become a Christ figure. So his challenge is now what to do with this burden of responsibility. Now Christianity, at its most radical, is a belief that God Himself died on the cross - impotent, abject, and suffering - and all that remains is the community of believers, united in the belief that there is no ‘cosmic’ excuse for suffering. Not even human, God is inhuman, abject. So, Picard is absolutely right to choose death. He would be dying for the sins of the Federation, as well as these people who “know not what they do”. It’s the only answer to the dilemma - how to command them to be free. The failure in the episode is that Picard doesn’t die. This Christ escapes His crucifixion, and fucks off into the sky, teaching that there is an excuse for suffering: you are part of History, part of Evolution, etc. “You must progress in your own way,” which means “no handouts.” Picard turns into a bad Christ. Now, you’ve of the opinion that Christianity is just too risky; the primitives are just too stupid; they’ll be confused by technology and shoot arrows at you. But again: Liko and Nuria aren’t confused by technology; their assessment of Picard’s abilities is fairly accurate. They’re confused about why Picard isn’t helping them. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Mar 16, 2020 |
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Mar 16, 2020 02:53
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I'll think on that and see what I come around to. Thank you very much for clarifying I really do appreciate it.
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Mar 16, 2020 03:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Those are all the same point. Or, he's not a christ figure at all.
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Mar 16, 2020 03:15
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I have no idea how George Takei was able to deliver the line "Captain, there are Klingons around Uranus" without cracking a smile
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Mar 16, 2020 03:16
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Deep Space 9 is interesting because the writers made the bajorans a composite of all the worst things about people, especially through the usual star trek lens, but then tried to portray them as a sort of protagonist, which never made any sense until you realize they aren't actually the protagonists, and the federation isn't the 'good guys' in the show. Violent, xenophobic, ignorant, superstitious, dishonest, un-egalitarian, etc
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Mar 16, 2020 04:11
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CainFortea posted:Or, he's not a christ figure at all. Ok, again: imagine that you’re watching a very didactic TV show. In this show, we have a bit of dialogue between two characters. They are Barron (an anthropologist) and Picard (a spaceman who’s been mistaken for God). Because the show is very didactic, each character stands for a single specific idea. Picard says he doesn’t want to be God, but Barron says that Picard has to be God because he already is. Because the people believe he is God, Picard is their God, for all intents and purposes. (Even if Picard does nothing, he will be a silent, absent God.) So, the dilemma Picard faces is how to be God and man simultaneously. How can he act as God and give guidance from above, while ensuring that the people are free of his influence? Ultimately, his solution is to sacrifice himself. Only through the death of God can there be existential freedom. (But there’s a mix-up, he doesn’t die, and he instead just teaches the people about obeying The Cosmic Plan.)
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Mar 16, 2020 04:16
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hakimashou posted:Deep Space 9 is interesting because the writers made the bajorans a composite of all the worst things about people, especially through the usual star trek lens, but then tried to portray them as a sort of protagonist, which never made any sense until you realize they aren't actually the protagonists, and the federation isn't the 'good guys' in the show. The whole arc of TOS Federation being earnest amateurs on the galactic stage, to TNG where they start believing their own hype and slip into decadence, to DS9 where corruption sets in, is really quite well done. Voyager being a "what if we removed these people from the tether and resources of the Federation" is an interesting side story, but removed from the main arc. We don't talk about Enterprise.
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Mar 16, 2020 04:22
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hakimashou posted:Deep Space 9 is interesting because the writers made the bajorans a composite of all the worst things about people, especially through the usual star trek lens, but then tried to portray them as a sort of protagonist, which never made any sense until you realize they aren't actually the protagonists, and the federation isn't the 'good guys' in the show. Thing is the Bajorans are also a stand-in for oppressed peoples trying to find their feet and suspicious of outsiders for good reason- oppression doesn't bring out the best in people. They kinda dropped the ball on the characterisation of other Bajorans besides Kira, but people forget one of her first actions was calling out Bashir for treating it like a grand adventure when she's trying to fix up her broken homeworld. And kind of the whole arc, especially Kira's, is that the Cardassians end up not that different from the Bajorans, and it's only through accident of history they were even able to ever portray themselves as the superior civilisation.
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Mar 16, 2020 07:14
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Mar 16, 2020 07:21
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Kind of the issue is that you only ever really see the Bajorans either when they're being a problem or they have some wacky ceremony going on, or in relation to the occupation, and even in-universe they're said to be kinda boring on their own. Leeta is probably the only 'ordinary' Bajoran we see a lot of, and that aspect of her kinda gets overshadowed by her being a comical ditz. (That said, you can see why she gets along with Rom)
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Mar 16, 2020 10:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
No, the only dilemma is that the best way to mitigate the damage already done is to break the prime directive. He very specifically doesn't want to be God and anything simultaneously. His best option is to be invisible to those people, but if that's not an option at least convincing them of the truth.
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Mar 16, 2020 16:14
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CainFortea posted:No, the only dilemma is that the best way to mitigate the damage already done is to break the prime directive. He very specifically doesn't want to be God and anything simultaneously. His best option is to be invisible to those people, but if that's not an option at least convincing them of the truth. That’s just rephrasing what I already wrote into less specific language. “Convincing them of the truth” is giving them guidance. That’s exactly what Barron wanted: Barron: Without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos. Picard disagrees with Barron. Picard absolutely does not want to give them guidance: Picard: You are asking me ... to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No!!! This “no!!!” is why Picard tries some alternatives, but is ultimately left with no choice but to sacrifice himself. Death is the only way to free the people of his influence. That’s Picard’s ‘character arc’ and the central real-world idea (Christianity) being explored through the conceit of space travel. It’s akin to the blatant allegory of The Day The Earth Stood Still. Now, we can criticize how the episode deals with this real-world topic: The ending is a cop-out, because Picard survives and ends up indulging in well-intentioned interference, yet nobody cares. Teaching a Bronze Age society a linear theory of history is the action of a benevolent God. Picard is acting like an Ancient Alien, exactly as Barron wanted, yet there are inexplicably no consequences. Additionally: once Nuria finds out that the spacemen can die, she suddenly loses interest in all the other technology. This is a contrivance to avoid the full implications of the story: Picard (maybe) can’t raise the dead, but he absolutely does have the technology to prevent future catastrophic flooding. That’s not an unreasonable demand. Plus, the Mintakans are now freed of their religion, good friends with Picard, and de facto Federation citizens, why is there still a need to remain separate? In the span of like one day, the Prime Directive is reduced to a pointless formality. If the episode followed through with its implications, then we would have Picard dead and/or the Prime Directive directly challenged by a high-ranking Starfleet officer. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 16, 2020 |
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Mar 16, 2020 18:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Death is the only way to free the people of his influence. Except that isn't true. He didn't die. And these people were as free from his influence as is possible. They are not de facto federation citizens, I doubt if they ever talk with Picard again, and they are like, 20 people on an entire planet of millions if not billions. If the prime directive was the end all be all, the best move would have never to have studied them in the first place. Failing that, once things went sideways, the best move would have been to beam an assault team down to the surface and kill everyone in that town, and make it look like disease did it. Then wipe out the physical evidence of the duck blind ever being there.
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Mar 16, 2020 18:13
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CainFortea posted:He didn't die. And these people were as free from his influence as is possible. False. Picard teaches Nuria to strive to achieve space travel: Nuria: You have taught us there is nothing beyond our reach. Picard teaches her a ridiculous amount of stuff about Federation society. That’s a huge amount of interference, yet you are okay with it because it’s well-intentioned: CainFortea posted:the best way to mitigate the damage already done is to break the prime directive. Your stance is that, once the Prime Directive is broken, the person who broke it is free to indulge in as much well-intentioned interference as they want in order to “fix” the society in question. So, you’ve unwittingly conceded that the Prime Directive is so easily circumvented as to be a near-worthless formality. A Federation starship captain can fly down and teach Federation values to a primitive civilization with absolutely no consequences. He can help the society, and there is no inevitable disaster after all. I agree with that, but let’s take it a step further: just give them votes.
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Mar 16, 2020 18:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:False. Picard teaches Nuria to strive to achieve space travel: I didn't say there was no influence. I know you like to edit quotes from the show to support your "ideas" but c'mon. quote:Your stance is that, once the Prime Directive is broken, the person who broke it is free to indulge in as much well-intentioned interference as they want in order to “fix” the society in question. No. That is not my stance at all. My stance is that Picard picked the least worst option that impacted the fewest number of people. He was not free to meddle as much as he wanted. If in fact he was like "hey, people think i'm a god that's pretty cool" and went around teleporting and smiting and such he'd have had the hammer brought down on him.
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Mar 16, 2020 19:08
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Picard in no way picked the "least worst" option. The actual best option would be to treat the Mintakans as equals and give them the same protection from flood, disease, etc. as is enjoyed by any Federation citizen. What Picard did instead was tell them that they can become as rich as he is if they just work hard before loving off.
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Mar 16, 2020 19:31
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Ferrinus posted:Picard in no way picked the "least worst" option. The actual best option would be to treat the Mintakans as equals and give them the same protection from flood, disease, etc. as is enjoyed by any Federation citizen. What Picard did instead was tell them that they can become as rich as he is if they just work hard before loving off. nah (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 16, 2020 20:23
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CainFortea posted:My stance is that Picard picked the least worst option that impacted the fewest number of people. Leaving aside that this is obviously not the least-worst option, you are asserting that the Mintakans are still suffering negative 'impact'* at the end of the episode, after Picard leaves. If so: -What are those negative impacts? -Why didn't Picard stick around and continue to "repair the damage"? If there is no major negative impact, and solutions can be found, then there's ultimately no reason for the Prime Directive. *One of the big issues that affects people's judgement is that the actions are framed as "interference", "impact", damage", and so-on. It shows the pervasiveness of Federation ideology and belief in The Cosmic Plan.
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Mar 16, 2020 20:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Leaving aside that this is obviously not the least-worst option, you are asserting that the Mintakans are still suffering negative 'impact'* at the end of the episode, after Picard leaves. If so: The crux of the matter is that the Federation already is composed of gods- beings which possess the potential for agency. So we're really discussing how they should act, and the show presents the ideology which guides their actions and non-actions as good and the result of wisdom gained through experience. But it is not really either of those things. Picard is confronted with the contradictions of Federation ideology, but as cool as Jean-Luc Picard is, he's not Christ or Buddha, he's a military leader acting as a representative the local hegemonic state. So he, with complete sincerity, reproduces the very conditions which produced the contradictions he encounters. e: it should be noted that God (beings which could destroy the ship and crew on a whim) appearing to test the Enterprise crew is a surprisingly regular occurrence in TNG. This most explicitly takes the form of Q, who mainly trolls the crew and sends the Borg against the Federation as a test of worth. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Mar 16, 2020 |
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Mar 16, 2020 22:11
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Hodgepodge posted:The crux of the matter is that the Federation already is composed of gods- beings which possess the potential for agency. So we're really discussing how they should act, and the show presents the ideology which guides their actions and non-actions as good and the result of wisdom gained through experience. Speaking of Q, despite him being able fix all the ills and maladies all of humanity continue to suffer from with a mere snap of the finger, he doesn't. And nobody asks or begs him to. In fact they think he's kind of a pain in the rear end and wish he would just leave most of the time. So again we presume that the "lesser" civilizations would get on bended knee and entreat the Federation to use their magic powers to Save them, when they're just as likely to say "gently caress off spaceman, we don't want your help" as the Enterprise does with Q.
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Mar 16, 2020 23:14
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To be fair to the Bajorans all those negative traits they have like the caste system, religious fundamentalism, etc. are specifically portrayed as challenges to be overcome, not things to be celebrated.
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Mar 17, 2020 01:39
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Maybe your pas are all just weak.
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Mar 17, 2020 02:18
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I wonder how much it’s hosed up the Mintakans to know that they are subjects of anthropological study. They now know for a fact that - at any given moment - invisible men could be watching them piss, shower, etc. And there’s nothing they can do to stop it because, y’know, they’re noncitizens. They have no right to privacy or whatever. But I’m sure living in a panopticon will have no psychological effects lol. Hodgepodge posted:e: it should be noted that God (beings which could destroy the ship and crew on a whim) appearing to test the Enterprise crew is a surprisingly regular occurrence in TNG. This most explicitly takes the form of Q, who mainly trolls the crew and sends the Borg against the Federation as a test of worth. Fans often claim that there is no coherent logic to Star Trek because it’s episodic and written by different people, but the only remotely interesting thing about the series is in how specific concepts and images continually recur. In this case, themes and imagery from “Who Watches The Watchers” are brought back in the movie First Contact - which is a time travel narrative, where the characters fight to ‘preserve the timeline’ and ensure that history never changes. Suddenly a belief in The Cosmic Plan, and a supreme law against changing anything, makes a lot more sense. In other words, the Prime Directive was evidently not inspired by the historical plight of native peoples or whatever, but by Federation experiments in time-travel - and a consequent belief in a singular ‘safe’ timeline from which we must never deviate. Hence, The Cosmic Plan. Picard: The Second World War, although disastrous, did end with the United States taking its place as a dominant world power and cultural influence in the second half of the twentieth century. Additionally, that war was a catalyst of technological advancement. Developments in rocketry and fission resonate on into the twenty fourth century.
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Mar 17, 2020 02:35
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That makes a kind of sense, the dude who basically started the Federation did so after an experience with time travelers trying to stop the past from changing. In Deep Space Nine there are Time Cops who if you travel back in time they grill you when you get back to make sure you didn't change anything
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Mar 17, 2020 02:39
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Does Kirk not technically break the prime directive by introducing himself to Guinan? Even though she is an alien, I guess, she did use her old connection with him to get a job on a spaceship. points off for vortex nepotism I guess.
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Mar 17, 2020 02:43
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That's not even exclusive to Star Trek, the vast bulk of time travel stories focus on just bringing back the original timeline after someone hosed it up. I think the only one I've seen where the protagonist decided to go back after fixing the timeline and try creating a better world (and risk their entire existence being wiped along with everybody and everything they knew) was Blackadder Goes Forth.
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Mar 17, 2020 03:13
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