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You mean Back and Forth? Ah, the Blackadder 40,000 ending.
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Mar 17, 2020 03:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I wonder how much it’s hosed up the Mintakans to know that they are subjects of anthropological study. Ultimately what the prime directive is about is self preservation. Preserve the timeline that created us. Don't uplift aliens because they might change things (whether for better or worse), and change is to be feared and discouraged at a fundamental level. It's an extremely conservative stance for a seemingly "progressive" society. It's no wonder that by DS9 the Federation had outright regressed into xenophobia and protectionism.
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Mar 17, 2020 03:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:They now know for a fact that - at any given moment - invisible men could be watching them piss, shower, etc. And there’s nothing they can do to stop it because, y’know, they’re noncitizens. They have no right to privacy or whatever. Except they were shown the duck blind, which was in a cliff face and not in a urinal.
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Mar 17, 2020 05:52
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CainFortea posted:Except they were shown the duck blind, which was in a cliff face and not in a urinal. you don't know that, everyone could have been taking a big 'ol piss on that rock
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Mar 17, 2020 06:09
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CainFortea posted:Except they were shown the duck blind, which was in a cliff face and not in a urinal. I guess we can add ‘panopticon’ to the list of concepts you’re having trouble with. Once you’ve introduced this “duck blind” concept to people, they’ll be imagining it everywhere - and regulating their behaviours accordingly. Finger Prince posted:Ultimately what the prime directive is about is self preservation. Preserve the timeline that created us. Don't uplift aliens because they might change things (whether for better or worse), and change is to be feared and discouraged at a fundamental level. It's an extremely conservative stance for a seemingly "progressive" society. It's no wonder that by DS9 the Federation had outright regressed into xenophobia and protectionism. Right; Picard’s stance that World War II was worth it to boost the American aerospace industry is of course directly linked to his weird refusal to ever stop a pre-warp Holocaust. But this isn’t just about preserving the past; this belief in The Cosmic Plan extends into the far future as well. The chain of associations links that fear of change all the way to the enslavement of the exocomps. It’s all remarkably consistent: “Latent Image” as a remake/sequel of “Measure Of A Man” deals with the same mind-violation inflicted on the ‘pre-warp’ girl in “Pen Pals.” Holographic people are then shown to have replaced exocomps as slave labour in the mining facilities. It’s all part of the Plan.
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Mar 17, 2020 06:50
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You mean Back and Forth? Ah, the Blackadder 40,000 ending. A 40k/Blackadder crossover could only end in Exterminatus
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Mar 17, 2020 07:15
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2house2fly posted:That makes a kind of sense, the dude who basically started the Federation did so after an experience with time travelers trying to stop the past from changing. In Deep Space Nine there are Time Cops who if you travel back in time they grill you when you get back to make sure you didn't change anything What a hilarious concept! By changing the past the time cops would very likely be entirely ignorant of any manner of change because anything that changed would just be 'history' from their perspective!
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Mar 17, 2020 13:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I guess we can add ‘panopticon’ to the list of concepts you’re having trouble with. lol at you tryin to throw shade about word meanings. You specifically. Anyway, unless your bathroom is bigger than most houses you don't have to worry about it and those bronze age proto-vulcans are smart enough to realize that. Also the fact that they watched the starfleet people remove the duckblind saying "we're not going to do this anymore".
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Mar 17, 2020 15:17
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If WW2 was a key part of the sequence of events that led to the technology that reduced scarcity and made time travel possible, it's probably best not to go back and muck around with things in a way that could stop it all from happening. And if you start going into theoretical obligation to the infinite people of the past who could possibly be saved with future technology, then you might as well argue about the infinite people of futures that you'll be preventing with whatever you just did, and it's questionable whether the philosophies or perspectives that guide a society would still exist after removing its history. It's a complicated thing that you're best not mucking with. The time cops in DS9 have no real power and probably blinked out of existence in the next time travel schenanigans anyways. Filthy Hans posted:A 40k/Blackadder crossover could only end in Exterminatus It got pretty close in the Christmas special. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfYx_013UuY
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Mar 17, 2020 15:34
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SlothfulCobra posted:
thank you, I never knew this existed
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Mar 17, 2020 16:07
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I for one am against all the nazi moon science, despite all the episodes of star trek it caused.
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Mar 17, 2020 16:55
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CainFortea posted:lol at you tryin to throw shade about word meanings. You specifically. Why would they believe them? You discover that someone who's for all purposes a wizard has been spying on you. They can turn invisible, teleport around, teleport YOU around, brainwipe you... finally you have a talk with him and he's like well you were an object of scientific curiosity but don't worry I won't do it any more. Then he vanishes by magic. You'd never feel safe again!
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Mar 17, 2020 18:17
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CainFortea posted:Also the fact that they watched the starfleet people remove the duckblind saying "we're not going to do this anymore". Nobody in the episode says the spying will stop. Picard even asks Laforge to put the hologram back up. So that's the opposite of a fact. You invented the quote, not even paraphrasing any dialogue.
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Mar 17, 2020 18:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You have made repeated (direct and indirect) reference to this notion of “actual presentation”, which is evidently just a type of essentialism based in hypercredulity.
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Mar 17, 2020 19:00
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Ferrinus posted:Why would they believe them? Because that's what happens in the show? Like, I get that you want it to not be that way, but it is that way.
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Mar 17, 2020 19:02
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CainFortea posted:Because that's what happens in the show? Like, I get that you want it to not be that way, but it is that way. No, what happens in the show is that a few members of the Mintakan society say they believe them. Even if those few characters are telling the truth (and what, are they going to mouth off to the wizard who could kill them instantly if displeased?), what about everybody else in their society? Everyone else on their planet who hears the story of the encounter? This isn't actually about gods and devils, it's about the NSA.
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Mar 17, 2020 19:29
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CainFortea posted:Because that's what happens in the show? Like, I get that you want it to not be that way, but it is that way. The Mintakans are not informed that the observation will cease. You’re imagining that it occurred offscreen. Why would the anthropologists cease their research?
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Mar 17, 2020 19:49
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Ferrinus posted:No, what happens in the show is that a few members of the Mintakan society say they believe them. Even if those few characters are telling the truth (and what, are they going to mouth off to the wizard who could kill them instantly if displeased?), what about everybody else in their society? Everyone else on their planet who hears the story of the encounter? No one else in their society even knows what happened. And again, you are projecting your own edgelord fanfic onto what is actually presented to us. There is nothing in that episode that suggests they aren't telling the truth.
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Mar 17, 2020 20:51
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CainFortea posted:There is nothing in that episode that suggests they aren't telling the truth. Post the line of dialogue where they “tell the truth” about ceasing all observation.
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Mar 17, 2020 21:16
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To help the bajorans with the newfound revelation that their gods were real, and living sixty feet above them in space, the federation and keiko o brien imposted a policy of strict atheism in the classroom. Disgraceful. Miles was drunk again, of course, and stuck crammed in the elevator shaft.
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Mar 17, 2020 21:38
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Well, he was a union man.
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Mar 17, 2020 21:43
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CainFortea posted:No one else in their society even knows what happened. And again, you are projecting your own edgelord fanfic onto what is actually presented to us. There is nothing in that episode that suggests they aren't telling the truth. Uh, but they're going to, because they have no reason to keep it secret and in fact lots of reasons to spread the knowledge around. They've effectively been given a mission by Picard to join his people among the stars X generations from now - they'd drat well better spread the word that space travel is possible through technological means! And unless every Mintakan who was present for the episode joins - and holds perfectly to - a pact of mutual secrecy, the story of the invisible spaceman spies is going to percolate outwards through Mintakan society no matter what anyone does. poo poo, the Mintakans would do well to get out ahead of the story breaking on its own and explain very clearly and carefully that they met some regular people from space, or else Picard is going to have spawned several new religions! So how will they ever know again that they're not being spied on by aliens? What if Picard was lying? What if Picard simply never said he'd stop? What if Picard was telling the truth, but then some other Starfleet ship gets assigned to study the Mintakans years or decades down the line? What if a different empire that Picard doesn't answer to does it? The Mintakans can never trust they're not under surveillance, or worse, again. No one will protect them because, as far as spacemen are concerned, the Mintakans have no rights.
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Mar 17, 2020 22:11
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I dunno if the assertion that the Mintakans wouldn't mouth off to Picard holds water considering they had already shot him with a bow and suffered no real consequences.
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Mar 18, 2020 07:06
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Yeah, nobody who's actually read the bible is going to think people aren't gonna get snippy with their god for whatever reason.
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Mar 18, 2020 08:16
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There are people who will dumbly do exactly what the alien says, people who will dumbly shoot the alien with their gun, and no middle ground.
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Mar 18, 2020 08:18
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reignofevil posted:I dunno if the assertion that the Mintakans wouldn't mouth off to Picard holds water considering they had already shot him with a bow and suffered no real consequences. Mintakans: Picard, you dick! We’re very upset. What you’re doing to us is extremely not-cool. Picard: Ah, it seems that I have once again failed; the Mintakans are still locked in the grip of primitive superstition. Doctor Crusher, can we develop a procedure to render the Mintakans more naturally docile and agreeable? Crusher: I have one ready to go. Picard: Excellent. Make it so.
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Mar 18, 2020 17:53
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Mar 18, 2020 18:09
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Hate to disrupt your actual fanfic, but I just remembered a big thing that gives me the creeps about Star Trek. The documented but not really explicable popularity with pedophiles. It's an old article, so things may have changed and it may have all been some kind of coincidence, but it sure is creepy.
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Mar 18, 2020 18:10
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If fully erasing memories is an acceptable technique for restoring ‘natural development’, why not more subtle alterations?
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Mar 18, 2020 18:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If fully erasing memories is an acceptable technique for restoring ‘natural development’, why not more subtle alterations? Because it didn't happen.
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Mar 18, 2020 18:15
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CainFortea posted:Because it didn't happen. Yes it has, because the precedent is set. Picard has no issue with modifying people’s brains, or even just killing them: Crusher: It was either bring him aboard or let him die. Picard: Then why didn't you let him die? Crusher: Because we were responsible for his injuries. Picard: I'm not sure that I concur with that reasoning, Doctor. But now that he's here, you must remove all memory of his encounter with the away team. With this established, there is clearly no limit to what Picard is allowed to do to restore the Mintakan’s natural state of innocence. He only stops short of outright murder. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 18:23
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reignofevil posted:I dunno if the assertion that the Mintakans wouldn't mouth off to Picard holds water considering they had already shot him with a bow and suffered no real consequences. "They" hadn't. One of them had. A wizard showing up to gently caress around with you is going to provoke an entire range of different responses, from murderous defiance to outright worship, but what it absolutely 100% won't do is leave things as they are. That is, after all, the basis of the Prime Directive - no loving around, because there will inevitably be consequences outside Starfleet's control. No matter what, Picard has left behind a society, soon to be a planet, of people who know for a fact that invisible spacemen could be watching them at any time.
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Mar 18, 2020 18:43
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Ferrinus posted:"They" hadn't. One of them had. A wizard showing up to gently caress around with you is going to provoke an entire range of different responses, from murderous defiance to outright worship, but what it absolutely 100% won't do is leave things as they are. That is, after all, the basis of the Prime Directive - no loving around, because there will inevitably be consequences outside Starfleet's control. No matter what, Picard has left behind a society, soon to be a planet, of people who know for a fact that invisible spacemen could be watching them at any time. Right; what this shows is that the Federation does believe in good outcomes. If the Mintakans are ‘naturally peaceful’, then a state of peace must be restored. (For a ‘naturally violent’ race, violence must be restored). Barron: They are not normally a violent people but these are extraordinary circumstances. They're trying to comprehend what they believe to be a god. [...] And, without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos. The consequence facing the Mintakans is specifically identified as a likely “degeneration into chaos”. So secretly tinkering with their brain chemistry to make them docile is evidently ok. We can also picture an alternate scenario where Picard goes to the Holy War And Inquisition Planet, unwittingly causes world peace, and must fight to restore the Dark Ages.
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Mar 18, 2020 19:13
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Ferrinus posted:"They" hadn't. One of them had. A wizard showing up to gently caress around with you is going to provoke an entire range of different responses, from murderous defiance to outright worship, but what it absolutely 100% won't do is leave things as they are. That is, after all, the basis of the Prime Directive - no loving around, because there will inevitably be consequences outside Starfleet's control. No matter what, Picard has left behind a society, soon to be a planet, of people who know for a fact that invisible spacemen could be watching them at any time. Okay one of them had. So perhaps one of them could mouth off to picard much like how one of them shot him. I mean I could just as easily point out how the Mintakan's had been shown to be unwilling to prevent the religious fanatic from shooting picard, I could point out how the moment where the one Mintakan handed Niko the bow it suddenly went from being a singular person acting to a group action which would absolutely justify the word they but honestly I don't think it changes anything the fact of the matter is that mouthing off to someone is really not something you worry much about when you've already shot that same person and he wasn't overly upset with you. I think if any one of them had wanted to mouth off they absolutely would have.
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Mar 18, 2020 20:48
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 Pictured above: Very possibly terrified Mintakans. Note the big goofy smile on the one in the background. That same Mintakan would moments later offer Picard an honorary gift. Probably some Mintakan way of saying "gently caress off invisible sky wizard we're never going to be able to take a poo poo without fear again" 
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Mar 18, 2020 20:57
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I kind of just half paid attention to this episode, but I don't remember anything suggesting they messed with their brains
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Mar 18, 2020 21:31
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The woman here is played by bobby hill.
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Mar 18, 2020 21:42
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reignofevil posted:Okay one of them had. So perhaps one of them could mouth off to picard much like how one of them shot him. I mean I could just as easily point out how the Mintakan's had been shown to be unwilling to prevent the religious fanatic from shooting picard, I could point out how the moment where the one Mintakan handed Niko the bow it suddenly went from being a singular person acting to a group action which would absolutely justify the word they but honestly I don't think it changes anything the fact of the matter is that mouthing off to someone is really not something you worry much about when you've already shot that same person and he wasn't overly upset with you. I think if any one of them had wanted to mouth off they absolutely would have. There is a wide range of possible responses to being visited by a godlike being, and those responses are only loosely connected to whether you actually trust what the being is saying to you after the fact. Like, let's say they not only didn't believe that Picard (or the rest of Picard's society) would stop spying on them, but they were willing to tell that to him to his face, demanding that he cease all study of their planet. And let's further imagine that he says okay, wish granted, I solemnly swear that neither I nor anyone else from space will ever invisibly spy on you ever again. (Note that this does not happen in the episode; he does not, AFAIK, make any promise to cease study as opposed to active interference) How could they hold him to that promise? How would they know if he broke it? They never, ever will. You can't unring that bell. These people are forever after at Starfleet's mercy - and know it in their bones.
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Mar 18, 2020 22:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right; what this shows is that the Federation does believe in good outcomes. If the Mintakans are ‘naturally peaceful’, then a state of peace must be restored. (For a ‘naturally violent’ race, violence must be restored). So it turns out the language of pop sociology in the 80s tends to be paternalistic, overly reductive, and somewhat racist. I think the proto-vulcan bit that they said at the beginning was specifically to imply that they were on the same developmental path that the Vulcans were on, and in many ways Star Trek likes to imply that Vulcans are mostly superior to humans, with better science and no "irrational superstitions", just perfectly rational superstitions like the immortal soul, psychic powers that interact with auras, and the idea that emotion will totally destroy you and must be purged with elaborate rituals. Or maybe they're some lost colony or group of Vulcans from long ago like the Romulans were. Vulcans got around back in the day and didn't keep any records to show anybody. SuperMechagodzilla posted:We can also picture an alternate scenario where Picard goes to the Holy War And Inquisition Planet, unwittingly causes world peace, and must fight to restore the Dark Ages. There was that episode of DS9 where they happened upon a planet locked in an immortal war and wound up leaving the bajoran dalai lama there to find peace. I don't know where that stands with the prime directive. Maybe they were exempt because the planet was a penal colony.
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Mar 18, 2020 22:00
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Ferrinus posted:There is a wide range of possible responses to being visited by a godlike being, and those responses are only loosely connected to whether you actually trust what the being is saying to you after the fact. Like, let's say they not only didn't believe that Picard (or the rest of Picard's society) would stop spying on them, but they were willing to tell that to him to his face, demanding that he cease all study of their planet. And let's further imagine that he says okay, wish granted, I solemnly swear that neither I nor anyone else from space will ever invisibly spy on you ever again. (Note that this does not happen in the episode; he does not, AFAIK, make any promise to cease study as opposed to active interference) Okay sure but let's imagine for a second that actually they don't mind at all and honestly given the general lack of physical evidence there is good reason to believe that within a few generations nobody would even be able to prove it was more than a fairy tale. I don't necessarily mean this statement as 'actually these are the facts' but I mean heck while we're imagining, why not?
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Mar 18, 2020 22:24
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