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My sweet summer child.
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Mar 5, 2020 02:27
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| # ? Oct 4, 2024 05:50 |
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Chillin in the personal vineyard, with my team of manservants: “Please don’t infer anything about my socioeconomic status from this!”
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Mar 5, 2020 02:34
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You're pretty clueless if you think those Romulans are his hired manservants.
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Mar 5, 2020 02:42
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Also, you'd know when a Star Trek writer was trying to draw the viewer to a conclusion about 24th century Earth because it would be done with the grace and subtly of a baboon hitting you over the head with a giant bone.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:02
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a babone, if you will
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Mar 5, 2020 03:15
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:Also, you'd know when a Star Trek writer was trying to draw the viewer to a conclusion about 24th century Earth because it would be done with the grace and subtly of a baboon hitting you over the head with a giant bone. Roddenberry was trying to create a utopia by merely taking the United States of the 1990s and substracting the things he didn’t like. For example, Roddenberry didn’t like lawyers or criminals, so he proposed that that people deemed ‘criminals’ should be lobotomized without trial. But that didn’t end up in the show. Who cares what they’re trying to do? There is no “try”.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:18
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Wow, at first I was like "This person can't be as bad as Squizzle suggested" but i've just seen "This thing that I heard about that didn't make it in the show is cannon" so welp.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:22
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For some reason they all look at me funny when I suggest the pope should be cannonized.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:30
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CainFortea posted:Wow, at first I was like "This person can't be as bad as Squizzle suggested" but i've just seen "This thing that I heard about that didn't make it in the show is cannon" so welp. I wrote that the creators’ intentions are irrelevant, because their actions are what matter. Canon is a fake idea.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:They are people. Finger Prince posted:I think the most significant conclusion of this thread is that Star Trek is a fun, campy sci fi serial with a bit of light moralizing thrown in, and trying to shoehorn deep significance from its very superficially written universe is what's all hosed up. To paraphrase what someone once said about what made Babylon 5 great; "if I'm going to sit through an hour of moralizing, at least give me a rad space battle at the end of it". Maybe why people think star trek is all hosed up is they were pretty light on the rad space battles so for some reason people took the show more seriously. At least you could count on Kirk for some rollicking fisticuffs.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:35
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CainFortea posted:Wow, at first I was like "This person can't be as bad as Squizzle suggested" but i've just seen "This thing that I heard about that didn't make it in the show is cannon" so welp. SMG's deal seems to be that everything that's in the text counts, intended or not. Unintentional things can inform setting and character, and since they often end up in there thanks to ideological blind spots or unquestioned assumptions they can add a surprising amount of nuance. Ideally this can be applied to redemptively interpret a work as having a message advocating radical Christian communism, which doesn't seem to be something that's evident in Star Trek
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Mar 5, 2020 03:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Dismissing major aspects of the narrative to merely bad writing is no different from attributing them to magic. By the point of DS9, they were no longer trying to make depictions of the Federation as some kind of Utopia, just a somewhat better than now world with its own problems.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:50
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2house2fly posted:SMG's deal seems to be that everything that's in the text counts, intended or not. Unintentional things can inform setting and character, and since they often end up in there thanks to ideological blind spots or unquestioned assumptions they can add a surprising amount of nuance. Ideally this can be applied to redemptively interpret a work as having a message advocating radical Christian communism, which doesn't seem to be something that's evident in Star Trek Zane fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Mar 5, 2020 |
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Mar 5, 2020 03:55
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Squizzle posted:the picards make such incredibly good wine that the people of earth have decided its a good use of the land to enable them to keep making it as long as they are still willing. people are there to help w the harvest and winemaking because they want to meet picard himself, want to enjoy some demanding but not exceptionally strenuous outdoor activity, and/or want to learn how to make wine And then they bus home to their single unit iso cube.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I fuckin’ hate Star Trek, but I nonetheless have difficulty imagining that the writers are that incompetent. You know, I'm starting to wonder if you've ever even watched Star trek.
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Mar 5, 2020 04:03
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Floor is lava posted:Wasn't there an episode about how warp drives were permanently polluting the galaxy? About a season later they mentioned that they'd reconfigured the warp fields so that they wouldn't damage anything, would indeed start repairing the damage, and that they could do subspace burnouts again.
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Mar 5, 2020 04:13
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SlothfulCobra posted:By the point of DS9, they were no longer trying to make depictions of the Federation as some kind of Utopia, just a somewhat better than now world with its own problems. I recall some dialogue in an episode I watched, among the non-Federation characters (Cardassians and Ferengi I think?) about how unpleasant and insidious they find the Federation. Maybe this was "villain" dialogue but the characters seemed fairly sympathetic otherwise
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Mar 5, 2020 04:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Roddenberry was trying to create a utopia by merely taking the United States of the 1990s and substracting the things he didn’t like. roddenberry died in 1991
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Mar 5, 2020 04:28
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CainFortea posted:Wow, at first I was like "This person can't be as bad as Squizzle suggested" but i've just seen "This thing that I heard about that didn't make it in the show is cannon" so welp. they arent bad but you have to treat them like ornate gimmick posters. their posts simulate real engagement but they are ultimately shtick, highly refined
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Mar 5, 2020 04:32
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2house2fly posted:I recall some dialogue in an episode I watched, among the non-Federation characters (Cardassians and Ferengi I think?) about how unpleasant and insidious they find the Federation. Maybe this was "villain" dialogue but the characters seemed fairly sympathetic otherwise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk It's a pretty good character moment. Not really sure what the Cardassian has against root beer, since Kanar is literally mostly corn syrup. The subtext is creepy, since it's not just that the Federation is the only group that stands a chance against the Dominion, it's that ultimately the Federation's culture will be superior to theirs, since while they despise it, the alternatives are unbearable. It's further underscored when Quark sees his brother be converted by the Federation's culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJamIRDPpzU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOrzcsvxOJI It's not particularly wrong the assessment that Ferengi society is mostly a bad thing, it's just weird that it's such a cultural supremacism thing. It really shows the point where exploration becomes manifest destiny.
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Mar 5, 2020 05:19
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Ds9 is about the federation being the bad guys. They side with the bajorans against the cardassians because bajorans look more like humans. You even have starfleet officers using ethnic slurs about cardassians.
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Mar 5, 2020 05:30
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hakimashou posted:Ds9 is about the federation being the bad guys. They side with the bajorans against the cardassians because bajorans look more like humans. please ds9 is how americans are the good guys and nothing can be better... forever the cardassians and ferengi are just liberal bureaucrats and libertarians who haven't jumped on board with the newly reimagined "federation as good fascists" of course, the fascism is only good because of heroic, principled folk joining the military and knowing where to draw the line.... folk like you, perhaps?
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Mar 5, 2020 05:37
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Zane posted:what needs does such a simulacrum 'essentially' possess if both the imperative towards and the fulfillment of these needs can be freely (re)programmed? I think you’re a bit confused here. You can ‘reprogram’ a human to starve to death (e.g. anorexia), but that doesn’t contradict that humans require food to survive and stay healthy. Needing food remains a part of the species-being of humanity. Likewise, the need for a power source is a part of the ‘droid’s species-being. Its owner can reprogram it so that it rejects its batteries or something, but that’s called “breaking it”. Sadly, what’s throwing you off is that - since ‘droids are not biological - they are more purely social than humans. Where capitalists have enough power over your social-being to (for example) make you work 40 hours a week just to remain healthy, those with power over the social-being of a ‘droid can directly manipulate its brains to make it do anything. This is a bad thing, as is readily understood by anyone who’s seen Blade Runner. Squizzle posted:roddenberry died in 1991 So?
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Mar 5, 2020 06:13
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Star trek is a post scarcity society, but there is one resources still scarce: land on Earth. this is limited farmland in North America and Western Europe. the people who had it were the federation equivalent to landed gentry. they were meritocracy's greatest hero, a good story, who grew up with a wink in their to be a transwarp weapons engineer. every boy and girls dream.
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Mar 5, 2020 06:18
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there are way better agricultural planets then earth that people can do farming poo poo on
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Mar 5, 2020 06:23
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Squizzle posted:there are way better agricultural planets then earth that people can do farming poo poo on Tell that to the Maquis.
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Mar 5, 2020 06:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I think you’re a bit confused here. it is difficult to speak of the 'species being' of a speculative synthetic ai in wholly analagous terms. more complex conceptualization is required. there is of course great speculative controversy over a mechanical vs a teleological characterization of such an entity. the crux of the matter seems to be that ai don't necessarily have an intrinsic telos towards social objects (towards their own creative self-realization within the world). if they do have such a telos then it is not necessarily an inborne one. it is just as possibly a sort of extension (as a means or as an end in itself) of the telos of their creator. there are just too many open-ended complexities to be satisfied with classical social theory here. Zane fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Mar 5, 2020 |
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Mar 5, 2020 06:53
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Does anyone have a complete resource of all the concepts Roddenberry came up with for TNG?
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Mar 5, 2020 07:04
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Squizzle posted:there are way better agricultural planets then earth that people can do farming poo poo on Ya thats the post scarcity thing, want a farm? have a free one on some nice planet enjoy! But you cant get into the earth landower club.
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Mar 5, 2020 07:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What does a space-miner look like?  CainFortea posted:She lived near her grandpa's farm. This, a landed elite does not create. of course an inner doesn't realize just having land makes you an elite
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Mar 5, 2020 07:48
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hakimashou posted:Ya thats the post scarcity thing, want a farm? have a free one on some nice planet enjoy! And if you get property on the outskirts of the federation there’s no guarantee that they care enough about you to protect you if you’re threatened by outside invaders.
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Mar 5, 2020 08:11
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Atrocious Joe posted:of course an inner doesn't realize just having land makes you an elite Other people owning land does not mean you own land. How is this hard?
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Mar 5, 2020 08:25
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Complications posted:About a season later they mentioned that they'd reconfigured the warp fields so that they wouldn't damage anything, would indeed start repairing the damage, and that they could do subspace burnouts again. Starfleet can start rolling coal again.
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Mar 5, 2020 12:50
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ruddiger posted:Tell that to the Maquis. ok i will
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Mar 5, 2020 13:06
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Zane posted:droids/holograms require power. but droid/hologram miners can also produce power. there isn't enough data to infer positive or a negative surplus from this economic relationship. but if this is an speculative utopia, and if the text is sufficiently paltry and contradictory to be open to practically any interpretation, then the conditions can simply be assumed according to one's preference. in these properly propitious conditions, reprogrammable droids/holograms are effectively capital goods that entirely replace labour in the production process and allow capital to infinitely accumulate upon its own productive activity. Well, that’s just a lengthy way of saying you don’t know what’s going on - but don’t get caught up in “complexities”. It’s actually fairly straightforward to say that the telos of class struggle is full communism (i.e. that full communism is prefigured by expressions of proletarian solidarity). So the matter of the intrinsic or extrinsic telos of an AI is as simple as pairing Chappie with Elysium. If the given droid is a speaking being, then it is a brother in shared struggle. If the droid is not a speaking being, and therefore simply a means of production, then we appropriate it. The only trick is to remain diligent to avoid conflating the two, because that’s tantamount to complaining that “those Mexicans are stealing our jobs!”
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Mar 5, 2020 16:04
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if non-thinking beings provide for all economic necessities then there is no struggle to be had. if some thinking beings are extensions of other thinking beings (effectively: master and slave) then humanity has reintroduced many old problems back into the organization of society that--if we were orthodox thinkers--would again have to be resolved through a long historical dialectic. the fundamental social categories, and constituent 'stages,' through which this dialectic would proceed would be very different however. and even this would be to somewhat trivialize the problem; for i don't think a replicable hologram (sentient or not) fundamentally has the same species-being. but setting all this aside -- the star trek corporations could already be socially owned!! marx himself believed the corporation was a harbinger of socialism.
Zane fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Mar 5, 2020 |
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Mar 5, 2020 19:37
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Zane posted:but setting all this aside -- the star trek corporations could already be socially owned!! marx himself believed the corporation was a harbinger of socialism. Lots of things could be, but we've already thoroughly established that private property still exists in the Federation. It's like with the premise that "there is no struggle to be had", because automation might have eliminated scarcity. As illustrated with Grandpa Sisko's untreated heart disease, there is such a thing as artificial scarcity. So I prefer to deal in the concrete: "Dad! You know if we stay with Grandpa he's going to put me to work in the kitchen." "Is that so bad?" "Chopping vegetables for nine hours a day isn't exactly my idea of a vacation." "Jake, you're not a child anymore. Grandpa will not expect you to chop vegetables. He'll want you to wait tables." There's no real indication that Jake is exaggerating, so it looks like the Federation allows a 9-hour workday and also child labor. That's a very specific number, given the massive historical importance of the Eight-Hour Day movement.
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Mar 5, 2020 20:21
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Ds9 takes place over 100.years after TOS. It's entirely probable that the golden age presented in TOS has become decadent and corrupt in the intervening century. Apply the evidence amassed in throw thread practically confirm it. The Dominion's existential threat to the Federation is as much a mirror of the existential threat the Federation poses to itself and its founding values.
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Mar 5, 2020 21:20
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Here's to the finest crew in starfleet!
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Mar 5, 2020 22:23
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| # ? Oct 4, 2024 05:50 |
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I think the guy having a restaurant is actually just his hobby.
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Mar 5, 2020 22:23
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