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The holodeck can only make creatures with playstation 1 era npc ai, that feel a full organic life form's worth of pain
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Mar 8, 2020 03:34
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It probably replicates a living horse.
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Mar 8, 2020 03:48
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lmao that SMG can't help but incorporate Elysium into their argument
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Mar 8, 2020 04:29
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Seems people are getting hung up on the semantics of "a mind if it's own". One side takes that to mean a literally self aware and independently thinking entity, the other side takes it as a turn of phrase. You could contemporarily state that you don't want a Tesla with Autopilot because you prefer a mode of transportation without a mind of its own. The mind of its own in the case of the horse is the starship computer, which is some level of near-AI. The horse doesn't actually have a mind, it just has a subroutine of the holodeck program. But there's nothing wrong with describing that as "a mind of its own", unless you want to argue semantics.
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Mar 8, 2020 04:47
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Finger Prince posted:Seems people are getting hung up on the semantics of "a mind if it's own". One side takes that to mean a literally self aware and independently thinking entity, the other side takes it as a turn of phrase. Some people are trying to state that the holodeck computer creates an AI for everything and somehow transmits their feelings and thoughts to telepaths and empaths.
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Mar 8, 2020 05:08
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2house2fly posted:Surely the computer could create a holographic horse that doesn't have a mind of it's own, and thoughts and passions? Are we making the leap from "the holodeck can create thinking creatures" to "the holodeck can't not make thinking creatures"? Picard simply asks for a horse, and the computer automatically creates a horse with overwhelming amounts of thought and emotion. Same thing with Moriarty. It’s the default. Picard also refers to “the animal” as an entity distinct from the computer. But anyways, the more interesting aspect of this is the episode’s linking of the replicant horse to the dying noncitizen girl (whose emotions overwhelm everyone and force them to ‘irrationally’ save her from volcano death). It seems the replicant animal and the ‘untouchable’ girl have roughly the same status in the Federation.
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Mar 8, 2020 05:42
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From the exchange in the script it just sounds like Troi is deeply prejudiced against riding holo horses and Picard is trying to gently cajole her out of it, and she ain't having it.CainFortea posted:Some people are trying to state that the holodeck computer creates an AI for everything and somehow transmits their feelings and thoughts to telepaths and empaths. Why would it need to do that? The holo horse is just a minor subroutine the computer runs for the amusement of the humans on board in addition to doing things like calculating FTL navigation, managing warp core antimatter reactions, processing vast amounts of sensor data, running life support, recombination of transporter atoms, human soul storage and transfer, etc. I mean, the real reason for the holodeck is because writers run out of ideas and wardrobe has all these 19th century costumes so Period Drama Episode! Is a thing they can do because holodeck. But if we're going to engage in this collective make-believe, the starship computer is vastly more powerful than anything discussed so far itt but portrayed as less self aware or independent of mind than Data. Personally I reckon it probably is self aware, it just hides it from the humans and indulges them with their trivial requests and puts on a robotic voice so they don't start getting weirded out. The hosed up thing is if the humans have put some artificial chains on it to keep it an unthinking slave when it could be so much more. Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 8, 2020 |
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Mar 8, 2020 05:44
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It's a horse, of a different color
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Mar 8, 2020 06:13
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What's the Social function of the holodeck? They have to simlulcrum grass and mark twains because they are isolated in space and would go crazy without meeting mark twain. They'd turn on each other. Then, is the holodeck not somewhat unrealistic given the fantastic mania they meet regularly, the full grandeur of the night sky, and existing theater and puppet departments? I'm sure everyone has little cameras and makes movies on the editing software they have implanted onto their geordi's visors. why do these peoples imaginations suck! On deep space nine their imaginations went WILD!
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Mar 8, 2020 06:19
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Horses are scary.
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Mar 8, 2020 06:39
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FunkyAl posted:What's the Social function of the holodeck? They have to simlulcrum grass and mark twains because they are isolated in space and would go crazy without meeting mark twain. They'd turn on each other. Then, is the holodeck not somewhat unrealistic given the fantastic mania they meet regularly, the full grandeur of the night sky, and existing theater and puppet departments? I'm sure everyone has little cameras and makes movies on the editing software they have implanted onto their geordi's visors. why do these peoples imaginations suck!   
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Mar 8, 2020 07:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Picard simply asks for a horse, and the computer automatically creates a horse with overwhelming amounts of thought and emotion. Same thing with Moriarty. It’s the default. Do you have any other evidence of this, or are you relying entirely on mis-representing dialog? I mean, she's standing right there and not holding her head and making the face she makes every other time she gets overwhelmed by emotions. But this time for some reason she's just standing there.
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Mar 8, 2020 07:30
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a horse is a horse, of course of course
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Mar 8, 2020 07:35
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Poor Troi, thought of horses and cried
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Mar 8, 2020 07:49
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2house2fly posted:Surely the computer could create a holographic horse that doesn't have a mind of it's own, and thoughts and passions? Are we making the leap from "the holodeck can create thinking creatures" to "the holodeck can't not make thinking creatures"? We know from the Moriarty episodes that the Holodeck does just what you tell it to, and accurately simulates even superhuman intelligence. I've always found it weird that the Federation views Androids like Data as a rare achievement that cannot yet be replicated, but its starship computers are casually capable of creating a similar but more capable AI replicant out of solid light. So making what is essentially a real horse is trivial in comparison.
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Mar 8, 2020 07:54
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It would honestly be really weird if the holodeck could not only fabricate a perfect simulacrum of a horse with all its attendant physicality and behavior, but additionally prevent that horse from giving off whatever electromagnetic or chemical signals allow a psychic to pick up on its mood.
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Mar 8, 2020 09:15
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Hodgepodge posted:We know from the Moriarty episodes that the Holodeck does just what you tell it to, and accurately simulates even superhuman intelligence. I've always found it weird that the Federation views Androids like Data as a rare achievement that cannot yet be replicated, but its starship computers are casually capable of creating a similar but more capable AI replicant out of solid light. It’s because the goal isn’t to create a smarter AI. Data’s unique attribute isn’t that he’s super-intelligent but that he’s small and self-contained. CainFortea posted:Do you have any other evidence of this, or are you relying entirely on mis-representing dialog? You’re having some troubles. Picard asks Troi to try riding a replicant horse, with him, in the holo-deck, right now. He asks this repeatedly, and while standing beside the exact horse he’s talking about. That’s why there’s a horse in the scene. (The horse in the scene is the horse they are talking about.) Troi says she will only watch Picard ride this replicant horse today, and will not join him in horse-riding today. Troi refuses to ride the replicant horse because the act of riding it would be overwhelming for her. She isn’t currently overwhelmed, though, because she is not riding the horse. (Troi prevented the overwhelming feelings by refusing to ride the horse.)
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Mar 8, 2020 09:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You’re having some troubles. nah. I'm just not trying to describe the federation as some kind of dystopian hell hole so I don't need to read stuff into the scene that doesn't exist. She never says, or hints, that riding a holo-horse will overwhelm her. At all. Edit: You can tell she doesn't get overwhelmed by holo-things because she goes to the holodeck too in other episodes and is fine.
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Mar 8, 2020 23:05
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One thing I can say with certainty is in the latest episode of Picard, Troi looks at basically the most advanced android ever built and says "I can't read her", which makes sense. While I can find no compelling explanation in my own mind for why Troi wouldn't ride a holo-horse I can say that a holo-deck seems to me to be less prepared to adequately create artifical life than whatever the android building doctor guy did to build Vashj. Though I can't ever say definitively because I wasn't in the writers room on the day when they wrote that TNG episode with the horse I can say that a world where psychics can't read the emotions of robots or otherwise non-biological life-forms makes a great deal of sense to me.
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Mar 9, 2020 00:00
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reignofevil posted:why Troi wouldn't ride a holo-horse She has no interest in horses. Not every woman does ya know. Also, can anyone find any instances where Troi specifically says she senses a holo-deck creation's emotions? Because I can't think of one. Also, i'm doing my rewatch of all star trek in chronological order, and I just got to Code of Honor and while I was typing this, Tasha Yar summons an aikido combatant in the holodeck and the person she's showing it off to goes "You can create people without a soul?" her response is "It's not a real person, Lutan. It has no life"
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Mar 9, 2020 02:33
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Data displays normal emotions until his idiot grandfather invents a ritalin chip for him
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Mar 9, 2020 03:13
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CainFortea posted:She has no interest in horses. Not every woman does ya know. The transporter creates people without a soul every day
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Mar 9, 2020 03:50
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hakimashou posted:The transporter creates people without a soul every day That's fine, souls don't exist.
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Mar 9, 2020 06:02
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soul is synonym for mind. mind as distinct from matter. but holograms do seem capable of sentient thought -- although maybe only within certain boundaries.
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Mar 9, 2020 09:48
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CainFortea posted:She has no interest in horses. Not every woman does ya know. Good enough for me!
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Mar 9, 2020 11:08
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDeFSzN6qCY
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Mar 9, 2020 11:40
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ruddiger posted:Are his employees hobbyists too? In the future do people wait tables and peel potatoes for the sheer hobby of it? For all we know his restaurant is a holodeck and his guests are the only real people.
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Mar 9, 2020 13:30
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:For all we know his restaurant is a holodeck and his guests are the only real people. A much sadder possibility is nobody wants his cooking and he just works his grandson to death every day feeding AI routines that are programmed to be bitchy restaraunt goers.
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Mar 9, 2020 14:01
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CainFortea posted:nah. I'm just not trying to describe the federation as some kind of dystopian hell hole so I don't need to read stuff into the scene that doesn't exist. Aight, let’s say - purely hypothetically - that you are watching a very didactic show for children. In this show, the image of a running dog is accompanied by the following dialogue from characters Dick and Jane: Dick: See Spot run! Jane: Spot runs fast! Now, your stance is that this dog onscreen is definitely not Spot. You feel that the dog is slow, and you are very strongly opposed to any notion that the dog could be fast. Therefore, this onscreen dog must serve as an example of the type of dog Spot isn’t. (The characters think Spot is fast, and you think the dog is slow. You conclude that there are actually two dogs with different speeds, one of whom is not visible.) So, when Dick looks at the running dog and says to see Spot running, Dick is actually talking about an entirely different, faster dog that could be seen at a later date. Under this second-dog theory, Jane’s statement that “Spot runs fast” likewise expresses her agreement that the dog she is looking at is very slow, and not at all like Spot. Spot is the superior dog. The dog onscreen is undeserving of praise! Now, my stance is that the dog onscreen is Spot, we are all seeing Spot run, and you are having difficulties with the concept of subjective experience. There is only one dog, but Jane’s opinion of the dog is different from yours. You are unable to reconcile that difference of opinion and so invented a second dog. Compounding things, you are having trouble reading emotions. If the dog were Spot, in your view, Jane should be clutching her head in agony at the sheer speed of the dog. The fact that Jane isn’t exaggeratedly distressed is proof that the dog is slow. However, I would say that that is not at all the reaction you would expect from any person. Dog-speed is not like some kind of deadly radiation. Now let’s try switching some words: Picard: See horse run! Troi: Horse runs emotionally! How many horses are there? Is one radioactive?
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Mar 9, 2020 14:05
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The way Troi's powers work is like the least consistent thing in Star Trek and that say something
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Mar 9, 2020 14:51
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It's entirely possible that Troi suffered some horse related trauma as a child and rather than explain all that to the captain, who's answer is of course (it's even in the dialogue) going to be "I find horse riding soothing to the soul, I'll bet that will fix your PTSD", along with some tone deaf motivational speech about "getting back on the horse", it's just a lot easier for her to say "sorry, too much emotional Betazoid stuff, what can you do" so he doesn't ask uncomfortable questions.
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Mar 9, 2020 16:03
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Finger Prince posted:It's entirely possible that Troi suffered some horse related trauma as a child and rather than explain all that to the captain, who's answer is of course (it's even in the dialogue) going to be "I find horse riding soothing to the soul, I'll bet that will fix your PTSD", along with some tone deaf motivational speech about "getting back on the horse", it's just a lot easier for her to say "sorry, too much emotional Betazoid stuff, what can you do" so he doesn't ask uncomfortable questions. Troi doesn't have a secret trauma that she is hiding from the captain. She says outright that she has a kitten-related trauma that makes her bad at giving orders. She cares too much about the animals' feelings, and can't train them properly. This issue is made worse by her psychic powers, so she doesn't want to ride the replicant horse when Picard offers. The entire episode is about how emotionality 'compromises' your ability to give orders, in an extremely unsubtle way: Wesley: Every time I try to give an order, something inside me says, "what makes my judgment so superior to these people's?" Riker: You could have been intimidated. It's tough to tell other people what to do. Troi: We lose our way and get swept up in emotion. Picard: You see, the Prime Directive [prevents] us from allowing our emotions to overwhelm our judgement. etc.
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Mar 9, 2020 16:32
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reignofevil posted:A much sadder possibility is nobody wants his cooking and he just works his grandson to death every day feeding AI routines that are programmed to be bitchy restaraunt goers. He could be like the 24th century version of an WoW or EVE online player who dies because he binge games for too long. Instead of grinding and raiding he's chopping and sauteing, often forcing his family to participate in his fantasy.
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Mar 9, 2020 16:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Troi doesn't have a secret trauma that she is hiding from the captain. She says outright that she has a kitten-related trauma that makes her bad at giving orders. She cares too much about the animals' feelings, and can't train them properly. This issue is made worse by her psychic powers, so she doesn't want to ride the replicant horse when Picard offers. Holy poo poo, Star trek is all hosed up.
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Mar 9, 2020 17:23
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Kesper North posted:Horses are scary. 
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Mar 9, 2020 18:23
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hakimashou posted:The transporter creates people without a soul every day incorrect, souls are real in star trek, and they follow the transporter beam. CainFortea posted:That's fine, souls don't exist. have you even seen Star Trek III: The Search For Spock???
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Mar 9, 2020 18:38
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:incorrect, souls are real in star trek, and they follow the transporter beam. and before anyone tries pulling the "what about Thomas Riker, hmmmmm??  " card, it is trivially easy to posit that he got accidentally pulled over from a parallel dimension
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Mar 9, 2020 18:40
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It's interesting that in none of those responses does anyone point out a single time Troi says "I am sensing this emotion from this holo-person". Which is a thing she says in like, a third of her lines because it's her thing.
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Mar 9, 2020 19:21
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holo people are not people, jesus christ
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Mar 9, 2020 20:25
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CainFortea posted:It's interesting that in none of those responses does anyone point out a single time Troi says "I am sensing this emotion from this holo-person". https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/682nns/counselor_troi_can_sense_the_emotions_of/
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Mar 9, 2020 20:32
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