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Troi senses the feelings of artificial life forms or sentient AI when it is convenient to the writers and the plot.
Impossibly Perfect Sphere fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Mar 9, 2020 |
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Mar 9, 2020 20:37
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:Troi sense the feelings of artificial life forms or sentient AI when it is convenient to the writers and the plot. You’re never going to be one of these embarrassing losers with that attitude dude
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Mar 9, 2020 20:46
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So it seems that the only time Troi sensed something from a holodeck creation, was when it created Moriarty. You know, that very special rare event and not the normal holodeck operation. And even then, she doesn't sense any emotions. She sense "order". So no, holo-creatures aren't feeling.
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Mar 9, 2020 20:46
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Troi also senses the feelings of biological life forms when it's convenient to the writers and the plot. The point is that she can do that, because there are minds there to sense. Although Troi's not actually a great way to determine what is or isn't a minded being because there are plenty of biological creatures whose emotions she can't perceive either, like the entire Ferengi species. Either way, given that we're discussing a science fiction series, Troi's ability to perceive another being's thoughts or feelings has to work by some physical mechanism ("brainwaves" or whatever, which may well be an emergent property of any mind whether rooted in a mushy brain or microchip) and it'd be weirder if artificial minds didn't register than if they did.CainFortea posted:So it seems that the only time Troi sensed something from a holodeck creation, was when it created Moriarty. You know, that very special rare event and not the normal holodeck operation. No, she also had a hard time telling the difference between the holo-doctor and his flesh and blood creator, and could also sense the feelings of robots. It's obvious that, even if holo-creatures are in truth emotionless p-zombies, they are at least just as able to fool psychic senses as they are able to fool physical senses when they cry out, plead for their lives, etc.
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Mar 9, 2020 20:47
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Remember when Troi had to send holo-Geordi to his death in that tube, and he does that little look back like "you bitch", do you think she she sensed his anger and fear? No, of course not. Because he wasn't real, otherwise she would have been devastated.
Impossibly Perfect Sphere fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Mar 9, 2020 |
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Mar 9, 2020 20:49
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Anyone arguing that holograms have real thoughts is purposefully ignoring Manhunt and talking about holohorses is a loving disingenuous idiot. It is the episode that directly addresses this. Stop ignoring evidence that doesn't suit your personal hot takes.
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Mar 9, 2020 21:00
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:Remember when Troi had to send holo-Geordi to his death in that tube, and he does that little look back like "you bitch", do you think she she sensed his anger and fear? No, of course not. Because he wasn't real, otherwise she would have been devastated. Then why did they even bother with the test? It’s an emotion test. It’s the basic point of the test. Like, it’s a test of whether Troi can give an order to kill someone without being overwhelmed by emotions. Hey, wait - that sounds familiar. It’s just like in that Pen Pals episode, where Picard suppresses his emotions and orders the crew to kill a little girl, and her entire race, because they are inferior - which is held up as an example of good leadership.
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Mar 9, 2020 21:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s just like in that Pen Pals episode, where Picard suppresses his emotions and orders the crew to kill a little girl, and her entire race, because they are inferior - which is held up as an example of good leadership. Literally none of that happened. Do you even Trek?
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Mar 9, 2020 21:13
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The irony of it all is that holograms and androids on the show have greater character depth than Councilor "Girl pretty. Have emotions" Troi.
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Mar 9, 2020 21:25
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:Literally none of that happened. Do you even Trek? Earlier in the thread, someone posted a transcript of the episode “Pen Pals”. Everything I’ve written is easily verifiable. In the episode “Pen Pals”, Wesley is taught leadership skills by Riker. Riker’s advice is to be like Picard. In the same episode, Picard insists that nobody can save the little girl and her race from volcano-death. Picard remains steadfast on this point, until someone points out a loophole in the Prime Directive that allows them to intervene if they receive a distress call.
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Mar 9, 2020 21:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Earlier in the thread, someone posted a transcript of the episode “Pen Pals”. Everything I’ve written is easily verifiable. If you watch the episode it's made clear that Picard is being too absolute, and even in the end ultimately admits Data was right! The episode was about contrasting Welsey's wishywashyness with Picard's overzealous application of order and rules. Also... quote:orders the crew to kill a little girl, and her entire race, because they are inferior The implication you make that he ordered her killed because her's was a pre-warp society is obviously an obfuscation. And not saving the girl and her planet is not equivalent to ordering their killing. Impossibly Perfect Sphere fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Mar 9, 2020 |
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Mar 9, 2020 21:31
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:And not saving the girl and her planet is not equivalent to ordering their killing. This is like the cornerstone of liberal ideology, and precisely encapsulates why Star Trek is a liberal fantasy, not a socialist fantasy.
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Mar 9, 2020 21:36
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I think we could have a long thoughtful discussion re: responsibility to act and where a society with powerful but ultimately finite and sometimes clumsy or untested means to enact positive change should draw the line as far as holding themselves accountable to anyone they chance upon who happens to be about to go extinct forever.
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Mar 9, 2020 21:54
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:If you watch the episode it's made clear that Picard is being too absolute, and even in the end ultimately admits Data was right! See, in this case, that's genuinely not what happens. Picard doesn't admit that killing the girl was wrong. He simply considered "other options" before going through with it. If Geordi Laforge had not pointed out the 'distress call' loophole, Picard would have obeyed the Prime Directive and left those people to die. Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:The implication you make that he ordered her killed because her's was a pre-warp society is obviously an obfuscation. The Prime Directive is literally the only reason he tries to kill them. If the girl's society was "post-warp", there would be no conflict.
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Mar 9, 2020 22:03
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What about that kiss between Kirk and Uhura? Such a pivotal moment for TV and it was forced between them.
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Mar 9, 2020 22:11
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If a show involves conflict between two opposing viewpoints before one relents, does that mean that the show endorses the losing side? If the prime directive specifically dictates that a society that asks for help is exempt, does that mean that it was intended to condemn them to death? The Prime Directive is mainly there as a reminder to Starfleet officers not to play god, and every time it shows up, it's mainly there for them to find a loophole around. I think in its first appearance it was used as a loophole that was used as an excuse to disempower some alien druglords without having to take full control of their society. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Then why did they even bother with the test? It’s an emotion test. It’s the basic point of the test. That's more one in the column for how Starfleet isn't well-designed to accommodate nonhuman species. They regularly overlook or disparage differences between species all the time, sometimes to the peril of crewmembers.
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Mar 10, 2020 00:03
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I mean I think starfleet is genuinely trying it's best not to overlook other species I mean Picard tried to negotiate with a giant crystal that ate entire planets worth of life-forms iirc. If anyone could suggest to me how they might be more accommodating I'd love to hear it!
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Mar 10, 2020 00:06
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The Enterprise-D has an entire flooded section of the ship inhabited by Cetacean crew-members. If making your ship comfortable for Whales isn't accommodating I don't know what is. But on the subject of Prime Directive chat I'll say little good can come of it since every writer had a different idea of what its intent and wording was. Is it an order to not lord over the less tech advanced as tyrants or some weird way to excuse genocide? There really is no single answer.
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Mar 10, 2020 00:23
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galagazombie posted:There really is no single answer. There may not be any single answer, but we know that "genocide excuse" isn't one of them.
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Mar 10, 2020 00:35
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galagazombie posted:The Enterprise-D has an entire flooded section of the ship inhabited by Cetacean crew-members. If making your ship comfortable for Whales isn't accommodating I don't know what is. I believe you're thinking of Seaquest.
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Mar 10, 2020 00:55
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CainFortea posted:There may not be any single answer, but we know that "genocide excuse" isn't one of them. Well yeah, what I'm saying is that sometimes the Prime Directive isn't that and sometimes it is. So you can't really debate it as a part of the setting, at best you can debate about it in a particular episode without broader context. SlothfulCobra posted:I believe you're thinking of Seaquest. Like Saucer Separation past the first season or "Stellar Cartography" it was something that's on the map of the ship and talked about in production materials (I think they even mention it in an early episode) that they ended up not having the budget or time to really do. Stellar Cartography at least got a redressed med-bay set in like season 6 or 7 when Picard learns that workplace romance is bad and finally got it's original concept realized in Generations. I think Cetacean crew was probably quietly swept under the rug since it seemed silly to have whales on the ship once the late 80's early 90's "Save the Whales" fad was no longer in vogue.
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Mar 10, 2020 01:16
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SlothfulCobra posted:If the prime directive specifically dictates that a society that asks for help is exempt, does that mean that it was intended to condemn them to death? The society is not exempt; that’s why they ultimately erase the girl’s brain and then fly away without assisting in any relief efforts. The planet isn’t destroyed, but it has been blasted by volcanos for days. (A distress call evidently allows for extremely minimal covert assistance.) But anyways, the bigger issue is that - because the characters found a loophole in this particular case - they end up returning to the status quo where this policy of extreme segregation remains unchallenged. The system worked! galagazombie posted:on the subject of Prime Directive chat I'll say little good can come of it since every writer had a different idea of what its intent and wording was. Is it an order to not lord over the less tech advanced as tyrants or some weird way to excuse genocide? There really is no single answer. Saying ‘it’s just inconsistent’ is an easy way to avoid what is consistent. And what is consistent is just the basic fact that “pre-warp” people are subject to extreme segregation. No contact whatsoever; you’re to pretend that they don’t even exist. This practice is partly based in the liberal style of paternalistic racism where ‘we’re trying to protect the purity of your culture’ or whatever. But it’s more broadly just racism of the more traditional variety: “A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy.” -Picard “[R. S.] Sharma theorizes that [the] institution of untouchability arose when the aboriginal tribes with ‘low material culture’ and ‘uncertain means of livelihood’ came to be regarded as impure by the privileged classes who despised manual labour, and regarded associated impurity with ‘certain material objects’.” -Wikipedia Picard looks upon noncitizens with disdain. They’re “infants” - obsessive and needy. He’s clearly not alone there.
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Mar 10, 2020 02:33
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Man, that's a quote taken wildly out of context. Finally somebody speaks out against the racism against 20th century white stockbrokers.
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Mar 10, 2020 03:57
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SlothfulCobra posted:Man, that's a quote taken wildly out of context. The quote is an example of Picard's ideological stance towards anyone from a "pre-warp" society. This classism usually carries intense racial connotations because "pre-warp" people are typically aliens. Ralph the stockbroker is human, but arrives in the future as a nonperson - with no valid documents, completely destitute. Not a credit to his name. Picard just sends him away to Earth and tells him to figure it out. Maybe he can find work in a restaurant?
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Mar 10, 2020 04:36
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You know, if there was no prime directive SMG would be on and on about imperialism instead.
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Mar 10, 2020 04:44
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The ship's computer is self aware, and she does a puppet show on the holodeck.
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Mar 10, 2020 05:12
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Of course, they should impose their will and spread the good word to the uneducated aliens. Is that what you meant?
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Mar 10, 2020 06:43
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Sulu collects antique earth guns
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Mar 10, 2020 07:00
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CainFortea posted:You know, if there was no prime directive SMG would be on and on about imperialism instead. Why “instead”? The Prime Directive hasn’t stopped the Federation from doing imperialism. As with the issue of holo-replicant sentience, you need to step back and look at assumptions that have always gone unquestioned: “History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less-developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous.” What is the precise trait of the Federation that makes it “disastrously” toxic to noncitizens? What historical failings have they not yet overcome? I mean, I can answer those questions. But can you? FunkyAl posted:The ship's computer is self aware, and she does a puppet show on the holodeck. This is sometimes the case - which might explain much of the confusion. In one episode, Picard asks for a holodeck game based on series of detective novels - but gets frustrated when the characters act uncharacteristically stupid and violent. The computer then explains that the books are too badly written to make proper characters: “The flexibility of the program is limited to the parameters of the Dixon Hill novels.” When making horses, though, the computer has no such limitation.
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Mar 10, 2020 07:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Saying ‘it’s just inconsistent’ is an easy way to avoid what is consistent. And what is consistent is just the basic fact that “pre-warp” people are subject to extreme segregation.
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Mar 10, 2020 09:15
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Zane posted:there is no effective historical analogy to prime directive. pre-warp non-federation peoples are not analogous--as suggested by these examples--to low-status and/or working-class minorities within an integral (hierarchical) social order. these peoples instead constitute entirely discrete social orders. all historical analogies break down because knowledge of other societies has always historically been accompanied by some kind of regularized social interaction. but there is not even the most primitive of exchange. and without regularized social interaction there is nothing that could be called a social power relationship. the purpose of the prime directive is to regularize social interaction and the social power relationship is that one side has a starship and can ignore the non-starship having people unless they accidently hear their cries for help, then they have to act. but they have no obligation to listen for cries for help in any fashion and doing so is discouraged
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Mar 10, 2020 09:35
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this made me giggle. horse wtf are you doing, you'll break your spine your huge idiot Farmer Crack-rear end posted:and before anyone tries pulling the "what about Thomas Riker, hmmmmm?? i guess mirror riker would have no beard
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Mar 10, 2020 10:40
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" card, it is trivially easy to posit that he got accidentally pulled over from a parallel dimension
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The base idea of the Prime Directive I think is meant to be both a hard stance against imperialism and policy to preserve cultural and species diversity- an important policy for a society that's explicitly multi-species and contains so many different cultures and peoples who are encouraged to understand their background. And it's derived from an old Vulcan law. I think the idea is meant to be that a pre-warp culture that's contacted by a galactic superpower, even a peaceful one, is likely to be politically and culturally overwhelmed in a few generations at best unless they have enough of their own sophisticated identity to hold onto. And of course, the Federation's experiences with a wonderfully wildly diverse and dangerous galaxy shows that you never know what an alien species might come up with that you never thought about or managed to achieve. Of course, this is where Eddington's point comes in- like the Borg, the Federation seeks to find new life and new civilisations, and integrate their unique traits and technology into their own. (This is also shown as the Federation has a reputation for excellent engineering and medicine among its rivals, likely due to the wide variety of perspectives encouraged to work together and a society that values intellectual skills and self-improvement in various fields) The Borg will even do something similar in ignoring species it doesn't consider to have any traits worth assimilating- in effect both cultivate new societies in the long term to potentially incorporate later. Does also remind me that it seems another unusual trait of Starfleet and apparently Federation culture in general is that it encourages lifelong learning and flexible career paths; people may stay in the same job until retirement or change significantly. I've said before, this makes perfect sense when you have a multi-species organisation with some like Vulcans who are very long-lived in comparison to humans, and quite possibly some shorter like Ocampa, so it would be deeply discriminatory to have an expected career track designed around the human lifespan. O'Brien comes to mind as someone who got on the engineering track later in his career after showing little aptitude in training but turning out to be very talented in the field when serving as a soldier. (and something similar happens with Rom, who is in a few ways analogous to O'Brien, who failed at business but turned out to excel as an engineer once given genuine opportunity. Who knows how he goes as Nagus, though I get the feeling a retired Zek still has a lot of influence behind the scenes) Also reminded of Bashir's dad, who is noted to have attempted and failed at a variety of jobs but doesn't seem too bothered, and sees prison time as an opportunity to study something new. It seems weird on a casual look but is interesting to explore.
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Mar 10, 2020 11:01
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Who knows what the outcome will be now that Picard decided to take active intervention and save that volcano planet. Perhaps they prevented the evolution of some kind of lava based life form. Or maybe the existing species on that planet is going to create the next Space Hitler who starts an intergalactic war that ultimately destroys trillions of lives.
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Mar 10, 2020 13:55
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In a series that has a woman apologize for being sexually assaulted, and where a man pretends to be another person to sleep with a woman, you have to make up bullshit to make it seem hosed up. What's wrong with you?
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Mar 10, 2020 15:19
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Don’t forget about when they had quark turn into a woman so he could understand how emotional they are
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Mar 10, 2020 16:07
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Every time people debate things like droid personhood and the Prime Directive I'm just gobsmacked that there's a debate at all, and that adult human beings who have been sci-fi fans all their lives are incapable of making basic observations.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Mar 10, 2020 |
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Mar 10, 2020 16:16
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Zane posted:there is no effective historical analogy to prime directive. pre-warp non-federation peoples are not analogous--as suggested by these examples--to low-status and/or working-class minorities within an integral (hierarchical) social order. these peoples instead constitute entirely discrete social orders. all historical analogies break down because knowledge of other societies has always historically been accompanied by some kind of regularized social interaction. but there is not even the most primitive of exchange. and without regularized social interaction there is nothing that could be called a social power relationship. The Prime Directive totally does have an analogy - in New Age UFO cultism and the so-called "Contactee Movement". Episodes like "Homeward" are transparently Ancient Aliens narratives told from the standpoint of the ancient aliens themselves. In "Pen Pals", the little girl is abducted into a saucer by a tall, grey-skinned man and medically examined / experimented upon before being deposited back at home with her memory erased. (But don't worry; he's benevolent.) Where this does get real is in the obvious ideological ties between this subject and those incredibly familiar conspiracy-movie cliches like "the public isn't ready for this information", and "if the truth gets out, there'll be panic in the streets!" The assertion is that, as Jack Nicholson put it, "you can't handle the truth": it's necessary to deceive people for their own good. Civilization must be founded on a lie. It's necessary because, as Picard says, the pre-warp cultures are stupid and infantile - though perhaps beautiful in their innocence. Nikolai: Captain, the Boraalans have a rich and beautiful culture, a deep spiritual life. They deserve the chance to survive. And isn't that what the Prime Directive was truly intended to do, to allow cultures to survive and grow naturally? The 'interference' that everyone's been talking about is specifically a cultural interference. That's usually spun as a good thing - 'look at their colourful dances!' - but it also means that access to medicine might interfere with the cultural practice of infanticide. There's no such thing as an entirely discrete social order, and that's true even in Star Trek. As noted earlier, the Federation uses the Prime Directive as a way to deny citizenship to those people whose solar systems they colonize. This means that you don't get a vote on what happens to, like, your sun or your moon, or your neighboring planet full of resources. It only seems like non-interference because the bill hasn't arrived yet. The Prime Directive, in practice, also means that Starfleet captains responding to some crisis will be paralyzed by indecision. As we see time and again, a simple matter like not letting a child fall into a volcano suddenly makes them freeze up and become terrified by the very concept of free will. What if a butterfly effect from saving the girl causes the a guy on the other side of the planet to have a child whose bloodline eventually spawns Hitlerborg 2.0??? This is the obvious point of having enforcement of this #1 rule, which is likely punishable by death, hinge on the definition of "natural." Is the emergence of Hitlerborg 2.0 from a butterfly effect "natural" or "unnatural"? Ultimately, "natural" is what benefits the Federation. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Mar 10, 2020 |
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Mar 10, 2020 19:22
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He meant in the real world. There's no way you're as stupid as you play on here or else I would wonder how you remember to breathe.
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Mar 10, 2020 19:30
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CaptainSkinny posted:He meant in the real world. There's no way you're as stupid as you play on here or else I would wonder how you remember to breathe. New Age ideology does exist in reality.
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Mar 10, 2020 19:51
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