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First you breathe in. Then comes a tricky part, you have to exhale. You repeat this again. Keep repeating it. I know it's a pain to you, but if you stop doing this then there will be no one to poo poo up this thread.
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Mar 10, 2020 20:32
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CaptainSkinny posted:First you breathe in. Then comes a tricky part, you have to exhale. Nobody is making GBS threads up this thread, least of all people talking about ways star trek is all hosed up!
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Mar 10, 2020 21:27
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Kesper North posted:i guess mirror riker would have no beard TNG Parallels establishes that there are numerous non-evil* parallel timelines. *i mean "mustache-twirling pirate ships" evil a la Mirror, Mirror, of course the banal evil of post-imperialist-neoliberalism-whatever is inescapable fact throughout the multiverse
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Mar 10, 2020 21:45
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I'm trying to remember now, but do we ever meet civilian leaders who are not part of the Federation on Earth?
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Mar 10, 2020 21:47
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Takes some serious gymnastics to complain about how starfleet's non-interference is also imperialism.
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Mar 10, 2020 23:04
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CaptainSkinny posted:First you breathe in. Then comes a tricky part, you have to exhale. There’s no need to panic; it’s very straightforward. Taking a historical catastrophe like the colonization of the Americas, Star Trek asks how this outcome could have been prevented. The stance of the Federation, as voiced by numerous characters, is that the Europeans should have modelled their conduct on that of our Pleiadian space brothers. Be like those benevolent aliens from UFOlogy: zip around in the distance so nobody can get a good look at you, abduct the occasional yokel so you can mess with his organs & drive him mad with prophecy, etc. To solve the problem of Columbus versus the natives, simply wait until both cultures have developed interstellar transportation. Of course this has never been tried on Earth (with ‘uncontacted tribes’ or whatever) because it’s insanely stupid. But the Prime Directive does have parallels to such varied and familiar practices as segregation, espionage, and wildlife photography.
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Mar 10, 2020 23:38
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CainFortea posted:Takes some serious gymnastics to complain about how starfleet's non-interference is also imperialism. Why do you think it’s not?
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Mar 10, 2020 23:46
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CainFortea posted:Takes some serious gymnastics to complain about how starfleet's non-interference is also imperialism. To me, the interesting thing we could be asking ourselves here is how could starfleet approach problems differently and achieve better outcomes. If non-interference can be criticized as a selfish behavior and interference would likely mirror our sordid history of colonialism and cultural whitewashing then what would those who suggest that the prime directive is a selfish or an otherwise flawed policy suggest the federation do instead. How can we adjust to try and do the right thing for each species we encounter regardless of technological development?
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Mar 10, 2020 23:55
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CaptainSkinny posted:First you breathe in. Then comes a tricky part, you have to exhale. Also I personally didn't think this post was very helpful.
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Mar 10, 2020 23:57
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What does God need with a horse?
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Mar 11, 2020 00:04
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ruddiger posted:Why do you think it’s not? If you can explain to me how any group can start taking over planets while simultaneously not doing that, i'm all ears.
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Mar 11, 2020 00:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There’s no need to panic; it’s very straightforward. Well, there's that one tribe on that island off the coast of India where first contact was attempted, the interlopers were killed horribly, and everyone just said, you know what, let them have their little island. Nobody is allowed to go there and try talking to them anymore. Except that one religious zealot who tried recently, and died horribly.
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Mar 11, 2020 00:40
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CainFortea posted:If you can explain to me how any group can start taking over planets while simultaneously not doing that, i'm all ears. Through ideology and claiming the star systems the planets reside in as part of Federation space? It’s not like imperialism hasn’t worked through proxies and propaganda throughout all of human history.
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Mar 11, 2020 00:46
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ruddiger posted:Through ideology and claiming the star systems the planets reside in as part of Federation space? It’s not like imperialism hasn’t worked through proxies and propaganda throughout all of human history. Well, beaming down and saying "you're all in the federation now" would be interference. So that wouldn't be it.
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Mar 11, 2020 00:53
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The ferengis were better because if they found people they would teach and help them.
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Mar 11, 2020 01:03
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hakimashou posted:The ferengis were better because if they found people they would teach and help them. they were even considerate enough to codify their wisdom http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/
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Mar 11, 2020 01:35
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Literally every anthropologist would tell you that whenever we can we should leave "uncontacted" peoples alone, and that in the situations where they were not left alone it always ends in disaster.
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Mar 11, 2020 01:49
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The Prime Directive of noninterference is very subjectively applied within series canon, and episodes often hinge on this. I'm wrestling with the question as I write my own SF about a future in which humanity is making similar decisions through a less rose-tinted lens. I am curious for posters' take on - if one insists on being a starfaring species with some form of organized government - whether it is preferable, morally and ethically, for an interstellar culture to practice total noninterference (as in avoidance and non-involvement, but might engage in reconnaissance and study from afar) with other cultures, or is it acceptable to intervene to save a species from extinction? Is it acceptable to intervene if someone from your culture is responsible for causing them harm? Is it acceptable to intervene if intervention is requested? This has meaning to me for how we address human questions, insofar as how Americans address our inability to interact with other cultures responsibly, and how we direct our energy and focus as a species going forward that I want to explore. (In part motivated by the fact that it seems to be easier for Americans to address these issues if they have dolls and a narrative framework.)
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Mar 11, 2020 05:24
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Kesper North posted:The Prime Directive of noninterference is very subjectively applied within series canon, and episodes often hinge on this. I'm wrestling with the question as I write my own SF about a future in which humanity is making similar decisions through a less rose-tinted lens. In fifty years imaging tech is probably going to be way more advanced than the mind boggling capabilities of videochips and hubble telescopes and three lenses iphone and such. All of that will multiply basically. By the time the federation is around, a hypotheitical "eye in the sky" sattelite or some such would be powerful enough to detect great images, video, and life and weather patterns from like a planet or two out. An asteroid belt or moon. Noninterference should be very easy, and if there is a civilization in trouble it will likely boil down to more of an "Aw hell, if we go save them the children won't get this shipment of astronaut ice cream on time, and also everyone on this ship will age 2000 years due to the diversion" issue than anything.
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Mar 11, 2020 05:53
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Any human expedition offworld is arguably just reality television, I'll stipulate that.
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Mar 11, 2020 08:57
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Finger Prince posted:Well, there's that one tribe on that island off the coast of India where first contact was attempted, the interlopers were killed horribly, and everyone just said, you know what, let them have their little island. Nobody is allowed to go there and try talking to them anymore. You really should read up on what their first contact with the British was like.
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Mar 11, 2020 09:36
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Kesper North posted:This has meaning to me for how we address human questions, insofar as how Americans address our inability to interact with other cultures responsibly, and how we direct our energy and focus as a species going forward that I want to explore. reignofevil posted:How can we adjust to try and do the right thing for each species we encounter regardless of technological development? The first thing is to say change begins at home. As gone over earlier, the violence faced by ‘prewarp’ noncitizens in the Federation is not unique. It’s largely identical to that experienced by holo-replicants, clones, the genetically enhanced, time travellers from the past, LGBT+ people, most robots, those with “non-severe” disabilities.... The list goes on and on. This is a systemic violence. The Federation has (largely) eliminated unemployment, but certainly not inequality. And that inequality, not the wealth, is what ‘trickles down’ to the least fortunate. So what’s the point of the Prime Directive if Grandpa Sisko can’t get medical care to prevent a stroke? This is where we can point out that the Prime Directive is designed to enforce a state of “nature”. If you go back to the start of this discussion, we’ve already talked about how genetically-enhanced people are discriminated against on the basis that they defy a natural order where nobody is too smart, too healthy. Legalized enhancement would make it unambiguous that Grandpa Sisko’s untreated condition is not a quirk of fate or personal failing, but something inflicted on him because of his socioeconomic status. At the same time that we address the inequality experienced by those already Federation citizens, it’s also a matter of expanding citizenship to encompass the excluded. There’s no point in lying: ‘pre-warp’ people whose worlds have been annexed by the Federation are absolutely a part of the Federation, and must be considered citizens by default. Picard: So we make an exception in the deaths of millions. Pulaski: Yes. Picard: And is it the same situation if it's an epidemic, and not a geological calamity? Pulaski: Absolutely. Picard: How about a war? If generations of conflict is killing millions, do we interfere? Ah, well, now we're all a little less secure in our moral certitude. And what if it's not just killings - if an oppressive government is enslaving millions? It would be absurd if the same argument were applied to Federation citizens. Borgs are attacking New Orleans and assimilating people? Well, who are we to defy the Cosmic Plan? Picard specifically uses slavery as an example of something not too bad. Don’t get so emotional, Geordi.
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Mar 11, 2020 18:26
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Kesper North posted:I am curious for posters' take on - if one insists on being a starfaring species with some form of organized government - whether it is preferable, morally and ethically, for an interstellar culture to practice total noninterference (as in avoidance and non-involvement, but might engage in reconnaissance and study from afar) with other cultures, or is it acceptable to intervene to save a species from extinction? Is it acceptable to intervene if someone from your culture is responsible for causing them harm? Is it acceptable to intervene if intervention is requested?
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Mar 11, 2020 18:36
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Halloween Jack posted:If you were a billionaire and you found someone passed out face-down in a puddle, wouldn't you drag them out, call an ambulance, and pay their bill? I'd probably start a charitable organization to benefit people face down in puddles that conveniently reduces my tax burden to the point that the government pays me to operate it, staff it with some do-gooder types, then forget it exists.
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Mar 11, 2020 18:58
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I mean if you were a billionaire, not if you were a billionaire.
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Mar 11, 2020 19:05
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CainFortea posted:Well, beaming down and saying "you're all in the federation now" would be interference. So that wouldn't be it. I guess that explains the blind spots if you think that’s the only way imperialist expansion works.
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Mar 11, 2020 20:20
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Your post is so outrageously stupid that I have to assume you are arguing in bad faith or just trolling.
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Mar 11, 2020 21:18
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Chomp8645 posted:Your post is so outrageously stupid that I have to assume you are arguing in bad faith or just trolling.
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Mar 11, 2020 21:21
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Halloween Jack posted:Great contribution! Thanks! 
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Mar 11, 2020 21:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The first thing is to say change begins at home. First of all, thanks, this take rings true (and plays quite conveniently with the fact that my setting already uses human enhancement as a mark of privilege). However I see a trap here: If we apply the rubric that they are citizens by default strictly, this means that the Federation is now vacuuming up worlds full of indigenes, introducing them to replicators and sanitation and possibly even agriculture, and adding their biological and technological distinctiveness to its own. Simply by assuming this responsibility, the Federation becomes little different from the Borg. Does that not make the Federation imperialist colonizers? Is that still ethically preferable to noninterference? Is your preferred outcome that humans simply never leave Earth if we ever develop the means in the first place? (I've been assuming that since the outset, fwiw.)
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Mar 11, 2020 21:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:the violence faced by ‘prewarp’ noncitizens in the Federation is not unique. There are no prewarp noncitizens in the federation. So there's that. There are also zero pre-warp planets annexed by the federation. Actually i'm pretty sure there are no planets annexed by the federation. And the augments aren't discriminated against, they're disallowed because they always kill a bunch of people and try to take over. ruddiger posted:I guess that explains the blind spots if you think that’s the only way imperialist expansion works. No, you just haven't explained how someone can interfere while also not interfering at the same time.
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Mar 11, 2020 21:41
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Imperialism and genocide aren’t unavoidable consequences of cross-cultural contact. They’re caused be the prevailing mode of production of the society with greater military capabilities. If the Prime Directive actually does protect pre-warp civilizations - rather than simply condemning billions to death by preventable causes for the sake of creating a more realistic terrarium to peer into - then it must be the case that the Federation itself is actually a harmful and exploitative society.
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Mar 11, 2020 22:03
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CainFortea posted:There are no prewarp noncitizens in the federation. So there's that. There are also zero pre-warp planets annexed by the federation. Actually i'm pretty sure there are no planets annexed by the federation. The Federation is annexing people's whole solar systems without them being aware of it. It's usually couched in very careful terms. We have a scientific research station in their solar system, or on their moon, or just over a hill from the nearest settlement... If we could steal all of Venezuela's oil without them ever knowing we were there, would it not be imperialism?
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Mar 11, 2020 22:09
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The “infancy” metaphor Picard uses is extremely apt, because in effect pre-warp peoples in Federation space are already under the feds’ power but simply don’t realize it yet. It’s like when a child in the modern world (who has somehow been lucky enough to not already have had dealings with our carceral system or economic pressures, an increasingly rare occurrence) grows up and realizes that every piece of property from horizon to horizon is owed by hostile forces who will only suffer him or her to live in exchange for his or her cheaply sold labor-power.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Mar 11, 2020 |
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Mar 11, 2020 22:17
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CainFortea posted:There are no prewarp noncitizens in the federation. So there's that. There are also zero pre-warp planets annexed by the federation. Actually i'm pretty sure there are no planets annexed by the federation. Not true. Example: Organia, which the Federation contacted because the Klingons were considering annexing it, so the Federation moved in to put the Organians under its protection. The Federation does the same with other worlds within its sphere - remember warp drive starships patrol actual volumes of space, they don't just leap about. Federation expansion has swallowed up lots of primitive worlds that have no idea they are "inside" the Federation's boundaries, but by forbidding other cultures from contacting prewarp civilizations within its sphere, it has annexed that territory (and defends its claims based on the principles of annexation, because that is the framework the Klingons among others insist on working in).
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Mar 12, 2020 00:07
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bajorans arent warp capable but the federation still broke the prime directive to gently caress with the hated 'spoonhead' other, and then ofc to preserve their venal interest in the wormhole
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Mar 12, 2020 00:22
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I don't think any of you knows what annexation means. Also no, that isn't what happened with Bajor either. Does anyone in this thread actually watch Star Trek?
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Mar 12, 2020 00:27
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CainFortea posted:I don't think any of you knows what annexation means. Never!
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Mar 12, 2020 00:33
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CainFortea posted:I don't think any of you knows what annexation means.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:39
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How exactly does the federation break the prime directive in their support of Bajor? I don't think it's reasonable to call them "Pre-warp" anymore since they were under cardassian rule for 40 years.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:47
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