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Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010


StillFullyTerrible posted:

i'm lucky one of my main influences growing up was hp lovecraft, i'm already fully trained to deal with the stuff i like being made by a real turd of a human being

Yeah every time I see people appearing to reckon for the first time with this kind of thing I'm just like "I listen to black metal"

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Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



J.K. Rowling wanted to come up with a word for wizards to call non-wizards. She came up with "muggles."

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Lovecraft's a good example too because once you know his political views you realize that literally everything he wrote is fashy as gently caress, like his entire concept of horror is the destruction of western society and the pure blood of his race by mixing with outside, alien forces and its own decadence and degeneracy. If he was alive today he'd be like a blackpill neo nazi or something.

Which is interesting about Rowling too because so much of her dogshit views come through in her writing once you read it that way.

Technocrat
Jan 30, 2011

I always finish what I sta


mind the walrus posted:

Gonna take this moment to be petty and remind everyone that Rowling tried to do the Stephen King thing where she published new fiction under a pen name to see if she could succeed without her brand cachet, and it turned out that no she couldn't.

And J.K. Rowling’s chosen nom de plume, Robert Galbraith, is also the name of an anti-LGBTQ+ conversion therapist, who made use of electric shocks to the brain to try and associate "heterosexuality" with "pleasure"

StillFullyTerrible
Feb 16, 2020

you should have left Let's Play open for public view, Lowtax


personally i loved his works because as a weird mutant xenophile with significant mental illness the whole conceit of alien and nameless horror rendering all human attempts to make sense of the world pointless and futile and all the efforts of lame white dudes to stave off madness and mutation coming to naught was hella boss

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011


Technocrat posted:

And J.K. Rowling’s chosen nom de plume, Robert Galbraith, is also the name of an anti-LGBTQ+ conversion therapist, who made use of electric shocks to the brain to try and associate "heterosexuality" with "pleasure"

galbraith's studies into conversion therapy were only revealed publicly after his death, long after rowling had chosen a similar name

there are a lot of reasons to hate rowling for being a bigot, but this is not one of them

oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009

This post brought to you by RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS.
RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS - It's for your phoneTM #ad



OwlFancier posted:

Lovecraft's a good example too because once you know his political views you realize that literally everything he wrote is fashy as gently caress, like his entire concept of horror is the destruction of western society and the pure blood of his race by mixing with outside, alien forces and its own decadence and degeneracy. If he was alive today he'd be like a blackpill neo nazi or something.

Which is interesting about Rowling too because so much of her dogshit views come through in her writing once you read it that way.

There’s a reason the HP stands for “horrible person”

StillFullyTerrible
Feb 16, 2020

you should have left Let's Play open for public view, Lowtax


it actually stands for "holdpainless" (the h is silent)

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



OwlFancier posted:

Lovecraft's a good example too because once you know his political views you realize that literally everything he wrote is fashy as gently caress, like his entire concept of horror is the destruction of western society and the pure blood of his race by mixing with outside, alien forces and its own decadence and degeneracy. If he was alive today he'd be like a blackpill neo nazi or something.

Which is interesting about Rowling too because so much of her dogshit views come through in her writing once you read it that way.

Coincidentally the solution is to stop being so loving basic and binary. You can like art and admit that it has a really troubling subtext/comes from a garbage human.

Technocrat
Jan 30, 2011

I always finish what I sta


Arivia posted:

galbraith's studies into conversion therapy were only revealed publicly after his death, long after rowling had chosen a similar name

there are a lot of reasons to hate rowling for being a bigot, but this is not one of them

The paper "Septal stimulation for the initiation of heterosexual behavior in a homosexual male" by Robert Galbraith Heath and Charles Moan was published in the Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry in 1972, twenty seven years before his death.

I'd probably go for "it's a tenuous link because Galbraith is his middle name" instead

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011


Technocrat posted:

The paper "Septal stimulation for the initiation of heterosexual behavior in a homosexual male" by Robert Galbraith Heath and Charles Moan was published in the Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry in 1972, twenty seven years before his death.

I'd probably go for "it's a tenuous link because Galbraith is his middle name" instead

yes, and people didn't make any hay out of it until after his death

I am a trans woman and an internationally recognized expert on/survivor of conversion therapy, I have a lot of reasons to hate Rowling with what she's done recently but this "her pen name is a conversion therapist" bullshit is not one of them and I really wish people would stop because it's conflating and confusing psychiatric conversion therapy and TERF poo poo, when they are two different things that need to be confronted separately

e: if her pseudonym was john money maybe we'd be saying something, but she didn't, and we aren't

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011






Muldoon

I spent my formative years chiefly with the works of Sir Terry Pratchett, who I'm pretty sure was never revealed to actually be a horrible person. He also introduced a trans character to the Discworld continuity, who I just now realized first appeared 25 years ago.

Knormal
Nov 11, 2001



Softface posted:

Not satisfied with posting Black Hebrew Israelite stuff, Ice Cube is now moving toward the Time Cube

https://twitter.com/icecube/status/1272152663430320131


Boy the evil international cabal wasn't all that secretive with the Saturn car company, huh? Maybe that was like an intern's first op or something.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


mind the walrus posted:

Coincidentally the solution is to stop being so loving basic and binary. You can like art and admit that it has a really troubling subtext/comes from a garbage human.

Oh yeah I still like lovecraft's work, but I think it's important to approach it knowing what it is. I initially liked it because I completely missed the allegory and was just like "wow cool cosmic horror" and then once I learned he was a massive knobhead I was like "oh, uh... well actually still cool cosmic horror, just make sure you take it completely at face value and don't read anything into it"

Or maybe do, and have the reflection on his mental state be just another layer of creepiness. I dunno, lovecraft is odd in that despite being such a garbage person and having his garbage ideas inform his writing I don't think it comes through in fans of his work anything like as much as you would expect. Somehow I think most people who like his writing see a very different image in what he wrote than he did when writing it, which isn't that weird but it's weird how consistent it is. Like he managed to tap into something by being a great big racist in such a way that other people can and consistently do read his stuff and come away with a completely different feeling.

I can't think of any other example off the top of my head where the reading is so different from the writing.

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

I spent my formative years chiefly with the works of Sir Terry Pratchett, who I'm pretty sure was never revealed to actually be a horrible person. He also introduced a trans character to the Discworld continuity, who I just now realized first appeared 25 years ago.

Pratchett top tier YA author IMO. Very good messages in his work. Rowling thinks elf slavery is funny, pratchett has golem slaves organize a mutual aid society and labour union.

OwlFancier has a new favorite as of 22:56 on Jun 14, 2020

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011


The American Constitution?

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

I spent my formative years chiefly with the works of Sir Terry Pratchett, who I'm pretty sure was never revealed to actually be a horrible person. He also introduced a trans character to the Discworld continuity, who I just now realized first appeared 25 years ago.

Who? I'm genuinely curious which character this is. Vaguely related: but while the Discworld books weren't always on point with representation they're still considerably better than a lot of modern fantasy in how they deal with basically any societal situation.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Nuebot posted:

Who? I'm genuinely curious which character this is. Vaguely related: but while the Discworld books weren't always on point with representation they're still considerably better than a lot of modern fantasy in how they deal with basically any societal situation.

The only one I can think of is that Pratchett made Nobby Nobbs into a very stereotypical crossdresser in Jingo and it carried over into Fifth Elephant and possibly beyond.

I also insist that Pratchett had some real weird-rear end takes on Strong Men and democratic institutions in general.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Nuebot posted:

Who? I'm genuinely curious which character this is. Vaguely related: but while the Discworld books weren't always on point with representation they're still considerably better than a lot of modern fantasy in how they deal with basically any societal situation.

Cheery.

She and dwarves in general are sort of a mixed metaphor for racial intolerance/gender equality but also makes an extremely good allegory for trans issues too. Really ahead of his time, I dunno if he was writing it with that intent but the character is incredibly applicable today. The central conceit being that dwarves restrict everyone to presenting masculine regardless of what they personally identify as, and the conflict between dwarves wanting to present feminine and the reaction of the traditionalists is pretty eerie in how recognizable it is today.

OwlFancier has a new favorite as of 23:09 on Jun 14, 2020

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


OwlFancier posted:

Cheery.

She and dwarves in general are sort of a mixed metaphor for racial intolerance/gender equality but also makes an extremely good allegory for trans issues too. Really ahead of his time, I dunno if he was writing it with that intent but the character is incredibly applicable today.

I have to admit that I never really read the female dwarves as a take on trans issues, less as "act your gender which we are telling you what is" and more religious fundamentalism in the "better hide your ankles before all the men go insane with lust because you're such a hussy."-way, but then again the entire vibe I got off the dwarves in the Discworld books(after Pratchett got tired of using them as stand-ins for Asians) was them being a stand-in for orthodox Jews or fundamentalist Muslims.

StillFullyTerrible
Feb 16, 2020

you should have left Let's Play open for public view, Lowtax


Yeah, dwarves have different sexes but traditional dwarven culture only has a single gender, and choosing to express yourself outside that norm is frowned upon by conservative dwarves.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Oh yeah like, I would be genuinely surprised if he was writing them intending for them to be a metaphor for trans people, especially given when he wrote it, but I think what he ended up writing certainly works as a metaphor for that, and it probably not being intentional only makes it more remarkable IMO. And is another great example of the death of the author idea, what he intended to write doesn't necessarily equate to what he actually wrote, and what he actually wrote is really pretty good in a lot of ways about an issue he probably had minimal knowledge of and certainly wasn't written with knowledge of today and how the issues he was representing would manifest in tyool 2020.

I agree that it was probably written more as a take on religious fundamentalism because again, dwarves are a hodgepodge of a bunch of different ideas, but one of the things I like about his writing is that they blend together well enough that it illustrates the intersectionality of those issues.

OwlFancier has a new favorite as of 23:16 on Jun 14, 2020

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

PurpleXVI posted:

The only one I can think of is that Pratchett made Nobby Nobbs into a very stereotypical crossdresser in Jingo and it carried over into Fifth Elephant and possibly beyond.

I also insist that Pratchett had some real weird-rear end takes on Strong Men and democratic institutions in general.

Nobby slipped my mind, I was going to guess Jackrum from Monstrous Regiment, personally.

OwlFancier posted:

Cheery.

She and dwarves in general are sort of a mixed metaphor for racial intolerance/gender equality but also makes an extremely good allegory for trans issues too. Really ahead of his time, I dunno if he was writing it with that intent but the character is incredibly applicable today. The central conceit being that dwarves restrict everyone to presenting masculine regardless of what they personally identify as, and the conflict between dwarves wanting to present feminine and the reaction of the traditionalists is pretty eerie in how recognizable it is today.

Makes sense, I never saw Cheery as a read for trans, personally; but I can see it, yeah. I always viewed the dwarves as more a take on sort of "guy culture" - like how "everyone's just one of the boys" in many jobs, like in a lot of labor oriented positions like, well, mining and bucking the trend by presenting as feminine in any way really upsets people even in real life.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



Even if he wasn't intending the dwarf women as a metaphor for trans people... he was literally writing trans people. Cheery, Hamcrusher and the various others were assigned male at birth and later identified as female. You could argue that it's only because of dwarf culture that they were male-assigned in the first place, but nothing in the books actually says that; their genitals are never mentioned. Why would they be?

Given his views on other matters I doubt he would have been disappointed to find out what he'd really written anyway.

hyperhazard
Dec 4, 2011

I am the one lascivious
With magic potion niveous

Monstrous Regiment has a number of ftm characters. Sergeant Jackrum transitioned several decades ago and had a child with his boyfriend. At the end he finds his child again and goes back to him as a father. The climax of the book revolves around most of the high-ranking men in the army being afab, although Pratchett leaves it open as to whether they're women pretending to men to stay in the army, or whether they identify as men. The final scene has Polly meeting new recruits who are dressed as men. She tells them that if they're more comfortable as women, they can choose to be women; if they're more comfortable as men, they can choose to be men.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



PurpleXVI posted:

I also insist that Pratchett had some real weird-rear end takes on Strong Men and democratic institutions in general.
He kind-of did, yeah. A bit of a drawback of being so openly humanistic. Every individual and what they do can be mostly good. Bleh.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Tenebrais posted:

Even if he wasn't intending the dwarf women as a metaphor for trans people... he was literally writing trans people. Cheery, Hamcrusher and the various others were assigned male at birth and later identified as female. You could argue that it's only because of dwarf culture that they were male-assigned in the first place, but nothing in the books actually says that; their genitals are never mentioned. Why would they be?

Given his views on other matters I doubt he would have been disappointed to find out what he'd really written anyway.

Yeah that's part of the beauty of it, he writes an actually good take seemingly entirely accidentally, just extrapolating from other beliefs. The text as written works very well, IMO.

hyperhazard posted:

Monstrous Regiment has a number of ftm characters. Sergeant Jackrum transitioned several decades ago and had a child with his boyfriend. At the end he finds his child again and goes back to him as a father. The climax of the book revolves around most of the high-ranking men in the army being afab, although Pratchett leaves it open as to whether they're women pretending to men to stay in the army, or whether they identify as men. The final scene has Polly meeting new recruits who are dressed as men. She tells them that if they're more comfortable as women, they can choose to be women; if they're more comfortable as men, they can choose to be men.

Oh yeah hell I forgot about monstrous regiment, that's another good book on the subject too.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

hyperhazard posted:

Monstrous Regiment has a number of ftm characters. Sergeant Jackrum transitioned several decades ago and had a child with his boyfriend. At the end he finds his child again and goes back to him as a father. The climax of the book revolves around most of the high-ranking men in the army being afab, although Pratchett leaves it open as to whether they're women pretending to men to stay in the army, or whether they identify as men. The final scene has Polly meeting new recruits who are dressed as men. She tells them that if they're more comfortable as women, they can choose to be women; if they're more comfortable as men, they can choose to be men.

I can not recommend Monstrous Regiment enough, personally. I think it's definitely one of my favorite discworld books right up there with Reaper Man.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011






Muldoon

In the one interview I've found on the subject he says he has no idea if he knows any trans people ("I don't ask people what they're not prepared to volunteer") and that the dwarf gender stories emerged organically from the idea of a culture that coded everyone as masculine coming into contact with a culture that allowed for more than one gender. It's not a deliberate trans narrative, but it very much is one.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





mind the walrus posted:

He kind-of did, yeah. A bit of a drawback of being so openly humanistic. Every individual and what they do can be mostly good. Bleh.
ACAB except Carrot who openly warps the laws of personhood with his protagonist power.

EDIT: Now, you might bring up Vimes, but Vimes is a bastard, just a fair bastard.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Zulily Zoetrope posted:

In the one interview I've found on the subject he says he has no idea if he knows any trans people ("I don't ask people what they're not prepared to volunteer") and that the dwarf gender stories emerged organically from the idea of a culture that coded everyone as masculine coming into contact with a culture that allowed for more than one gender. It's not a deliberate trans narrative, but it very much is one.

Which makes a lot of sense given that's what's happening now, except it's a culture that allows for two genders with strict rules coming into contact with one that goes "eh, who cares?"

PetraCore posted:

ACAB except Carrot who openly warps the laws of personhood with his protagonist power.

EDIT: Now, you might bring up Vimes, but Vimes is a bastard, just a fair bastard.

A nice detail about the cop stories is that whenever they show up in someone else's book they look like, well, cops. Nosy bastards who just like to hassle you and stick you with something. It's only the fact that they're written from a sympathetic point of view in their own books that they seem agreeable.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



That's why I usually give Pratchett a pass, because it does feel like it was less an endorsement and more consistent with his overall philosophy of recognizing that every character is the hero of their own story and treating them accordingly, even when that heroic viewpoint is pretty vile in a wider context.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

PetraCore posted:

ACAB except Carrot who openly warps the laws of personhood with his protagonist power.

EDIT: Now, you might bring up Vimes, but Vimes is a bastard, just a fair bastard.

Vimes is openly a bastard. But he's also a bastard who actively tries to be harder on the ruling class when he can, even if it amounts to very little, while giving some degree of leeway to the working classes specifically because he knows who the law favors and that they better know how to game the system in their favor to abuse those below them.

d3lness
Feb 19, 2011

Unicorns are metal. Gundanium alloy to be exact...



I both hate and am unsurprised that this garbage has a positive ratio. look at the tag on the text

http://imgur.com/gallery/xKP5lBw


E: fixed the upload

d3lness has a new favorite as of 00:18 on Jun 15, 2020

RobrtDwnsySyndrome
Jul 25, 2016

It appears that the elephant is highly sensitive to the effects of LSD - a finding which may prove to be valuable in elephant-control work in Africa.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

All I wanted was some donuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoF_a0-7xVQ

T-man
Aug 22, 2010


Talk shit, get bzzzt.



The doughnuts are vegan 😈

RobrtDwnsySyndrome
Jul 25, 2016

It appears that the elephant is highly sensitive to the effects of LSD - a finding which may prove to be valuable in elephant-control work in Africa.

StillFullyTerrible posted:

it actually stands for "holdpainless" (the h is silent)

More like Old H-less.

E: I find your post to be most good, most good indeed.

RobrtDwnsySyndrome has a new favorite as of 00:45 on Jun 15, 2020

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

StillFullyTerrible posted:

personally i loved his works because as a weird mutant xenophile with significant mental illness the whole conceit of alien and nameless horror rendering all human attempts to make sense of the world pointless and futile and all the efforts of lame white dudes to stave off madness and mutation coming to naught was hella boss

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.





I was todays years old when I learned Institutionalized had an official music video.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


https://twitter.com/LibertyHangout/status/1272334675407757313

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Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

I'M NOT
TO BE

ASHAMED
WHITE

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