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Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE






Illegal Hen

I've utilized YouTube for instructions regarding zeroing my rifle, mainly because there are many different types of rifles out there.

For example, I used this video to zero the iron sights on my M4's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bliil8SDm9A

For my AK I used this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnRGM7OvjSE

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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Behind every great engineer is someone just hoping the "genius" doesn't bankrupt everyone.



Lumbermouth posted:

Does anyone have any good videos or resources about zeroing in a rifle? I'm trying my best to follow along with the discussion and don't know where to begin.

Ok, at its most basic it's as simple as shooting a target and then adjusting the sights so that the point of aim is equal to the point of impact, and then doing it again. So fire three shots and you're 3 inches to the right and two down? Well adjust the sights, try again. Three more shots and now you're 1 down 1 left? Adjust again, repeat until you're reliably on paper.

The issue you're probably having not following is when people talk about things like a 50/200 zero. Bullets travel in an arc when shot. As soon as they leave the barrel gravity starts to act on them, pulling them down towards the earth. If you're aiming dead center on a target that's 100 yards away your bullet will actually hit slightly below that. So, each zero has a distance at which it is right on. A 100 yard zero is actually aiming the gun slightly up so that the bullet will be right on the point of aim at 100 yards. Closer than 100 yards and it will be higher on the target, further than 100 yards and it will be lower.

At this point since you're shooting upwards slightly your bullet is actually describing a rainbow shape in the air. This means that for a set height on the target there are two distances where it will intersect (unless you're zeroed at the apex of the rainbow), once on the upward point of the arc and once when it's coming down. Where those distances are will depend on the specific bullet, and even the specific loading. For a lot of .223 loadings it so happens that a gun zeroed at 50 yards will also be zeroed at 200 yards, hence the "50/200 zero" nomenclature. This is really common for people who want a practical zero.

Here's a graph that shows this with .223.



Unfortunately I don't know what the exact load they were using there was (that was a fast GIS for the purposes of this explanation) but note that it isn't right on at 200. Any zero is going to be dependent on stuff like how hot the bullet is loaded, what the bullet itself weighs, etc. That said, if you're zeroed at 50/200 with bulk 55gr you'll be close enough with nice 55gr. Not right on, but in the ballpark.

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


Cyrano4747 posted:

Ok, at its most basic it's as simple as shooting a target and then adjusting the sights so that the point of aim is equal to the point of impact, and then doing it again. So fire three shots and you're 3 inches to the right and two down? Well adjust the sights, try again. Three more shots and now you're 1 down 1 left? Adjust again, repeat until you're reliably on paper.

The issue you're probably having not following is when people talk about things like a 50/200 zero. Bullets travel in an arc when shot. As soon as they leave the barrel gravity starts to act on them, pulling them down towards the earth. If you're aiming dead center on a target that's 100 yards away your bullet will actually hit slightly below that. So, each zero has a distance at which it is right on. A 100 yard zero is actually aiming the gun slightly up so that the bullet will be right on the point of aim at 100 yards. Closer than 100 yards and it will be higher on the target, further than 100 yards and it will be lower.

At this point since you're shooting upwards slightly your bullet is actually describing a rainbow shape in the air. This means that for a set height on the target there are two distances where it will intersect (unless you're zeroed at the apex of the rainbow), once on the upward point of the arc and once when it's coming down. Where those distances are will depend on the specific bullet, and even the specific loading. For a lot of .223 loadings it so happens that a gun zeroed at 50 yards will also be zeroed at 200 yards, hence the "50/200 zero" nomenclature. This is really common for people who want a practical zero.

Here's a graph that shows this with .223.



Unfortunately I don't know what the exact load they were using there was (that was a fast GIS for the purposes of this explanation) but note that it isn't right on at 200. Any zero is going to be dependent on stuff like how hot the bullet is loaded, what the bullet itself weighs, etc. That said, if you're zeroed at 50/200 with bulk 55gr you'll be close enough with nice 55gr. Not right on, but in the ballpark.

I think this video is pretty good explaining different zero distances (not the greatest presenter voice but good info).

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


Note that 50/200 or 36/300 makes several assumptions about barrel length and ammo selection and may not accurately represent reality. Unless you can actually confirm at the appropriate distance or have all of the appropriate data, all we're doing is making educated guesses.

Personally I run 50 yd zeros for my carbines and 100 yd zero for anything that's got decent magnification.

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


I do a 50/200yd zero on my 11.5" and it was great shooting steel out to 300.

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE






Illegal Hen

What's your holdover at 300y with that zero like? I normally run 36/300 with the EOTech mounted in my Block II but my next build will be with an 11.5" barrel. Debating if keeping the same zero would work.

I should note I also am using a 36/300 zero on my AK, which I haven't verified at 300y yet.

californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


i do a 50y zero with our eotech exps 3-2 on our 11.5" dd and with the eo 3x magnifier, i got first round hits at our last 2-gun match in the desert from 100 to 400 yards on full-size and 2/3 ipscs on one stage. for 55gr ammo, that gun likes ppu m193 and the hold at 300y was about 10" where we shot. to 400y i didn't even use the second dot, i just held with the center dot and it worked fine

Anonymous Robot
Jun 1, 2007

Lost his leg in Robo War I


I have a question about Howard Leight Impact Sport sound amplifying earpro. I bought a couple of pairs based on a recommendation here, because I often bring new shooters to the range and it would be nice to be able to instruct them more easily with amplified conversation. But Iím worried this isnít actually adequate ear protection.

Compared to my regular old ten dollar earpro, testing with clapping (with the mic turned off,) Iíd say that they dampen sound about half as well.

Are these not rated for use in indoor settings?

californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


with the impact sports you should definitely double up. they're not adequate even outdoors with a great seal

Tyler Whitney
Jan 21, 2020

Why don't you make it sing?


Anonymous Robot posted:

I have a question about Howard Leight Impact Sport sound amplifying earpro. I bought a couple of pairs based on a recommendation here, because I often bring new shooters to the range and it would be nice to be able to instruct them more easily with amplified conversation. But Iím worried this isnít actually adequate ear protection.

Compared to my regular old ten dollar earpro, testing with clapping (with the mic turned off,) Iíd say that they dampen sound about half as well.

Are these not rated for use in indoor settings?

22db isn't a whole lot of protection; you definitely need to double up.

For calculating doubling up db you're best off with this:

quote:

Add 5 dBA to the highest noise reduction rating of the higher-rated hearing device. For example, if youíre using an earplug with a 30 NRR and an earmuff with a 26 NRR, you would add 5 dB to the 30 NRR for the earplug. Your protection level would then increase to 35 dB, assuming the earplug is worn properly. This simplified method of calculating double protection dBA is based on OSHA recommendations.

Anonymous Robot
Jun 1, 2007

Lost his leg in Robo War I


Thank you for the info. Iíll pack some foam plugs.

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

Anonymous Robot posted:

I have a question about Howard Leight Impact Sport sound amplifying earpro. I bought a couple of pairs based on a recommendation here, because I often bring new shooters to the range and it would be nice to be able to instruct them more easily with amplified conversation. But Iím worried this isnít actually adequate ear protection.

Compared to my regular old ten dollar earpro, testing with clapping (with the mic turned off,) Iíd say that they dampen sound about half as well.

Are these not rated for use in indoor settings?

The Impact Sports are only 22 NRR and you should definitely not wear them indoors, at least not without doubling up. Probably fine for pistol and rimfire outdoors but IDK if I'd trust them while shooting a rifle.

The Howard Leight Impact Pro has a 30 NRR and I had no trouble shooting 308 indoors with those although they're bulkier than the sports and may interfere with cheek weld on a long gun.

poeticoddity
Jan 14, 2007
"How nice - to feel nothing and still get full credit for being alive." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five

Anonymous Robot posted:

I have a question about Howard Leight Impact Sport sound amplifying earpro. I bought a couple of pairs based on a recommendation here, because I often bring new shooters to the range and it would be nice to be able to instruct them more easily with amplified conversation. But Iím worried this isnít actually adequate ear protection.

Compared to my regular old ten dollar earpro, testing with clapping (with the mic turned off,) Iíd say that they dampen sound about half as well.

Are these not rated for use in indoor settings?

Electronic muffs really shine when you're doubled up.
If nobody's shooting, you crank up the amplification and actually have a comfortable conversation, but you end up with significantly better protection than just plugs alone or muffs alone.
Being doubled up also means you can adjust the position on your muffs if needed without going zero-protection, and it makes the repetitive sound of gunfire at indoor ranges less draining to deal with.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Just adding another recommendation for doubling up. Indoor ranges are oppressively loud.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Why can't we all just use mrads with their .1 increments. Does every measurement system in the US have to be the most obnoxious. Quarter moa, half moa. All split up into a base 60 system which is supposed to mesh with our stupid imperial inches in base 12 and feet in base what the gently caress ever, because who the gently caress knows how many are in a mile.

I'll take the MRAD system thank you very much.

ThinkFear
Sep 14, 2007



Could be worse, there are always mil reticles with moa adjustments.

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


Android Apocalypse posted:

What's your holdover at 300y with that zero like? I normally run 36/300 with the EOTech mounted in my Block II but my next build will be with an 11.5" barrel. Debating if keeping the same zero would work.

I should note I also am using a 36/300 zero on my AK, which I haven't verified at 300y yet.



Here is a pic from Sterlok. Basically you just hold for the head at 300(9.5~" high like sushi was saying). 400 is off the target by almost a target length. 200 and in is center mass, 300 (the dot is almost the same size as the head for estimating range). DD 11.5" with PPU M193.

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000



Talk about timing. I wear Impact Sports but with gel inserts. I was at the (indoor) range today put on my PPE, then go into the little airlock room between the range and the rest of gun store. Door behind me closes, door in front of me opens and I'm instantly aware of the fact that I forgot my foamies under the headset. There's a guy shooting his comped 8" AR15 right in the lane next to me. Ugh. I had to step back outside to put them in. Even with both on, I had to step away when he was shooting from the concussion alone. Easily the loudest thing I've heard at an indoor range.

The sounds amplification still works fine with foamies underneath, but I wouldn't wear the headset by itself unless I was shooting subsonic ammo outside or something.

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


Nitrousoxide posted:

Why can't we all just use mrads with their .1 increments. Does every measurement system in the US have to be the most obnoxious. Quarter moa, half moa. All split up into a base 60 system which is supposed to mesh with our stupid imperial inches in base 12 and feet in base what the gently caress ever, because who the gently caress knows how many are in a mile.

I'll take the MRAD system thank you very much.

Meh, long distance shooting is the same no matter what measurement system you use. I personally find the math easier in mils but I can work in moa if I need to.
If you really want to get technical you actually can adjust more precisely with 1/4 moa turrets then .1 mil ones.

Mathematically, 1 MOA = .3 mils so if we are trying to adjust 1 moa with our respective turrets, we get:

1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 = 1 moa = .3 mils
.1 + .1 + .1 = .3 mil = 1 moa

You get 4 adjustments vs 3 for the same angle, which is a potential reason why someone might pick a moa setup.

ThinkFear posted:

Could be worse, there are always mil reticles with moa adjustments.

Mismatched reticle and turret setups should be burned at the stake.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





MantisClaw posted:

Meh, long distance shooting is the same no matter what measurement system you use. I personally find the math easier in mils but I can work in moa if I need to.
If you really want to get technical you actually can adjust more precisely with 1/4 moa turrets then .1 mil ones.

Mathematically, 1 MOA = .3 mils so if we are trying to adjust 1 moa with our respective turrets, we get:

1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 = 1 moa = .3 mils
.1 + .1 + .1 = .3 mil = 1 moa

You get 4 adjustments vs 3 for the same angle, which is a potential reason why someone might pick a moa setup.


Mismatched reticle and turret setups should be burned at the stake.

If you want more precision they could always use mils with a reduction gear to the next decimal point. There's no reason why you have to use this crazy half quarter system.

Lumbermouth
Mar 6, 2008

GREG IS BIG NOW




Cyrano4747 posted:

Ok, at its most basic it's as simple as shooting a target and then adjusting the sights so that the point of aim is equal to the point of impact, and then doing it again. So fire three shots and you're 3 inches to the right and two down? Well adjust the sights, try again. Three more shots and now you're 1 down 1 left? Adjust again, repeat until you're reliably on paper.

The issue you're probably having not following is when people talk about things like a 50/200 zero. Bullets travel in an arc when shot. As soon as they leave the barrel gravity starts to act on them, pulling them down towards the earth. If you're aiming dead center on a target that's 100 yards away your bullet will actually hit slightly below that. So, each zero has a distance at which it is right on. A 100 yard zero is actually aiming the gun slightly up so that the bullet will be right on the point of aim at 100 yards. Closer than 100 yards and it will be higher on the target, further than 100 yards and it will be lower.

At this point since you're shooting upwards slightly your bullet is actually describing a rainbow shape in the air. This means that for a set height on the target there are two distances where it will intersect (unless you're zeroed at the apex of the rainbow), once on the upward point of the arc and once when it's coming down. Where those distances are will depend on the specific bullet, and even the specific loading. For a lot of .223 loadings it so happens that a gun zeroed at 50 yards will also be zeroed at 200 yards, hence the "50/200 zero" nomenclature. This is really common for people who want a practical zero.

Here's a graph that shows this with .223.



Unfortunately I don't know what the exact load they were using there was (that was a fast GIS for the purposes of this explanation) but note that it isn't right on at 200. Any zero is going to be dependent on stuff like how hot the bullet is loaded, what the bullet itself weighs, etc. That said, if you're zeroed at 50/200 with bulk 55gr you'll be close enough with nice 55gr. Not right on, but in the ballpark.

Thanks a lot! I think this'll also make more sense once I actually get a chance to go to a range and do it. It's hard conceptualizing these steps when you don't have any real reference for them.

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

Lumbermouth posted:

Thanks a lot! I think this'll also make more sense once I actually get a chance to go to a range and do it. It's hard conceptualizing these steps when you don't have any real reference for them.

You can get really into the specifics of it but really all you need to remember for basic purposes is "shoot target, see where hole appears, adjust optic so that the hole appears closer to where I intended". If your bullet hole (point of impact) appears four inches below the center of the target and two to the left then you need to adjust the optic a certain amount of clicks to the right and twice that many clicks up. Ideally you would use knowledge of the adjustment distance of your optic and your distance to the target to determine how many clicks you need to use exactly but if you haven't figured all that out then you can just guess, shoot another group to see where it lands, and adjust again. Repeat until you're right where you want to be and you're done. This obviously uses more ammo than you would otherwise but you really don't have to know anything to do it.

Lumbermouth
Mar 6, 2008

GREG IS BIG NOW




my kinda ape posted:

You can get really into the specifics of it but really all you need to remember for basic purposes is "shoot target, see where hole appears, adjust optic so that the hole appears closer to where I intended". If your bullet hole (point of impact) appears four inches below the center of the target and two to the left then you need to adjust the optic a certain amount of clicks to the right and twice that many clicks up. Ideally you would use knowledge of the adjustment distance of your optic and your distance to the target to determine how many clicks you need to use exactly but if you haven't figured all that out then you can just guess, shoot another group to see where it lands, and adjust again. Repeat until you're right where you want to be and you're done. This obviously uses more ammo than you would otherwise but you really don't have to know anything to do it.

Well right now all I have is a Mossberg 151, so that should at least be cheap.

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

Lumbermouth posted:

Well right now all I have is a Mossberg 151, so that should at least be cheap.

Oh yeah for that if you're zeroing at 25 or 50 yards with a 22lr I'd just do the guessing method. Shouldn't take long at all and it'll cost you like a dollar at worst

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009



my kinda ape posted:

You can get really into the specifics of it but really all you need to remember for basic purposes is "shoot target, see where hole appears, adjust optic so that the hole appears closer to where I intended". If your bullet hole (point of impact) appears four inches below the center of the target and two to the left then you need to adjust the optic a certain amount of clicks to the right and twice that many clicks up. Ideally you would use knowledge of the adjustment distance of your optic and your distance to the target to determine how many clicks you need to use exactly but if you haven't figured all that out then you can just guess, shoot another group to see where it lands, and adjust again. Repeat until you're right where you want to be and you're done. This obviously uses more ammo than you would otherwise but you really don't have to know anything to do it.
If you have a ranging reticle you don't even need to think in inches or cm. Simply measure how much off you are using the reticle and then adjust that much on the turrets.

So you take a shot and then see this in the scope you just adjust 3.5 up and 2 left, no need for math or walking the shot in.

Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?




I let the RSO help me today because at $1.50+ a round I'm not too proud to ask.

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009



<>

I like turtles fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Sep 29, 2020

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I like turtles posted:

I have found much success in life by embracing and proclaiming my ignorance, but desire to learn.

rump buttman
Feb 13, 2018

I just wish I had time for one more bowl of chili





I am considering building a 80% kit gun (steel 1911?)and live in WA. I am confused on if WA residents can legally build a 80% gun. I know WA just past legislation about ghost guns. I think building my own gun would be a cool project but I donít want to come anywhere close to breaking a firearm law. Especially since I can just buy a prebuilt gat legally.


Iím not prohibited in anyway from owning a gun if this site is accurate. (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/who-can-have-a-gun/categories-of-prohibited-people/)

I am a legal citizen, no run ins with the law (beside a few minor speeding tickets) and I have never used drugs.

So goons, to your knowledge, could I legally build myself a gun I intend to keep forever?

Tyro
Nov 10, 2009


rump buttman posted:

I am considering building a 80% kit gun (steel 1911?)and live in WA. I am confused on if WA residents can legally build a 80% gun. I know WA just past legislation about ghost guns. I think building my own gun would be a cool project but I don’t want to come anywhere close to breaking a firearm law. Especially since I can just buy a prebuilt gat legally.


I’m not prohibited in anyway from owning a gun if this site is accurate. (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/who-can-have-a-gun/categories-of-prohibited-people/)

I am a legal citizen, no run ins with the law (beside a few minor speeding tickets) and I have never used drugs.

So goons, to your knowledge, could I legally build myself a gun I intend to keep forever?

I don't know the answer but am curious as a fellow Washingtonian. If it turns out that you can't, you can probably get most of the same level of satisfaction out of building up a 1911 from a bare frame, which you can buy from a FFL. Still a lot of hours of hand fitting and such to end up with a complete pistol.

Anonymous Robot
Jun 1, 2007

Lost his leg in Robo War I


Picked up a new-in-box Mini 14 today. Brought it home, loaded a magazine of .223 snap caps into it and started cycling the action. After two cycles, I had a failure to feed (probably my fault, I was holding the carbine upright,) and now the bolt is absolutely seized up in closed position. I guess Iíll learn how to take it apart now...

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Behind every great engineer is someone just hoping the "genius" doesn't bankrupt everyone.



Try mortaring it open.

Anonymous Robot
Jun 1, 2007

Lost his leg in Robo War I


Cyrano4747 posted:

Try mortaring it open.

That did the trick, thanks. I am going to cycle this action with snap caps a lot more before I trust it with a live cartridge.

rump buttman
Feb 13, 2018

I just wish I had time for one more bowl of chili





Tyro posted:

If it turns out that you can't, you can probably get most of the same level of satisfaction out of building up a 1911 from a bare frame, which you can buy from a FFL. Still a lot of hours of hand fitting and such to end up with a complete pistol.

drat, I hadnít even considered that. Thatís probably going to be what I to do. The little bit of hassle and little less machining to make sure itís all on the up and up seems like a fair trade off for my dumbass.

I assume 1911s (and flocks) are the most common pistol frames to do this kind of project on, are any other pistol models as paint by numbers?

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




rump buttman posted:

drat, I hadnít even considered that. Thatís probably going to be what I to do. The little bit of hassle and little less machining to make sure itís all on the up and up seems like a fair trade off for my dumbass.

I assume 1911s (and flocks) are the most common pistol frames to do this kind of project on, are any other pistol models as paint by numbers?

I wouldn't call a 1911 build "paint by numbers."

rump buttman
Feb 13, 2018

I just wish I had time for one more bowl of chili





poopgiggle posted:

I wouldn't call a 1911 build "paint by numbers."

Bad wording. Iím not trying to be diminutive towards the skill needed to put one together. Let alone for people who have already accomplished it or people who are great at it. I am also keenly aware of the experience and talent needed to go from decent -> good -> to dead nuts in craftsman type work.

I tried to mean, as a pre planned kit/easily available parts vs machine everything from stock or not being able to find springs or something.

Gunshow Poophole
Sep 14, 2008

OMBUDSMAN
Posters' Local 42069





Clapping Larry

Anonymous Robot posted:

Picked up a new-in-box Mini 14 today. Brought it home, loaded a magazine of .223 snap caps into it and started cycling the action. After two cycles, I had a failure to feed (probably my fault, I was holding the carbine upright,) and now the bolt is absolutely seized up in closed position. I guess Iíll learn how to take it apart now...

Yeesh I just picked up same and I haven't even had the chance to try it out uh... hope I have my snap caps to hand.

Peeches
May 24, 2018



3 co-workers sort of caught me off guard today on our daily zoom meeting. They all want to get a CPL (MI) and they want me to help them get prepared and go to the range. It's not a secret I shoot, I frequent there IDPA/ USPSA matches ( whenever we have those again, thanks quarentine).

I've been shooting for 3 years and I feel okay about showing them the basics, but would it be crazy to ask them to do the NRA pistol shooting class first? I took a sort of in depth cpl class that required in and I actually learned a lot ( it's not been offered anymore)

2 of them have never shot and 1 is a country girl who's familiar with shotguns. I'm a safety nerd first and foremost. I trust them to take it seriously.

Also, can anyone recommend a good " first time at the range" type video? Like etiquette and whatnot.

Any other advice?
I'm looking forward to introducing 3 new shooter to the gun world, want to get this right. Thanks

Edit: one person already declined the NRA class on philosophical grounds

Peeches fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jun 9, 2020

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Behind every great engineer is someone just hoping the "genius" doesn't bankrupt everyone.



Anonymous Robot posted:

That did the trick, thanks. I am going to cycle this action with snap caps a lot more before I trust it with a live cartridge.

FWIW there are huge differences between hand cycling and firing. Getting a snap cap stuck doesnít really imply that it wonít feed with real ammo.

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rump buttman
Feb 13, 2018

I just wish I had time for one more bowl of chili





Tyro posted:

I don't know the answer but am curious as a fellow Washingtonian.

I got impatient (should have just done this instead of ask the internet) I called up a local place that sells 80% lowers and ask about the situation. They said it is still legal if you never intend on selling the gun. Grain of salt and all of that.

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