Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Mordja
Apr 26, 2014




Hell Gem

RBA Starblade posted:

The Spartan program and what they're really there for or why they really exist is kept secret from nearly everyone (including nearly all the military, who for all they really know, outside of some higherups, they're just good soldiers and it's all a next-gen weapons platform thing) and when the Covenant war ends, and the UNSC relinquishes control back to the civilian government, they immediately go "so how did you make those Mister Chiefs anyway, we should probably have more", realize it was a mega crime against humanity, and immediately start looking into trying people for said crimes, and the Spartan program changes into a "give volunteering really good soldiers cybernetic enhancements" program.

Halo 1 through Reach the backstory is mostly as you say, the outer colonies want self-rule, the Earth government doesn't want to let them because Earth can't sustain itself without them, and rather than full on war or granting independence they look into assassinations and killteams by making the Spartan program (this part's kind of a "but why" though), which is then sort of like a lucky break that they can move into assassinations of the Covenant high command instead. Halo 4 changes it so it's apparently written in our dna to eventually want to create Master Chief, jackoff suit and all, after we lost a war with the ancient aliens who punished us by turning us into monkey men but just in case the alien megavirus monster attacks again, they want us to be able to defend ourselves in the future since we were runners-up in dealing with it, so we were going to sooner or later anyway. No, really.

Isn't Johnson technically an early/proto-Spartan? Were they made for use against the colonies also ore just the Master Chef ones?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.
Games Idiot Court Jester


Mordja posted:

Isn't Johnson technically an early/proto-Spartan? Were they made for use against the colonies also ore just the Master Chef ones?

Yep. Johnson's been retconned a few times because no one wanted to accept that Bungie just brought the VA and character back in Halo 2 after getting infected by space zombies and/or exploding because he owned, so right now he's technically a Spartan 1 when it went by another codename instead (as opposed to Chief, a Spartan 2) who prior to the games joined in raided rebel bomb-making facilities and groups (both sides were in not totally open warfare but not cold war either). He's only been enhanced a little bit comparatively, and as a consenting adult. Nearly all of this comes from spinoff books, ingame, the only thing you are told about why/how Johnson isn't dead on Halo is "it's classified, don't think about it and have fun shooting the battle rifle instead".

Actually, nearly all the lovely, especially stupid stuff comes from the spinoff books and Halo 4 onward.

Super Waffle
Sep 25, 2007

I'm a hermaphrodite and my parents (40K nerds) named me Slaanesh, THANKS MOM

For more information, check out the Halo novels!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEWEdIcx1DI

Ashsaber
Oct 24, 2010

Deploying Swordbreakers!

College Slice

RBA Starblade posted:

The Spartan program and what they're really there for or why they really exist is kept secret from nearly everyone (including nearly all the military, who for all they really know, outside of some higherups, they're just good soldiers and it's all a next-gen weapons platform thing) and when the Covenant war ends, and the UNSC relinquishes control back to the civilian government, they immediately go "so how did you make those Mister Chiefs anyway, we should probably have more", realize it was a mega crime against humanity, and immediately start looking into trying people for said crimes, and the Spartan program changes into a "give volunteering really good soldiers cybernetic enhancements" program.

Halo 1 through Reach the backstory is mostly as you say, the outer colonies want self-rule, the Earth government doesn't want to let them because Earth can't sustain itself without them, and rather than full on war or granting independence they look into assassinations and killteams by making the Spartan program (this part's kind of a "but why" though), which is then sort of like a lucky break that they can move into assassinations of the Covenant high command instead. Halo 4 changes it so it's apparently written in our dna to eventually want to create Master Chief, jackoff suit and all, after we lost a war with the ancient aliens who punished us by turning us into monkey men but just in case the alien megavirus monster attacks again, they want us to be able to defend ourselves in the future since we were runners-up in dealing with it, so we were going to sooner or later anyway. No, really.

Wow, that's stupid. My only recent interaction with the series has been watching the best of Woolie Vs videos, and I thought the explanation that the secret Reach terminals was alluding to was a bunch of humanity's AIs were doing shifty stuff behind the backs of the humans, decided that even if they had no idea if there was intelligent life out there they needed to prepare for aliens that are A) hostile, and B) have overwhelming tech superiority.

IIRC the AIs eventually decided to make humans think they were coming up with stuff while they were being guided to do what the AIs wanted, with the implication that the Spartan program was meant for alien wrecking with the reasons presented to humans was 'do it to save the economy '.

That was my takeaway, but it was apparently much, much stupider.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Ashsaber posted:

Wow, that's stupid. My only recent interaction with the series has been watching the best of Woolie Vs videos, and I thought the explanation that the secret Reach terminals was alluding to was a bunch of humanity's AIs were doing shifty stuff behind the backs of the humans, decided that even if they had no idea if there was intelligent life out there they needed to prepare for aliens that are A) hostile, and B) have overwhelming tech superiority.

IIRC the AIs eventually decided to make humans think they were coming up with stuff while they were being guided to do what the AIs wanted, with the implication that the Spartan program was meant for alien wrecking with the reasons presented to humans was 'do it to save the economy '.

That was my takeaway, but it was apparently much, much stupider.

I'm reminded of the intelligent yogurt section of Love, Death & Robots.

iospace
Jan 19, 2038




There's not enough Eve love on here. I have a few favorite ships, but let's start with my mainstay:

The Sabre


It's easily the ship I fly the most, and consequentially the one I've lost the most. What makes it special? Well, in Eve, there's three major forms of FTL travel: gates, jump drives, and, most commonly, warp drives. In Eve parlance, tackle is the prevention of the use of the latter two, and the Sabre can tackle in a 20km radius sphere, preventing all warping and jumping within it (a few ships can ignore this, but those are specialized).

It's a fun ship, especially when flown properly, and can get you and your buddies some shiny killmails.


The Astero


There are very few ships in Eve that can do two roles at once, and this tiny ship is one of them. The Astero is a great scouting ship, and is a capable PVP ship without sacrificing its scouting ability. You can even make it have a third role and not lose much combat ability, but why would you at that point?

Either way, it's one of my mainstay ships, a great scout, and looks cool as gently caress.

I'll have more later.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.
Games Idiot Court Jester


Ashsaber posted:

Wow, that's stupid. My only recent interaction with the series has been watching the best of Woolie Vs videos, and I thought the explanation that the secret Reach terminals was alluding to was a bunch of humanity's AIs were doing shifty stuff behind the backs of the humans, decided that even if they had no idea if there was intelligent life out there they needed to prepare for aliens that are A) hostile, and B) have overwhelming tech superiority.

IIRC the AIs eventually decided to make humans think they were coming up with stuff while they were being guided to do what the AIs wanted, with the implication that the Spartan program was meant for alien wrecking with the reasons presented to humans was 'do it to save the economy '.

That was my takeaway, but it was apparently much, much stupider.

That WAS what Bungie wanted to leave off with (along with being a gigantic Marathon reference) though the civil war thing was happening anyway, but nobody at 343 read or cared about that part lol. Reach tried to retcon a few different things that 343 grossly misunderstood or didn't notice and instead made a lot dumber.

ConanTheLibrarian
Aug 13, 2004


dis buch is late

Fallen Rib

A 6 month old spaceship thread with no mention of Stargate? The aliens in that show knew that once your tech is advanced enough, there is no excuse for a lack of aesthetics.


The OG Ha'tak loving rules. Why would your ship need a front or back when it has reactionless engines?



It's big.



It's mean.



It's bristling with guns.




Thor's original ship was badass too, moreso than the sleek, chromed-up Asgard ships that followed it. Unfortunately there aren't many decent pics of it, probably due to the age of the source material.

Naturally his ship has a mjolnir thing going on.



Lightshow:



What do you do when someone breaks the protected planets treaty? Beam their poo poo the gently caress outta there lol:

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012



Thor is going on about having advanced enough to understand the true meaning of the Asgard, and Sam is all "uh, no, we're a slightly more advanced civilization, and we kinda broke your thing, and well, now..."

"Goa'uld?"

"Goa'uld."

*flies the gently caress over from the next galaxy to stomp on Heru'urs poo poo*

Stanley Tucheetos
May 15, 2012



Speaking of Stargate ships I'd like to add in the Daedalus. Being originally armed with railguns and missiles it was also cool as all hell. Transporting nukes aboard ships was cool while it lasted as well. Unfortunately when it got upgraded with asgard beams it lost a lot of its cool factor even though it could solo entire fleets on its own for the most part. Its kind of similiar to Galactica with the fighter bays and using ballistic weaponry which is another reason I like it. Basically railguns and missiles can make any ship great.


Stanley Tucheetos fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Oct 28, 2020

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Don't hotlink images.

And with some images, especially on Wikis, you can't just plop their URL into imgur because they have some trash at the end. Delete everything after the file extension and it'll work.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



ConanTheLibrarian posted:

A 6 month old spaceship thread with no mention of Stargate? The aliens in that show knew that once your tech is advanced enough, there is no excuse for a lack of aesthetics.


The OG Ha'tak loving rules. Why would your ship need a front or back when it has reactionless engines?



It's big.



It's mean.



It's bristling with guns.




Thor's original ship was badass too, moreso than the sleek, chromed-up Asgard ships that followed it. Unfortunately there aren't many decent pics of it, probably due to the age of the source material.

Naturally his ship has a mjolnir thing going on.



Lightshow:



What do you do when someone breaks the protected planets treaty? Beam their poo poo the gently caress outta there lol:



Or that one where they're on the Alternative Earth that is being invaded by Apothis and they speed run the first Asgard episode and a single Asgard ship is enough to have Apothis run away the second they detect it.

HAmbONE
May 11, 2004

I know where the XBox is!!

Smellrose

This thread should have more Eve Online. Each race has itís own distinct style but Amarr are the best mix of practicality and organic lines. Also gently caress ammo, lasers everywhere.

The best Amarr ship? Space bug https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Prorator
There are better shots of it as well as some large images of all ship types. Unfortunately Iím enjoying SA on an old iPad so look them up

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

I was wandering around ArtStation and found an artist, Ansel HsiaoPro who make Star Wars ship designs.

A lot of his stuff falls under the "5 million variations of star destroyer/Millennium Falcon/Slave 1" or "normal ship, but with so many guns/missiles there would be no room for the pilot" that you see a LOT with Star Wars fanart, but a couple stood out.


Heavy drop barge - if the empire made Thunderbird 2 it would be this ship. Has huge pointless wings, no idea why, but I love how the cargo bay extends itself slightly for the doors to open.






Tie Demolisher - I really like the underslung fuselage on this, but it also suffers from MoreGun syndrome. Though in this case, it's more bombs.






All-Terrain Shock Enforcer - like an AT-ST but with MoreGun syndrome.




All-Terrain Siege Platform - did I say MoreGun syndrome? This thing is the living embodiment of the idea of MoreGun.




Don't talk to me or my son ever again


Intersector-class Sloop - if the empire made the Millennium Falcon. I love the pointless little wings on it:



Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jan 18, 2021

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

Do AT-ATs sleep on their side, on their knees, or totally standing up?

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




While walking along in desert sand, you suddenly look down and see an AT-AT crawling toward you. You reach down and flip it over onto its back. The AT-AT lies there, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs, trying to turn itself over, but it cannot do so without your help. You are not helping. Why?

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

Tulip posted:

While walking along in desert sand, you suddenly look down and see an AT-AT crawling toward you. You reach down and flip it over onto its back. The AT-AT lies there, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs, trying to turn itself over, but it cannot do so without your help. You are not helping. Why?

Gonk.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

Tape two Gonk droids together for a baby AT-AT.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!




Gonk centipede

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Megillah Gorilla posted:

I was wandering around ArtStation and found an artist, Ansel HsiaoPro who make Star Wars ship designs.

A lot of his stuff falls under the "5 million variations of star destroyer/Millennium Falcon/Slave 1" or "normal ship, but with so many guns/missiles there would be no room for the pilot" that you see a LOT with Star Wars fanart, but a couple stood out.


Heavy drop barge - if the empire made Thunderbird 2 it would be this ship. Has huge pointless wings, no idea why, but I love how the cargo bay extends itself slightly for the doors to open.






Tie Demolisher - I really like the underslung fuselage on this, but it also suffers from MoreGun syndrome. Though in this case, it's more bombs.






All-Terrain Shock Enforcer - like an AT-ST but with MoreGun syndrome.




All-Terrain Siege Platform - did I say MoreGun syndrome? This thing is the living embodiment of the idea of MoreGun.




Don't talk to me or my son ever again


Intersector-class Sloop - if the empire made the Millennium Falcon. I love the pointless little wings on it:





These designs are all ridiculous and, for example, completely negate the point of the TIE Fighter thematically, cinematically, and in-universe design-wise. BUT, they are exactly what Space Nazis would design if they had unlimited resources.

1secondpersecond
Nov 12, 2008


Back in 1998, I thought the "asteroid belt fighter" ships from the Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain intro video were really cool looking. The design does a good job telegraphing that they're short-range, that they're single-purpose, and that they're not friendly.



In a completely different medium, one of the music videos for the new Gojira album has a cool spaceship design that clearly draws on the aesthetic trend of "FTL ships have leading and trailing rings for an Alcubierre drive" that's been prevalent in video games for the last 5 years or so.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

Listen to him, men. He's just crazy enough to do it!


Thereís a trailer for a new Netflix movie called Stowaway, and itís got a neat ďrealisticĒ spaceship for traveling to Mars.

Scott Manley did a video about it because he consulted on its design and even used Kerbal Space Program to demonstrate how it would work.

https://youtu.be/WCwXJMVVdck

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






Can't watch the whole thing right now but even at a glance that's by far the most accurate-to-current-ideas rotating mars ship I've seen in tv/movie. No complicated separate-gravity-wheel, just rotate the whole thing and have two pods connected by a lightweight cable at a very long distance to avoid small-Coriolis-issues. Great, I'll have something to take screenshots of when talking about that design.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

Listen to him, men. He's just crazy enough to do it!


MikeJF posted:

Can't watch the whole thing right now but even at a glance that's by far the most accurate-to-current-ideas rotating mars ship I've seen in tv/movie. No complicated separate-gravity-wheel, just rotate the whole thing and have two pods connected by a lightweight cable at a very long distance to avoid small-Coriolis-issues. Great, I'll have something to take screenshots of when talking about that design.

Yeah, Scott talks about how itís accurate and has historical support while also allowing them to film with a reasonable budget.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Brawnfire posted:

I love any ship where the artist clearly thought "gently caress, this is a penis" and began adding elements to reduce the phallic quality but it keeps getting dickier
Does real life count as a medium?

Bucnasti posted:

Yeah, Scott talks about how it’s accurate and has historical support while also allowing them to film with a reasonable budget.
I really appreciated the clip of what it looked like when filming 2001. Everybody always talks about The Shining or the moon landing with Kubrick. I hadn't actually seen what they had build for the centrifuge of the Discovery.


Has anyone mentioned Discovery One? I think I saw 2010 before 2001, so I'll post that:



A dust-covered, slowly spinning, abandoned space ship. All those aboard are dead or ... gone. What happened here?

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Vavrek posted:

Does real life count as a medium?

I really appreciated the clip of what it looked like when filming 2001. Everybody always talks about The Shining or the moon landing with Kubrick. I hadn't actually seen what they had build for the centrifuge of the Discovery.


Has anyone mentioned Discovery One? I think I saw 2010 before 2001, so I'll post that:



A dust-covered, slowly spinning, abandoned space ship. All those aboard are dead or ... gone. What happened here?

I just watched a thing about 2010 last night and It made me want to go back and watch it but its nowhere. The Russian ship is pretty cool with its rotating section. I think that was the first time I'd seen that before.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


I love 2010. The synth music. The loneliness of deep space. Roy Schieder. The whole vibe.

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


twistedmentat posted:

I just watched a thing about 2010 last night and It made me want to go back and watch it but its nowhere. The Russian ship is pretty cool with its rotating section. I think that was the first time I'd seen that before.

Yeah, the contrast between the Leonov and the Discovery is great

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Sir DonkeyPunch posted:

Yeah, the contrast between the Leonov and the Discovery is great

I always wondering did they have magnetic shoes to move outside of the rotating section? When Bowman is walking in the suit, hes moving with such careful precision I assumed he was, but only the black spots on the floor were magnetic.

That reminds me, I am totally okay with gravity fields or plating or whatever magic wand tech they need to use to not have everything be zero G. Even the Expanse, which takes this all into account, still has a lot of reasons not to just have everything floating around.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009



In all fairness, constant acceleration and rotating sections are the only two ways to manage artificial gravity without space magic. As far as I'm aware Expanse is the only sci-fi show to have ever opted for acceleration.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Bug Squash posted:

In all fairness, constant acceleration and rotating sections are the only two ways to manage artificial gravity without space magic. As far as I'm aware Expanse is the only sci-fi show to have ever opted for acceleration.

They have rotational gravity on stations.

a sexual elk
May 16, 2007


Star Trek ships should have had a rotating saucer section and rotating main hull(?) outsides the pylons. Any section that didnít have a full time crew would be weightless with mag boots. Hell center core of the saucer could have been storage/ warehousing and landing bays where you wouldnít want gravity anyways.

a sexual elk fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Apr 14, 2021

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Are there any equivalents to Star Wars's visual dictionaries or cross-section books for other sci-fi franchises?



I love these books and how they give you a look at the whole designs and even contextualize things in terms of what the space inside is shaped like and how people fit in them, and they're even putting out these "owner's manual" books that seem neat, but I've already got so much Star Wars in my brain, and I really want to see a broader range of things rather than piling up more on top of the one big franchise I already know.

The closest I've seen outside of Star Wars are books on Lego spaceships, which are really neat, but they're not exactly what I want.

https://www.amazon.com/LEGO-Book-Ne...465467149&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/LEGO-Space-Building-Peter-Reid/dp/1593275218


And then they also can circle around back to Star Wars again.



There might be some Trek stuff out there, but I've never seen any Trek material contextualizing ships in human terms. Everything's just inconceivably large.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



I always want to buy those SW books but they're all so expensive.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



I recommend used books stores. Those books are sold in hardcover so they'll last, and you might even find one that hasn't really been touched, because they put out new books with stuff from the newer movies that pushes the older books off shelves.

There's also online used book sellers which can be a little sketchier and you have to keep an eye on the combined price plus shipping price.

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Bo..._-srp1-_-title7
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Bo..._-srp1-_-title3
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Bo..._-srp1-_-title8

jeeves
May 27, 2001

Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire


You're in luck, as there are some cool insane Trek fans. I personally love the floor plans made by super-Trek nerd Franz Joseph made up in the 1970s and then submitted to Roddenberry, who made a quick buck by allowing him to license them. Then in Star Trek I and II, you can actually see the blueprints used as props on the screens in the background of the bridge.

Recently, another superfan has edited those 1970s floor plans and made them a bit more logical and also matched them to certain episode scenes:



He also has other floorplans of other TOS-era ships that Franz Joseph made up, including the early no-engineering section ship that was turned into the Reliant for ST II. Most of the others are pretty meh, but the three-nacelle Dreadnaught version of a Federation ship is really interesting as it has the bridge NOT exposed on top but buried in the saucer, along with like flag offices and tactical stations surrounding it and such.

Edit - the reason there isn't many good books made is because the Trek license has been a quagmire of rights issues until recently. The movie ships were different licensing than the tv show ships, etc. Also, since the JJ Abrams movie in 2009, the people behind Star Trek's visual effects really have done a 180 from having some of the most thought-out and super nerdy effort put into the designs of ships to just having the ships be lazy cgi things designed to look cool. Basically designs by idiots for idiots.

Case in point, this is what the insides of ships look like in Star Trek Discovery.

jeeves fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 18, 2021

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012



Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise was favorite childhood reading material, alongside the Star Trek TNG Technical Manual. As a matter of fact, the saucer section crash in Generations was first described six years prior un the TNGTM.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






Star trek is full of manuals and reference stuff. The TNG tech manual is legendary but incredibly dense, and the DS9 tech manual was a bit lighter. And of course the TNG deck plans were ridiculously detailed.



I haven't read it but the Haynes Guide to the Enterprise might be up your alley.







SlothfulCobra posted:

There might be some Trek stuff out there, but I've never seen any Trek material contextualizing ships in human terms. Everything's just inconceivably large.

Funny you say that after a post about Star Wars, since when it comes to the capital ships star trek is... a bit more restrained.



Enterprise was explicitly designed to be the same size as a 1960s US Navy carrier.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 19, 2021

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

I spent way too much of my high school years playing the FASA Star Trek board game and collecting every single ship recognition manual they had. They only had the exterior tri-views but they put some real thought into trying to make up roles for the various ships and explain the history of the various races' design practices. I'm nostalgic enough that I kind of want to go re-buy them but pragmatic enough to know that I'd also need to buy a new set of rules (so I could understand the stats) and before I knew it, I'd be $200 into materials for a game I have no desire to ever play again.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

uber_stoat
Jan 21, 2001





Pillbug

i love made up tech diagrams for sci fi stuff. i used to have this, no idea where it went.




  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply