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Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Everyone had to visit Vic Fontaine like every day almost once he showed up but Nog wanted to just spend a few days in there after going through some real poo poo and they had to hold an intervention.

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Lenny Nero
Apr 14, 2007

I'm the magic man...The Santa Claus of the subconscious

Laterite posted:

Vic Fontaine rules, is what I'm saying.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







Neo Rasa posted:

Everyone had to visit Vic Fontaine like every day almost once he showed up but Nog wanted to just spend a few days in there after going through some real poo poo and they had to hold an intervention.

Nog made it too real, he was killing the vibe.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Vic is a better therapist than the actual therapist.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008








I never really liked his singing, a tad nasal.

DrBouvenstein
Feb 28, 2007

I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.


Nebakenezzer posted:


You have an Lt. who for some reason has been kept an ensign because otherwise the senior officers wouldn't have a punching bag

Didn't Paris, who, BTW, only had a temporary re-commission as part of some reduced sentencing agreement, get demoted to ensign then promoted back to Lt without Harry ever getting a promotion?

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







Ghost Leviathan posted:

Vic is a better therapist than the actual therapist.

Garak's takedown of Ezri is devastating.

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017



If Trek has to be all dark and poo poo can we just do shows about the Cardassians where we see them scheme and bluster and ham it up?

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001



I watched What You Leave Behind and man Garak gets a pretty brutal ending.

Peachfart posted:

If Trek has to be all dark and poo poo can we just do shows about the Cardassians where we see them scheme and bluster and ham it up?

DS9 is funny because while I disagree that it was dark trek, really, since it just re-affirmed that the Federation and Star Trek at its core were values worth defending, it's probably for the best that it never went beyond 7 seasons because it was already starting to turn by season 7.

I also read that for the 25th anniversary the old writers pitched a new season and it sounded absolutely awful. A bunch of characters have been killed! Everything sucks! I know it was probably pitched jokingly but apparently the lessons learned from the last 20-25 years of TV is "grind the life out of your characters and setting."

Dreylad fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jun 20, 2020

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Dreylad posted:

I watched What You Leave Behind and man Garak gets a pretty brutal ending.

fun fact: he is physically assaulted by every major crewmember except jadzia

tbh like literally not a single good thing happens to him in the entire show.


But on that note, that final scene in the final episode was cut from the initial airing, despite him being a very popular character. so if you were watching it live the first time he basically just disappears.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Dreylad posted:

I watched What You Leave Behind and man Garak gets a pretty brutal ending.


DS9 is funny because while I disagree that it was dark trek, really, since it just re-affirmed that the Federation and Star Trek at its core were values worth defending, it's probably for the best that it never went beyond 7 seasons because it was already starting to turn by season 7.

I also read that for the 25th anniversary the old writers pitched a new season and it sounded absolutely awful. A bunch of characters have been killed! Everything sucks! I know it was probably piftched jokingly but apparently the lessons learned from the last 20-25 years of TV is "grind the life out of your characters and setting."

Didn't actually do this with Babylon 5 like they made a movie relatively recently and it was just like Sheridan in front of a bunch of green screens of scenery talking about stuff?

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost


it's bizarre to have Ezri be a counselor, just based on the balance of the show, because both Vic and Quark already fill that function.

tbh, Ezri should have left because she's trill and been like 'you're all nice but I'm off to my next life, like I'm supposed to' and then we get a Federation idealist, since once they take the stupid gmo route with Bashir he's no longer that character. but maybe not an optimist. I'd have liked to have seen a female Vulcan, perhaps, who sees the opportunities inherent in the war.

This is because though sisko loves 2 bitch about the federation (half of ds9 is casting shade at tng), the federation the show is sniping at becomes increasingly distant as tng and its characters/events become further separated. it would have helped the show a lot to have a very standard Starfleet character to bounce things off of, and to further show when she's actually right (thematically, that the federation is right)

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



Dreylad posted:

I watched What You Leave Behind and man Garak gets a pretty brutal ending.

Because I love Andrew Robinson, I read the book he wrote using the character diary he kept for 7(?) years. It makes Garak's post-dominion life on Cardassia a little more positive. Basically Cardassia starts politically functioning again, and after some soul searching he sees the traditional party reforming (IE the dumb militarist dudes who caused so much devistation) and a democrat alternative, which Garak becomes an important figure in.

DrBouvenstein posted:

Didn't Paris, who, BTW, only had a temporary re-commission as part of some reduced sentencing agreement, get demoted to ensign then promoted back to Lt without Harry ever getting a promotion?

Yep!

And Harry at one point is killed and replaced with an alternate dimension Harry which everybody just forgets about

For that matter, Seven of Nine comes onboard and acts like a management consultant most of the time, bossing everyone around because she's charmed the Captian

Aglet56
Sep 1, 2011


Pick posted:

it's bizarre to have Ezri be a counselor, just based on the balance of the show, because both Vic and Quark already fill that function.

tbh, Ezri should have left because she's trill and been like 'you're all nice but I'm off to my next life, like I'm supposed to' and then we get a Federation idealist, since once they take the stupid gmo route with Bashir he's no longer that character. but maybe not an optimist. I'd have liked to have seen a female Vulcan, perhaps, who sees the opportunities inherent in the war.

This is because though sisko loves 2 bitch about the federation (half of ds9 is casting shade at tng), the federation the show is sniping at becomes increasingly distant as tng and its characters/events become further separated. it would have helped the show a lot to have a very standard Starfleet character to bounce things off of, and to further show when she's actually right (thematically, that the federation is right)

i like ezri a lot as a character but this also sounds pretty good

ezri is a big influence imo on the character of marcy in Travelers. both are kind of classic sci-fi explorations of the impact of memory on personhood

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I did like the Ezri episodes with the serial killer and her messed up family, though.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.


So I just watched the episode with the "paranoid replicant" Miles

Why are we supposed to assume that Miles was the clone, and it wasn't just all a plot by the Paradan extremists to get their own operative established in DS9? Garak wouldn't buy this for a second. Hell, the Paradan Clone Miles wouldn't even have to be programmed to act as an operative. By the mere act of helping the Federation and DS9 ferret out a mole and foil a dangerous plot, they've established themselves as trustworthy and cast the Paradan government as duplicitous. They'll be in much better standing during the peace talks, with the Federation giving them the benefit of the doubt at every turn.

Miles died again, oops

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



XboxPants posted:

So I just watched the episode with the "paranoid replicant" Miles

Why are we supposed to assume that Miles was the clone, and it wasn't just all a plot by the Paradan extremists to get their own operative established in DS9? Garak wouldn't buy this for a second. Hell, the Paradan Clone Miles wouldn't even have to be programmed to act as an operative. By the mere act of helping the Federation and DS9 ferret out a mole and foil a dangerous plot, they've established themselves as trustworthy and cast the Paradan government as duplicitous. They'll be in much better standing during the peace talks, with the Federation giving them the benefit of the doubt at every turn.

Miles died again, oops

It's like they were writing the episode without a clone but were like "If we kill Miles here who will we make suffer every week."

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Aglet56 posted:

i like ezri a lot as a character but this also sounds pretty good

ezri is a big influence imo on the character of marcy in Travelers. both are kind of classic sci-fi explorations of the impact of memory on personhood

I think she's a perfectly good character but I also think that she's not as helpful as another type of character would've been, and I actually do respect the point that they're trying to make with the Trill, and I do sort of like the episodes where an alien makes an alien decision and the audience is supposed to sort of think about it for a while. They're sorry that she's gone, it feels like she should be able to stay, but that's not how our culture works and she's confident with the decision moving forward

I would've still kept her for a while, but maybe send her off in a two-parter about a third of the way through the season

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Honestly I feel it'd be a bit weird if they established everything about the Trill and didn't have the symbiote passed on to a new host at some point. They kinda fumbled on establishing that with Curzon and Jadzia since we didn't see enough of Curzon to get a feel for what the differences were.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I feel like he got more characterization than she did half the time

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Pick posted:

I feel like he got more characterization than she did half the time

I can definitely name more strong, driving traits of Curzon than I can of Jadzia, despite Curzon having like 1% as much screen time.

"Show don't tell" is generally good advice but DS9 managed to pull off a lot with Curzon and Morn all from "tell."

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Nebakenezzer posted:

For that matter, Seven of Nine comes onboard and acts like a management consultant most of the time, bossing everyone around because she's charmed the Captian

lol this is an incredibly amusing description. remember the episode where Voyager runs into the super-consultants that want to hire Seven of Nine?


god, Voyager was intensely 90s

Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 21, 2020

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Pick posted:

it's bizarre to have Ezri be a counselor, just based on the balance of the show, because both Vic and Quark already fill that function.

tbh, Ezri should have left because she's trill and been like 'you're all nice but I'm off to my next life, like I'm supposed to' and then we get a Federation idealist, since once they take the stupid gmo route with Bashir he's no longer that character. but maybe not an optimist. I'd have liked to have seen a female Vulcan, perhaps, who sees the opportunities inherent in the war.

This is because though sisko loves 2 bitch about the federation (half of ds9 is casting shade at tng), the federation the show is sniping at becomes increasingly distant as tng and its characters/events become further separated. it would have helped the show a lot to have a very standard Starfleet character to bounce things off of, and to further show when she's actually right (thematically, that the federation is right)

i agree with your thoughts on ezri being a counselor and dax should have left.

although, there's a part of me that wonders if dax should have just been killed altogether. like, i'm not a fan of the "kill her off just because the actor is leaving" thing, but if you're gonna do it why not go all the way and really rip a hole in sisko's heart? sorry ben, the old man's not there for you any more. make the war really hurt him in a lasting way.


i don't see a female vulcan happening though. i don't think the writers/producers would have been on board for that. i'm cool with it, although i think i'd be even happier about an andorian; i'm not sure we've ever seen a starfleet andorian outside of TAS

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



killing Jadzia was good at the time, but retroactively sucked when they couldn't get image rights to use her in any of the flashbacks in the finale

Angepain
Jul 13, 2012

what keeps happening to my clothes


jadzia only left the show because rick berman wouldn't stop being a massive sexist to Terry Farrell iirc so it's not like it was even a decision made for creative reasons. i don't know what exactly my point is in saying this other than "gently caress rick berman", but, gently caress rick berman

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Angepain posted:

jadzia only left the show because rick berman wouldn't stop being a massive sexist to Terry Farrell iirc so it's not like it was even a decision made for creative reasons. i don't know what exactly my point is in saying this other than "gently caress rick berman", but, gently caress rick berman

It sucks because IIRC she's talked about how because of how she was being treated she didn't realize the amount of clout she did actually have as a popular regular on the show, and that if she knew better, since everyone knew the last season was coming up she would have demanded to be a recurring character instead of a regular and been able to do like four episodes or whatever in the final season.

Either way gently caress Rick Berman. Terry Farrell owns, like look at the improvement in her performance from Hellraiser 3 a year earlier to DS9, it's crazy (obviously the cast was the least of that movie's problems but still).

gently caress Rick Berman.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





Neo Rasa posted:

gently caress Rick Berman.

If there's one plinkett meme that deserves to be repeated, its gently caress YOU RICK BERMAN, YOU RUINED THIS TOO? WHAT IS IT WITH RICKS?

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Neo Rasa posted:

It sucks because IIRC she's talked about how because of how she was being treated she didn't realize the amount of clout she did actually have as a popular regular on the show, and that if she knew better, since everyone knew the last season was coming up she would have demanded to be a recurring character instead of a regular and been able to do like four episodes or whatever in the final season.

That was actually her demand, she wanted to go part-time so she could start doing other stuff, and figured it should be no big deal since they had a lot of other poo poo to do in the season and could get by just fine with only having her on for like 13 episodes of the season.


Instead Rick Berman went all shithead power-trip and said "nuh-uh it's all or nothing"

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

like suddenly jadzia was going to have something important to do

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

would have been a nice fuckin change

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

That was actually her demand, she wanted to go part-time so she could start doing other stuff, and figured it should be no big deal since they had a lot of other poo poo to do in the season and could get by just fine with only having her on for like 13 episodes of the season.


Instead Rick Berman went all shithead power-trip and said "nuh-uh it's all or nothing"

That's so hosed up, like WHY, especially since:


Pick posted:

like suddenly jadzia was going to have something important to do


I mean it's a stupid question, I know why, gently caress Rick Berman.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Tony Todd is so fuckin' good in the episodes he's in in both roles he's done.

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002


I never watched DS9, I want to hear more about Worf being a total failure.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




as soon as he arrives on ds9 he repeatedly antagonizes odo about security on the station by first loving up his investigation despite being told by literally everyone to stop being stupid. then he gets into an argument

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzhgEGeKcbo

where he looks like a dumbass so he moves his quarters to the defiant because hes unable to adjust like every other person thats ever gone to ds9

he blows up a ('thankfully' revealed to be empty) civilian transport ship that decloaks in front of him and then assaults the other side's lawyer in the middle of a trial, gets into physical fights with senior staff, lets a really important cardassian contact die because he cant properly ambush three unaware enemy soldiers with two starfleet officers, has to have chief obrien tell him how to treat starfleet personnel who are lower rank than him, cant stop pissing off all the people who are good at their job because all he can do is say stuff like "it is not honorable", etc

hes just a complete mess

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jun 22, 2020

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





Verviticus posted:

he blows up a ('thankfully' revealed to be empty) civilian transport ship that decloaks in front of him and then assaults the other side's lawyer in the middle of a trial,

That episode is awesome in literally every way, don't lump it into Worf's hot mess-ness in the rest of DS9

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017




Why not?!?

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Sanguinia posted:

That episode is awesome in literally every way, don't lump it into Worf's hot mess-ness in the rest of DS9

a lot of worf eps and scenes are very good and that episode ruled but he still let a lawyer trick worf into punching him three times

a klingon lawyer wildly outsmarted him

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008








Worf is dumb as hell and his adherence to Klingon honor and whatnot has ruined his entire house. Idk how big a Klingon house is but worf ruined the lives of idk dozens of people just so he could do the honorable thing without ever even consulting them or taking them into consideration at all.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

I never watched DS9, I want to hear more about Worf being a total failure.

He's a weeaboo for Klingon culture, and so is his wife

But when Michael Dorn signed up for DS9, it was literally put into his contract that he was supposed to be a badass

And admittedly, Worf on DS9 is not being told not to do his job 24/7. He also murders Gowron, becomes the Emperor for like a minute, and then says "Yeah, Martok should be Emperor" which is not only badass but also correct

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Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



Neo Rasa posted:

Tony Todd is so fuckin' good in the episodes he's in in both roles he's done.

He is, shoulda been a regular cast member. Though "Hey, erase my brother's identity so he doesn't kill himself" is a little hosed up

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