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McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005








Nebakenezzer posted:

Similarly, it always irked me slightly that the Vorta are described as having no aesthetic sense, and I'm sure that's impossible for an intelligent being

my dude have you been to nexusmods

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FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Lead out in cuffs posted:

Yeah other weird pop-psychology stuff is how when they replaced Bareil's brain with a "positronic matrix", he had all his memories, but lost the "spark of life". That set up a weird dichotomy whereby organic beings had special spiritual properties which androids and the like couldn't have.

This even propagates to games that are heavily influenced by DS9 (like Stellaris), where spiritualists automatically hate robots, and robots can't get psionics, because *reasons*.

I would assume it'd be the other way around, like he'd probably have huge memory loss or personality change but retain his "soul"

There was a nice conundrum in the voyager episode where the doctor wanted his memory banks programmed with more knowledge of music but B'lanna wouldn't let him because deleting his brain would fundamentally change his person.


Nebakenezzer posted:

Similarly, it always irked me slightly that the Vorta are described as having no aesthetic sense, and I'm sure that's impossible for an intelligent being

They're at least colorblind from aeons of genetic selection

E: Like they dont have taste, but they like chewing food. So they probably got something on upstairs

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Maybe the vorta are just deep in depressive anhedonia.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008








Nebakenezzer posted:

Similarly, it always irked me slightly that the Vorta are described as having no aesthetic sense, and I'm sure that's impossible for an intelligent being

Have you seen the clothes they wear? Or the makeup?

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



spankmeister posted:

Have you seen the clothes they wear? Or the makeup?

Their clothes are perfect, they are multicolors that shift, that's perfect for agents and diplomats

McSpanky posted:

my dude have you been to nexusmods

No, and now I'm slightly worried what that is

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


Tulip posted:

Maybe the vorta are just deep in depressive anhedonia.

gently caress, same.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
FAT CUNT

Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

It's really interesting how Garak is one of the recurring lizard-brain Cardassians and a ruthless, amoral spymaster, but almost all of his episodes and main arcs are specifically about his emotional vulnerability. Feels like it brings home the theme that Cardassians are people like anyone else, and their society doesn't value the care a person needs to function properly, while ironically the Federation and Bajoran crew are the ones who care about Garak's wellbeing and intervene when he's having a breakdown.

what's especially interesting is this is exactly a weakness because he gets used and then discarded by the federation also. like viewed on its own, his storyline is not especially gratifying

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
FAT CUNT

Nap Ghost

in camp 371 he calls out sentiment as a weakness and though the show is like, implying that he's wrong (obviously), the show itself fails to make it an incorrect assessment from his point of view, particularly from that point forward

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I think the point is more his failure to establish connections and emotional stability is what makes it a weakness from his POV.

And I think it might be Vorta more simply aren't taught/programmed anything about aesthetic sense at all, and having very weak senses just compounds that. It comes to mind that it actually makes perfect sense that Weyoun takes to Dabo- gambling is the only vice he's capable of enjoying.

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


I always got the impression that the Vorta we see in the show are very, very different from the race they were before the Founders got their hands on them. Assuming such a race even existed and they weren't just created from scratch.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005








Polaron posted:

I always got the impression that the Vorta we see in the show are very, very different from the race they were before the Founders got their hands on them. Assuming such a race even existed and they weren't just created from scratch.

They outright state as much, the Vorta were barely-sentient arboreal primates uplifted with Dominion genetic engineering into their current state.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008








Polaron posted:

I always got the impression that the Vorta we see in the show are very, very different from the race they were before the Founders got their hands on them. Assuming such a race even existed and they weren't just created from scratch.

In the episode where weyoun 5(?) defects he explains the origin story of the Vorta, they were created from monkeys.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
FAT CUNT

Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I think the point is more his failure to establish connections and emotional stability is what makes it a weakness from his POV.


I just think there was a huge divide between what the show thought it was doing, and often what it was doing

for example, cardassia flips at the last moment to be on the "right side" and clearly that was the wrong move since the federation sure as hell wasn't going to orbitally bombard cardassia prime like the dominion did? and the war was a done deal anyway. so "punish the cardassians" was definitely a box they decided they needed to check, but it ends up being a punishment for a rare decision to do the right thing. it's loving weird.

Slamhound
Mar 27, 2010


The origins of the Vorta as stated in Treachery, Faith, and The Great River are presented as both fact and myth.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=I1BUsZ7BSC8

The Founders have the technological capability for such genetic manipulation, but the story itself doesn’t really hold up to and is more likely to be the sort of thing you’d tell a subordinate to keep them in-and loving-their place.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




It's a tricky thing, since by implication it doesn't seem out of character for the Founders to 'reward' a species that showed them immediate kindness in a way that makes sure their species survives as long as the Dominion does, and by making them useful- since the takeaway from that experience for the Founders may have been that the species is clearly tractable and social.

Would go with how the alliance with the Breen goes much better to the point where they're given Cardassian worlds, and the Tosk is iirc outright stated in some EU materials to be basically a variant Jem'Hadar, or a species given similar traits (not needing food, great strength and inbuilt invisibility) to act as ideal game for a well-behaved subservient species. The Dominion has carrots and sticks, and it's clear they have a creative streak in their genetic engineering, given how horrifically sadistic the engineered plague was.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




ive always wondered how much of the dominion was actually developed by changelings versus their underlings. like did the changelings as a group develop their genetic engineering capabilities or was it a pre-vorta species they subjugated

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Every species in the Gamma Quandrant is just a changeling that forgot

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




One EU book apparently had the Changelings be a result of their own genetic engineering, which I think would make sense.

I still reckon that given their shapeshifting seems to have no upper limit, and Laas could do FTL travel on his own by imitating a space creature, that most Changelings who don't have the rigid outlook probably end up ascending to Q tier or above.

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

changelings are space puritans too chickenshit to go Q

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

amazed odo didn't go off his first changeling fuckbuddy when he was all "i lived as a rabbit for several lifetimes"

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


I’m rewatching ds9 for the first time in years and I cannot overstate how much I love Avery Brooks’ Sisko. It’s like, what if Jack Torrence got just enough therapy and medication before going to the Overlook, so the fact that he is fated to be its caretaker only keeps him at a constant state of low level annoyance that occasionally spikes when something especially stupefying occurs.

Anonymous Zebra
Oct 21, 2005
Blending in like it ain't no thang

"Commander, you're saying you encountered a strange woman, can you describe her?"

*In extremely Sisko voice* Sisko: She was wearing reeeeddd

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Anonymous Zebra posted:

"Commander, you're saying you encountered a strange woman, can you describe her?"

*In extremely Sisko voice* Sisko: She was wearing reeeeddd

SISKO: All work and no jambalaya MAKES. BEN. GO. *slams hands on desk* CRAZY!

OBRIEN: I’ll, erm, get to work on the command level replicators, sir.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




mysterious frankie posted:

I’m rewatching ds9 for the first time in years and I cannot overstate how much I love Avery Brooks’ Sisko. It’s like, what if Jack Torrence got just enough therapy and medication before going to the Overlook, so the fact that he is fated to be its caretaker only keeps him at a constant state of low level annoyance that occasionally spikes when something especially stupefying occurs.

Like the Shining saturday morning cartoon where everybody all lives together in the big haunted hotel and there's wacky new guests, ghosts and/or ghost guests every week

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Like the Shining saturday morning cartoon where everybody all lives together in the big haunted hotel and there's wacky new guests, ghosts and/or ghost guests every week

If The Shining had come out a decade later Hannah Barbara would have has something airing on Saturday, and Danny would have had a cowardly talking hedge animal sidekick. I would associate the property with the cartoon more strongly than I do the source material.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




mysterious frankie posted:

If The Shining had come out a decade later Hannah Barbara would have has something airing on Saturday, and Danny would have had a cowardly talking hedge animal sidekick. I would associate the property with the cartoon more strongly than I do the source material.

Something something the Simpsons episode

Actually a big wacky haunted hotel does sound like a pretty good premise for a show. Could be to The Shining what Gravity Falls was to Twin Peaks.

PurplieNurplie
Jan 14, 2009


I knew DS9 was going to be special during the pilot, where Brooks just delivers the hell out of "we can't just lEaVe her!!!"


I was thinking to myself, "oh man, we get this guy for seven seasons?"

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


PurplieNurplie posted:

I knew DS9 was going to be special during the pilot, where Brooks just delivers the hell out of "we can't just lEaVe her!!!"


I was thinking to myself, "oh man, we get this guy for seven seasons?"

I think I was about 12 when it started and a fan of tng since I was really little, and I ended up hating Sisko at first because he was mean to Picard. I really held a grudge for a while, because he was short with the man who ostensibly killed his wife.

Each time I go back to the series as an adult I love Brooks’ performance a little more. He’s having ridiculous amounts of fun in the role and it’s infectious.

mysterious frankie fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 24, 2020

Woebin
Feb 6, 2006





It's been too long since I properly watched DS9, but I remember thinking that Sisko was a great dad.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008








PurplieNurplie posted:

I knew DS9 was going to be special during the pilot, where Brooks just delivers the hell out of "we can't just lEaVe her!!!"

His anguished scream after he says that still haunts my dreams.

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017



Woebin posted:

It's been too long since I properly watched DS9, but I remember thinking that Sisko was a great dad.

Sisko is the only good dad in Star Trek that I remember.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008








Star trek was full of dads who wanted to kidnap their children to undergo some ridiculous ritual or keep them away from their mother for 16 years or to straight up kill them to hide their shame (looking at you, Dukat).

Anonymous Zebra
Oct 21, 2005
Blending in like it ain't no thang

Yes, Sisko is a good dad, and it was a very specific decision to have him portrayed as a good father in the show. There was a systemic problem (and there still is) of black father's being portrayed as being deadbeats or otherwise removed from their children's lives, leaving single moms to raise their children. The decision to portray Sisko as an attentive father who always found time to bond with his son was part of a lot of little things DS9 did in their portrayal of him that probably went over the heads of most white people watching the show.

EDIT: Incidentally, this is why Avery Brookes was PISSSED when the finale of the series had him literally ghosting out on his pregnant wife, and why he made them add lines that implied his little spirit journey would not be that long in corporeal time.

EDIT2: If you want to see a contemporary comparison to how black fathers can be portrayed poorly, go watch LOST and see how Micheal and WALT! are portrayed and where their stories end up.

Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Jul 24, 2020

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Reminded of Young Justice and criticism that came down to "Of all the plots they could have had for the black character, they went with 'my dad ran off to be a criminal'"

Black Manta having a half-Atlantean kid is interesting, but still.

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



Peachfart posted:

Sisko is the only good dad in Star Trek that I remember.

Rom's awkward and has his issues, but he was never a bad dad to Nog that I can recall? Sometimes was initially held back by his Ferengi background (like being skeptical of him attending Keiko's school) but always came through in the end.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




sisko is clearly the best but all of the ds9 fathers are fine. rom starts off a pretty lovely father because he starts off a pretty lovely character but by season 2 they figured out how to make him interesting and miles is fine if maybe a little short temper from constantly being tortured for 20 years or whatever happened this week

edit: of the heroes. dukat and damar maybe leave something to be desired

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mALFi3cO_Co

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




an ingenious solution

Woebin
Feb 6, 2006





Anonymous Zebra posted:

Yes, Sisko is a good dad, and it was a very specific decision to have him portrayed as a good father in the show. There was a systemic problem (and there still is) of black father's being portrayed as being deadbeats or otherwise removed from their children's lives, leaving single moms to raise their children. The decision to portray Sisko as an attentive father who always found time to bond with his son was part of a lot of little things DS9 did in their portrayal of him that probably went over the heads of most white people watching the show.

EDIT: Incidentally, this is why Avery Brookes was PISSSED when the finale of the series had him literally ghosting out on his pregnant wife, and why he made them add lines that implied his little spirit journey would not be that long in corporeal time.

EDIT2: If you want to see a contemporary comparison to how black fathers can be portrayed poorly, go watch LOST and see how Micheal and WALT! are portrayed and where their stories end up.
Oh yeah, I'm kind of aware of the issues with Black dad portrayals in media but this is still a side of Sisko that went over my head (surprise, I'm white as hell). It's a case of only noticing these things when they're bad, I think, for me anyway - if Sisko had been more in line with negative stereotypes about Black dads I might have noticed it and been disappointed that they play into those ideas, but when that's not happen as much I don't notice it even though it's much more rare.

I'm not doing a great job expressing this, I think, but in short: thanks for making this point, it gives me another reason why DS9 is the best Trek.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




That it goes completely without saying is rather the point. Though especially effective given the show wasn't shy about portraying the African-American experience, especially in the time travel episodes. Also think about how Sisko has to listen to Dukat's ranting about Bajorans. And in Past Tense when black Sisko and brown Bashir are thrown into the Sanctuary District, while Jadzia, who passes as an attractive white woman with tattoos, gets picked up by a tech bro.

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