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GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

427 TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, DEFENSIBLE NATIONAL TITLES AND COUNTING


It didn't work for them, rather spectacularly. Although that had more to do with it not really being a merger so much as a plundering.

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Sarcastro
Dec 28, 2000
Elite member of the Grammar Nazi Squad that

Lawman 0 posted:

In all honesty they probably would. Imagine trying to reintegrate guys and gals with presumed super ptsd, basically no interaction with regular society for years and still presumably having whatever enchantments that couldn't be taken away.

David D. Davidson posted:

That's actually the premise behind Violet Evergarden. I hear it's pretty good.

The David Brin book "The Postman" didn't have this as the premise, but it was a plot element eventually, and a pretty cool idea about how the government anticipated this problem and tried to create a counter for it.

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

Blade Runner had the right idea re: Super Soldiers. Go ahead and have them, just make sure they die before they can cause too much trouble.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




SolarFire2 posted:

Blade Runner had the right idea re: Super Soldiers. Go ahead and have them, just make sure they die before they can cause too much trouble.

That's pretty much a 40k thing with the Thunder Warriors, aka the Emperor's proto-Space Marines when he was conquering post-apocalyptic Earth and then killed them all when he was done.

Preem Palver
Jul 5, 2007


Ghost Leviathan posted:

That's pretty much a 40k thing with the Thunder Warriors, aka the Emperor's proto-Space Marines when he was conquering post-apocalyptic Earth and then killed them all when he was done.

The same thing was actually supposed to happen with the space marines. Several legions were deliberately crafted to become more unhinged and rebel after time; once the galaxy was unified the vast majority of space marines were supposed to wipe each other out in a series of brutal, isolated battles and then the imperium would mop up the survivors. But it kicked off earlier than Emperor expected and the Chaos gods made the rebelling marines a lot stronger than was anticipated, followed by one of the Primarchs trying to warn him through astral projection from halfway across the galaxy. The sheer psychic force of that stunt broke the Emperor's secret tech project for galactic travel that was both faster than warp travel and didn't rely on literally flying through hell. And so welp, 10k years later it's still a war-torn galaxy with renegade and chaos marines carving out their own mini empires and fighting in a continual back and forth with the imperium.

All of 40k is pretty much lovely tech and lovely dads/sons.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Preem Palver posted:

The same thing was actually supposed to happen with the space marines. Several legions were deliberately crafted to become more unhinged and rebel after time; once the galaxy was unified the vast majority of space marines were supposed to wipe each other out in a series of brutal, isolated battles and then the imperium would mop up the survivors. But it kicked off earlier than Emperor expected and the Chaos gods made the rebelling marines a lot stronger than was anticipated, followed by one of the Primarchs trying to warn him through astral projection from halfway across the galaxy. The sheer psychic force of that stunt broke the Emperor's secret tech project for galactic travel that was both faster than warp travel and didn't rely on literally flying through hell. And so welp, 10k years later it's still a war-torn galaxy with renegade and chaos marines carving out their own mini empires and fighting in a continual back and forth with the imperium.

All of 40k is pretty much lovely tech and lovely dads/sons.

I actually loving love that because it explains so much and fits so well that the Space Marines became as much a liability for the Imperium as a benefit.

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

Alternatively: The Killbot Solution. Engineer your supersoldiers to have a pre-set kill limit at which point they expire.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

Barudak posted:

Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans got mentioned and I gotta say the ending of the show being logistics>super soldiers was unexpected.

To an extent, you can say the same about the One Year War in the original series too. The Earth Federation initially turns the tide on Earth mainly using waves of conventional tanks and aircraft to overwhelm Zeon there. Then when they go back on the offensive in space they’re sending swarms of pretty good GM models against mostly inferior Zakus and Rick Doms, while the relative low numbers of high powered Gelgoogs (And all the one-off mobile armors, Newtype weapons, and whatnot) don’t really amount to much cause Zeon is reduced to sending barely trained cadets.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester


Child soldiers are the shittiest garbage tech in science fiction of all

GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

427 TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, DEFENSIBLE NATIONAL TITLES AND COUNTING


SolarFire2 posted:

Alternatively: The Killbot Solution. Engineer your supersoldiers to have a pre-set kill limit at which point they expire.

It worked for Zapp Brannigan.

Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010



SolarFire2 posted:

Alternatively: The Killbot Solution. Engineer your supersoldiers to have a pre-set kill limit at which point they expire.
Kill limit would be a good backstop for your killer robots. There are only 300 million soviets, so if Skynet has killed 301 million people, something has probably gone and it should turn off.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




RBA Starblade posted:

Child soldiers are the shittiest garbage tech in science fiction of all

Not scifi and also bleak as gently caress: some military commanders consider child soldiers better than adult soldiers, because they're less loyal to their civil community and therefore more loyal to the military, and are less likely to balk at dangerous orders (citation: Dancing in the Glory of Monsters chapter 10).

SolarFire2 posted:

Alternatively: The Killbot Solution. Engineer your supersoldiers to have a pre-set kill limit at which point they expire.

This reminds me that one of the significant advantages of early gunpowder weapons (as in, big rear end iron bombs that you throw from a catapult) was that your opponent can't fire them back at you. "Supersoldiers as very slow missiles" has a certain appeal to it.

Foxfire_ posted:

Kill limit would be a good backstop for your killer robots. There are only 300 million soviets, so if Skynet has killed 301 million people, something has probably gone and it should turn off.

There's no way the kind of person who thinks skynet is a good idea isn't thinking about collateral damage and upping that to a good 600 million.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Tulip posted:

Not scifi and also bleak as gently caress: some military commanders consider child soldiers better than adult soldiers, because they're less loyal to their civil community and therefore more loyal to the military, and are less likely to balk at dangerous orders (citation: Dancing in the Glory of Monsters chapter 10).

This is brought up in Gundam: Iron Blooded Orphans. The main characters' success at doing an impossible mission makes child soldiers the latest hot new military thing.

IIRC There's also a similar thing in the Universal Century, where after Amuro saves everyone's bacon people start talking about the Federation's "proud history of child soldiers" and such.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

Preem Palver posted:

The same thing was actually supposed to happen with the space marines. Several legions were deliberately crafted to become more unhinged and rebel after time; once the galaxy was unified the vast majority of space marines were supposed to wipe each other out in a series of brutal, isolated battles and then the imperium would mop up the survivors. But it kicked off earlier than Emperor expected and the Chaos gods made the rebelling marines a lot stronger than was anticipated, followed by one of the Primarchs trying to warn him through astral projection from halfway across the galaxy. The sheer psychic force of that stunt broke the Emperor's secret tech project for galactic travel that was both faster than warp travel and didn't rely on literally flying through hell. And so welp, 10k years later it's still a war-torn galaxy with renegade and chaos marines carving out their own mini empires and fighting in a continual back and forth with the imperium.

All of 40k is pretty much lovely tech and lovely dads/sons.

I've never heard this before, but it definitely sounds like something the Emperor would do.

upgunned shitpost
Jan 21, 2015



RBA Starblade posted:

Child soldiers are the shittiest garbage tech in science fiction of all

infant and geriatric soldier are total poo poo though, kids can at least aim for mediocrity

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Megillah Gorilla posted:

I've never heard this before, but it definitely sounds like something the Emperor would do.

The Space Wolves in particular iirc are heavily implied to be basically anti-Space Marine Space Marines, and possibly were involved in destroying the Lost Legions before the Heresy. Funny thing is over ten thousand years they drifted into becoming probably one of the friendliest Chapters as long as you don't cross them.


fartknocker posted:

To an extent, you can say the same about the One Year War in the original series too. The Earth Federation initially turns the tide on Earth mainly using waves of conventional tanks and aircraft to overwhelm Zeon there. Then when they go back on the offensive in space they’re sending swarms of pretty good GM models against mostly inferior Zakus and Rick Doms, while the relative low numbers of high powered Gelgoogs (And all the one-off mobile armors, Newtype weapons, and whatnot) don’t really amount to much cause Zeon is reduced to sending barely trained cadets.

Aren't Gelgoogs notoriously high-performance that are really difficult for rookies to get a hang of because they were designed around aces, too?

Zeon is also not too subtly based on Imperial Japan iirc and presumably having the same problem where they sent all their aces to get killed and by the end of the war they're struggling to maintain manpower against a foe that might as well have unlimited resources.

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Zeon is also not too subtly based on Imperial Japan iirc and presumably having the same problem where they sent all their aces to get killed and by the end of the war they're struggling to maintain manpower against a foe that might as well have unlimited resources.

There's a good smattering of Nazi Germany in there too, spending huge amounts of money and resources on wonder-tanks that can theoretically outclass anything else on the battlefield. But that just leads to a handful of models reaching the field while the quasi-Allies just keep churning out 'pretty good' GM's and 'very good' Gundams in numbers that can easily overwhelm the few Zeon units.

The King Tiger vs. Sherman/T-34 issue. IN SPAAACE!

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

Basically, yeah, it's a very heavy Nazi Germany vs the Allies vibe with it. Zeon keeps trying to create all sorts of war winning Newtype weapons, mobile armors, and limited run prototype suits that usually do gently caress all before being killed by Newtype teenagers, which comes at the expense of the Gelgoog getting its development delayed and production limited. They give as many of them to veteran pilots as they can, the first 30~ prototype machines all went to the Ace Corps, plus people like Char and Gato, but by the end of the war they simply don't have enough experienced or highly trained pilots left, so a lot are explicitly going to cadets who've barely flown. On the other side, the Federation puts most of their effort into a ton of basic GM models that are supposed to be very reliable machines, plus good pilot training aided by all the combat data from the Gundam, and it gives them a big edge at the end of the war.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlJ5j-hSUmQ

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.




The book "Long Way Gone" is a first hand account from an ex child-soldier and it's great (also harrowing)

Spoiler alert: everyone is on drugs all the time

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Brown-brown, cocaine mixed with gunpowder, comes to mind.

The idea of sci-fi tech that's shown to be deliberately badly made, designed and/or functioning I've mentioned is super interesting, and comes to mind a somewhat related concept- Dan Hibiki in Street Fighter is a character whose concept I've always found super interesting, I think because it's emphasised that he can use a genuine superpower in the same way that the protagonists do, but he's bad at it. He can demonstrably do the same techniques as the protagonists, but less effectively, and he's still pretty much a superhero by any standard, but just an incompetent, self-centred one held back by his ego. (Kinda like Booster Gold) And not even necessarily a bad person, since he has genuine friends and the dude who killed his dad even threw a fight against him to give him closure because he saw what that anger and grief had did to Dan and felt bad.

Also interesting that the latest game had an externalisation of Ryu's own dark side use techniques and moves suspiciously similar to Dan- and Dan's training was supposedly cut short specifically because of his (relatively) selfish intentions that would have corrupted him, implying it was for Dan's own safety as well as everyone else.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



So I picked up Starcraft 2 for the first time. I like it, it seems well done, an actual sequel to the original.

I have a dumb garbage tech observation, though. If you know the game one of the characters is Tychus the space marine, who's a convict sealed into space marine armor, which is like a tiny mech in that it's man-shaped but power-actuated. You see a lot of this guy in his suit. And it is making my brain itch. Maybe it's just the Warhammer-style shoulder-pads, but I swear the dude would have to have his arms permanently thrust out sideways , his forearms dangling down to make the proportions of that suit work.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



PS> Shittiest piece of garbage tech: a full face helmet that projects an image

Simulation syndrome would first make you motion sick with the virtual image, then you'd get motion sick just walking around not wearing it

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Nebakenezzer posted:

So I picked up Starcraft 2 for the first time. I like it, it seems well done, an actual sequel to the original.

I have a dumb garbage tech observation, though. If you know the game one of the characters is Tychus the space marine, who's a convict sealed into space marine armor, which is like a tiny mech in that it's man-shaped but power-actuated. You see a lot of this guy in his suit. And it is making my brain itch. Maybe it's just the Warhammer-style shoulder-pads, but I swear the dude would have to have his arms permanently thrust out sideways , his forearms dangling down to make the proportions of that suit work.

That problem has to go back to Gundam, at the very least. Anthro mech suits at any scale for aesthetic vibes just don't make a lot of sense, especially at 1:1 movement.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



At least in gundam your arms aren't in the mech's arms. Rewatching the cutscene where he's bolted in, yeah there's no way those shoulders work.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Probably because they're ripped right from 40k Space Marines, which are already their own subgenre of mock art for how hosed up their proportions must be. But at least they've been subject to intense physical modification from puberty onwards and are sometimes shown or at least described out of armour as being freakish walking fridges. And they're literally designed to basically be never outside their armour except for maintenance and cleaning.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006



One book mentions that Space Marines have proportionally freakishly small heads, which makes laugh.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Who What Now posted:

One book mentions that Space Marines have proportionally freakishly small heads, which makes laugh.

THE BAR
Oct 20, 2011

You know what might look better on your nose?




And they shall know no fear.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



Ghost Leviathan posted:

Probably because they're ripped right from 40k Space Marines, which are already their own subgenre of mock art for how hosed up their proportions must be. But at least they've been subject to intense physical modification from puberty onwards and are sometimes shown or at least described out of armour as being freakish walking fridges. And they're literally designed to basically be never outside their armour except for maintenance and cleaning.

Oh, good, I was worried it was just me.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!




Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink



the warner bros attack on titan movie is looking great!

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.




Normal humans in 40k often freak the gently caress out about Space Marines even when they're not in armour because they're giant gorilla men with hosed up proportions that move far too fast, real uncanny-valley poo poo.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Meatgrinder
Jul 11, 2003

Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55905354

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Fun thing about Gundams is that they're only mildly more unrealistic and fantastical than any other sci fi spacecraft

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Fun thing about Gundams is that they're only mildly more unrealistic and fantastical than any other sci fi spacecraft

They're the same size as a modern Jet Fighter and spend the majority of their screentime in zero-g, which negates all the issues with the legs. They're practically hard sic-fi compared to most of the stuff in the genre.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




galagazombie posted:

They're the same size as a modern Jet Fighter and spend the majority of their screentime in zero-g, which negates all the issues with the legs. They're practically hard sic-fi compared to most of the stuff in the genre.

Quite a lot of mechs are more analogous to jet fighters. Reminded of Zoids, which has a lot of parallels, complete with Zoid piloting being primarily a young person's game. (and the one person we DO see who has gray hair piloting a Zoid is in the Elephander, which is basically a mobile fortress that's never moving particularly fast, being based on an elephant. Also a pretty fun arc given he basically is too honourable for the outlaw no-limits zoid battle group and decides to roll with it when a Judge robot beats the poo poo out of their Dark Judge counterpart and chooses to register him and the Elephander as legitimate league warriors mid-battle) You even see the main characters exercising in their downtime on occasion.

I think Top Gun and various pilot media (including Star Wars) is a heavy influence on mecha and Gundam in particular, the Char types often being analogous to the Red Baron and Macross Plus even being described as Top Gun with mecha.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005




Speaking of Macross, the inbetween transformation form seems pretty pointless. Its a jet with arms and legs, the worst of both worlds. Also I don't remember anyone ever actually using it that much.

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Guyver
Dec 5, 2006



That's because it is pointless. It came from the toy not locking the legs and falling so they put it in the show.

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